[Spellyans] -ita

Craig Weatherhill weatherhill at freenet.co.uk
Tue Jul 1 14:24:11 IST 2008


Mutation is a curious thing in historical practice.  It is so often 
ignored and, in some cases introduced where it should not occur 
according to the rules.  In place-name history, for example, we have so 
many Tremaynes where the name should (strictly) be Treven/Treveyn.  Not 
far from me is the hill called Dry Carn.  This was originally (c. 1300) 
Tricarn, "three cairns" from a line of three Bronze Age barrows that 
once existed there.  According to the rules this should be Try Harn, but 
it never is.  6 historic spellings give - carn and never -harn.

Bos- names are, in many cases lenited and, in many cases, are not. 

I note, too, that, preceding an initial R in a qualifier, the final S of 
a generic remains in its unassibilated Old Cornish form.  So, in West 
Cornwall (where you should never find Bod- Bot-), we actually find 
Redruth, Bodrifty, Bodriggy.

Also, a final S of a generic often causes provection in the qualifier, 
even when that S disappears, so Nan(s)pean, Rospannel.

In names like Botallack, we have no indication of whether this is Bos- 
or Bod-/Bot- (although as far west as that location is, we must expect 
Bos-).  No historically recorded form gives the full generic and, in the 
recommended place-name forms that I am compiling, I am offering <Bo'talek>.

Craig



Jon Mills wrote:
> Ty a lever gwir.
> Jon
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "nicholas williams"
>     To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"
>     Subject: Re: [Spellyans] -ita
>     Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:55:49 +0100
>
>     If the expression in gwir were really *yn whyr 'truly', there
>     would in all Cornish literature be at least one example
>     with the expected mutation after yn. There are *no examples*
>     anywhere. 
>     I have found the following attestations:
>
>     yn gvyr x 2
>     in gvyr x 1
>     in guir x 2
>     en guir x 1
>     yn guyr x 4
>     en gwyr x 1
>     in gwyr x 1
>     in gwyre x 1
>
>     Notice incidentally that <in> is as common in the texts as <yn> in
>     this phrase.
>     Caradar had already noticed that the form was yn gwyr rather than
>     yn whyr in his Supplement to Cornish Simplified. We can be quite
>     sure that in gwir/yn gwyr means 'in truth' rather than 'truly'.
>
>     Nicholas
>
>
>     On 30 Jun 2008, at 23:36, A. J. Trim wrote:
>
>>     Yes, I think you have it about right in KS, regarding <*i*> and
>>     <*y*>, though I'm still not sure about *bÿs*/*bës* words.
>>      
>>     Why are *despit* and *constrin* quoted as exceptions? Surely,
>>     these have stressed <*i*> = [i:], and so are regular.
>>     I would also expect [I@] and [i:@] to be <*ia*> (e.g. *fia *"to
>>     flee"), and [ja] to be <*ya*>(e.g. *redya *"to read") and I would
>>     expect final <-*y*>, e.g. *tyby* "to suppose", *chy* "house".
>>      
>>     Initial <*i*> would be OK but there are exceptions (e.g. *yw*
>>     "is", *y* "his", *yma*/*ymons*, *ytho*). These will need to be in
>>     a very short list else they will need to be predictable
>>     -- "function" word is too vague a term.
>>     What happens when a word starts with <*gy*-> or <*gi*-> under
>>     soft mutation? Does it become <*y*-> or <*i*-> respectively, or
>>     do they all become <*i*->?
>>     How do we know whether *yn gwir* is "truly" (with missing
>>     mutation) or *in gwir* "in truth", and does "in truth" mean
>>     "truly" anyway?
>>     I can live with it, if that is what you want to do, but I think
>>     that I would prefer not to have this initial <*i*> rule. It
>>     appears to be cosmetic only and without function.
>>      
>>      
>>     Regards,
>>      
>>     Andrew J. Trim
>>      
>>      
>>
>>     *From:* nicholas williams <mailto:njawilliams at gmail.com>
>>     *Sent:* Monday, June 30, 2008 6:20 PM
>>     *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
>>     <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] -ita
>>
>>     KS uses y for [I] everywhere except
>>     in derivatives of monosyllables in <i>, e.g. gwir, gwiryoneth;
>>     tir, tiryow
>>     and also where a final long i occurs in a stressed syllable
>>     despit, constrin.
>>     initially, e.g. istyna, inclynya, in, indella, etc.
>>     yn adverbial is distinguished from in 'in': yn tâ but in gwir.
>>
>>     Nicholas
>>
>>
>>     On 30 Jun 2008, at 18:16, Terry Corbett wrote:
>>
>>>     Since we have a [I] pronunciation we should use a < y >.
>>>
>>>     Terry
>>>
>>>     On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:42 AM, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com
>>>     <mailto:ajtrim at msn.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Yes.
>>>          
>>>         Either make the choice between <*i*> and <*y*> simple and
>>>         consistent or say that either may be used optionally
>>>         anywhere, or discard one and just use the other.
>>>         Please don't leave us with the current unpredictable mishmash.
>>>          
>>>         By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... *deray*,
>>>         perhaps ... or *dere*, or *derai*?
>>>          
>>>          
>>>         Regards,
>>>          
>>>         Andrew J. Trim
>>>          
>>>          
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Spellyans mailing list
>>>     Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>     http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Spellyans mailing list
>>     Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>     http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Spellyans mailing list
>>     Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>     http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Spellyans mailing list
>     Spellyans at kernowek.net
>     http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
>
> _____________________________________
> Dr. Jon Mills,
> School of European Culture and Languages,
> University of Kent
>   
>
> -- 
> Be Yourself @ mail.com!
> Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
> Get a *Free* Account at www.mail.com <http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx>!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>   





More information about the Spellyans mailing list