pennysquire at ymail.com
Tue Aug 5 17:14:57 IST 2008
Craig, I've had further thoughts on this.
Both Jynnji-ryn and Yeynji-ryn are unlikely as both engine houses and ice-houses hadn't been around very long before Cornish died out as a community language.
Newcomen's patent was 1698, I think, first 20 beam engines in Cornwall 1720 or so. First ice house in Britain 1625 (Home Park, Hampton Court) probably not in Cornwall for some time after that - earliest one I've found is Pencarrow House, 1760, although there may have been earlier ones. First ice shipments to Britain from Norway 1820 etc.
So - on a completely different tack, it occurred to me that the first element may be LC 'Jarn', perhaps added to an existing house name 'Chi Ryn' thus Jarn + chi + ryn, mangled a bit into Jangye-ryn. The 'r' in 'jarn' could quite easily be lost in copying, etc. especially if the scribe, cartographer or whatever had no Cornish - which is highly likely. And the word 'jarn' was in use earlier than either engine houses or ice houses, and gardens much more common than either!
However, as you say, what we need are more historical spellings to be sure of the meaning.
----- Original Message ----
From: Craig Weatherhill <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, 1 August, 2008 7:56:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] jangye-ryn
Sorry, O jet-lagged one - have been busy with proof-reading (new book)
plus being seen (and photographed by the local paper) in suit, tie and
grey bowler hat on a horse-drawn vehicle at St Buryan Rally.
I still stick to "ice-house" or "cold store", unless any further
evidence turns up. And I know of quite a few of these - there's one,
for example, within sight of my house on the rhododendron-covered slopes
of Trengwainton Carn. Takes a bit of finding. Winnianton was a very
important manorial site, by the way, all the way from Domesday. I know
it's a modest farm now - all trace of the manor house has long gone,
same as at Kelynack. The name is Cornish gwynan, "white/fair place",
with Old English tun, "farm, settlement" added, and the nearby headland
is Pedngwinian to this day. I would, though, like to see more historic
references and spellings for Jangye-ryn.
I don't think that "engine house" comes into it, though. Firstly, the
word jynjy is (I think) one of Nance's inventions and, secondly, there
is no record of any mine in the area.
That initial Y occasionally becomes J in Late Cornish can be seen in
names like Venton Jean (fenten yeyn) and Chapel Jane (chapel yeyn -
although here yeyn is actually a corruption of ynyal, "desolate", the
old name for Gurnard's Head. An early reference to the chapel remains
was Inyall Chapell), as well as an Park an Jet (park an yet).
Thanks for the kind words about little Larns. She is still with us but
the advice from the vet is to let her enjoy summer and autumn but she
will not be able to withstand a cold winter. I may have to make a
pretty awful decision at that point. She is now so thin she looks like
she's walked out of Belsen (can no longer turn food into fat, and she
not only has two big meals a day - more than I have - but demolishes
them with obvious relish.). However, she is full of herself, despite
near-blindness and is otherwise extremely well and very happy (and can
still trot and canter around freely, too). It's the fact that she is so
fit and obviously content with life that makes it all so difficult.
However, she is 37 years of age, which is one hell of an age, and she's
been with me for the last 21 of those, becoming the family I don't
have. Losing the old dear will leave a huge hole. Of course, there's
Paddy, the beer-swilling Irishman, and the giant Shogun (all 18 hands of
him), but neither of them actually belong to me.
Penny Squire wrote:
> I may still be a little jet-lagged (or possibly sampan-lagged!) but I
> can't find any response from you to my comments on jangye-ryn (see
> below, to save you digging through the archives) and I am curious as
> to your view on my suggestion.
> As a compensation for letting myself in for an unexpected trip East on
> top of the expected ten days elsewhere I'm now taking four weeks off,
> so can catch up on Cornish stuff - you guys have been busy!
> Really sorry to hear about Larnie, Craig. I had to face losing a horse
> in my teens and it still twists me inside.
> Jangye-ryn cannot be 'ice-house'!
> What would an ice-house be doing near Winnianton, a modest farm on the
> cliffs north of Mullion? As far as I know, only manor houses and such
> could afford to have ice-houses built, plus all the time, trouble and
> expense of hauling ice in winter, mixing with salt, etc. Pencarrow had
> one, built in the early 1800s, I don't know of any other in Cornwall,
> but there may have been some. I doubt if ice houses were known in
> Cornwall much before then, and this place name is surely older.
> Jangye-ryn almost certainly is jynnji-rynn or
> jynnji-run (engine house [on a] promontory, or engine house [on a]
> slope) - with both the 'j' and the 'g' of 'jangye' pronounced as in
> 'jail'. It has an 'a' where one would expect a 'y' or an 'i'
> admittedly, but that's Cornish place names for you!
> And, of course, the word order is Cornish.
> I do hope that this example of historical sloppy spelling by some unknown
> scribe/cartographer does not encourage any more theories about vocalic
> or dialects.
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
> No, yeth should not be pronounced that way (and the only attested form
> of that word is, in fact <eyth> in Tregear). The soft j or zh sound for
> initial Y is confined to very few words, of which yeyn and yet are the
> most commonly found.. I think this also turns up in the coastal name
> Jangye-ryn (Gunwalloe) which (apart from having suffered reversal to an
> English word order) appears to contain the compound yeyn-jy (ice-house,
> cold store).
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