[Spellyans] -ita
Craig Weatherhill
weatherhill at freenet.co.uk
Tue Jul 1 14:24:11 BST 2008
Mutation is a curious thing in historical practice. It is so often
ignored and, in some cases introduced where it should not occur
according to the rules. In place-name history, for example, we have so
many Tremaynes where the name should (strictly) be Treven/Treveyn. Not
far from me is the hill called Dry Carn. This was originally (c. 1300)
Tricarn, "three cairns" from a line of three Bronze Age barrows that
once existed there. According to the rules this should be Try Harn, but
it never is. 6 historic spellings give - carn and never -harn.
Bos- names are, in many cases lenited and, in many cases, are not.
I note, too, that, preceding an initial R in a qualifier, the final S of
a generic remains in its unassibilated Old Cornish form. So, in West
Cornwall (where you should never find Bod- Bot-), we actually find
Redruth, Bodrifty, Bodriggy.
Also, a final S of a generic often causes provection in the qualifier,
even when that S disappears, so Nan(s)pean, Rospannel.
In names like Botallack, we have no indication of whether this is Bos-
or Bod-/Bot- (although as far west as that location is, we must expect
Bos-). No historically recorded form gives the full generic and, in the
recommended place-name forms that I am compiling, I am offering <Bo'talek>.
Craig
Jon Mills wrote:
> Ty a lever gwir.
> Jon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "nicholas williams"
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] -ita
> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:55:49 +0100
>
> If the expression in gwir were really *yn whyr 'truly', there
> would in all Cornish literature be at least one example
> with the expected mutation after yn. There are *no examples*
> anywhere.
> I have found the following attestations:
>
> yn gvyr x 2
> in gvyr x 1
> in guir x 2
> en guir x 1
> yn guyr x 4
> en gwyr x 1
> in gwyr x 1
> in gwyre x 1
>
> Notice incidentally that <in> is as common in the texts as <yn> in
> this phrase.
> Caradar had already noticed that the form was yn gwyr rather than
> yn whyr in his Supplement to Cornish Simplified. We can be quite
> sure that in gwir/yn gwyr means 'in truth' rather than 'truly'.
>
> Nicholas
>
>
> On 30 Jun 2008, at 23:36, A. J. Trim wrote:
>
>> Yes, I think you have it about right in KS, regarding <*i*> and
>> <*y*>, though I'm still not sure about *bÿs*/*bës* words.
>>
>> Why are *despit* and *constrin* quoted as exceptions? Surely,
>> these have stressed <*i*> = [i:], and so are regular.
>> I would also expect [I@] and [i:@] to be <*ia*> (e.g. *fia *"to
>> flee"), and [ja] to be <*ya*>(e.g. *redya *"to read") and I would
>> expect final <-*y*>, e.g. *tyby* "to suppose", *chy* "house".
>>
>> Initial <*i*> would be OK but there are exceptions (e.g. *yw*
>> "is", *y* "his", *yma*/*ymons*, *ytho*). These will need to be in
>> a very short list else they will need to be predictable
>> -- "function" word is too vague a term.
>> What happens when a word starts with <*gy*-> or <*gi*-> under
>> soft mutation? Does it become <*y*-> or <*i*-> respectively, or
>> do they all become <*i*->?
>> How do we know whether *yn gwir* is "truly" (with missing
>> mutation) or *in gwir* "in truth", and does "in truth" mean
>> "truly" anyway?
>> I can live with it, if that is what you want to do, but I think
>> that I would prefer not to have this initial <*i*> rule. It
>> appears to be cosmetic only and without function.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andrew J. Trim
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* nicholas williams <mailto:njawilliams at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 30, 2008 6:20 PM
>> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
>> <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] -ita
>>
>> KS uses y for [I] everywhere except
>> in derivatives of monosyllables in <i>, e.g. gwir, gwiryoneth;
>> tir, tiryow
>> and also where a final long i occurs in a stressed syllable
>> despit, constrin.
>> initially, e.g. istyna, inclynya, in, indella, etc.
>> yn adverbial is distinguished from in 'in': yn tâ but in gwir.
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>>
>> On 30 Jun 2008, at 18:16, Terry Corbett wrote:
>>
>>> Since we have a [I] pronunciation we should use a < y >.
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:42 AM, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com
>>> <mailto:ajtrim at msn.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> Either make the choice between <*i*> and <*y*> simple and
>>> consistent or say that either may be used optionally
>>> anywhere, or discard one and just use the other.
>>> Please don't leave us with the current unpredictable mishmash.
>>>
>>> By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... *deray*,
>>> perhaps ... or *dere*, or *derai*?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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> _____________________________________
> Dr. Jon Mills,
> School of European Culture and Languages,
> University of Kent
>
>
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