[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

A. J. Trim ajtrim at msn.com
Thu Jul 10 22:25:16 IST 2008


I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for example 
nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!

So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in Jean ... 
familiar.
Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between - [I:] 
perhaps?
How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?

Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from West
> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This sound also
> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as yeyn and
> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane, Venton
> Jean and Park an Jet.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>
>>
>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /<njawilliams at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>>
>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is therefore
>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely to
>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>
>>
>>
>> >If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by the
>> closest graph available.
>>
>>
>>
>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more Ys
>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.
>>
>>
>>
>> >They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u> for /oe/
>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>> something in between both is naive.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>
>>
>>
>> >Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested the
>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both /dZ/
>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and in
>> toponyms.
>>
>>
>>
>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out that
>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in BM. we
>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd to
>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not [z]
>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from [dZ].
>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>
>>
>>
>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a
>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>
>>
>>
>> > But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the
>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> >Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>
>> Also <reys>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner for
>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>
>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.
>>
>>
>>
>> >There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt to
>> write rys for 'given',
>>
>> Pure speculation.
>>
>>
>>
>> >but may have said res.
>>
>> Pure speculation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g. bys
>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle Cornish
>> had i: I: and e:.
>>
>>
>>
>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.  Yet the
>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold
>> distinction.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom Trethewey
>>
>>
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