[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

A. J. Trim ajtrim at msn.com
Fri Jul 11 00:00:47 IST 2008


The UCR dictionary gives Marhajow for "markets".
This indicates to me that the <s> is <s>/<j>.
"Thursday Market" is Marhas Yow, but if the <h> is hard (almost a [k]) and 
if <s> is pronounced [Z], and if <ow> is pronounced as <oo> in "loo",
the sound will be something like Marka Zhyoo [mark@ Zju:].


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "nicholas williams" <njawilliams at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:34 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth Yust.
> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a different
> form borrowed from French/Breton.
>
> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we are
> dealing here with sound substitution.
> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
> Market Jew.
>
> Nicholas
> ------------
>
>
> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
>
>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for
>> example
>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
>>
>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
>> Jean ...
>> familiar.
>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between - [I:]
>> perhaps?
>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
>>
>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andrew J. Trim
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
>>
>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from West
>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This sound
>>> also
>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as yeyn and
>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane, Venton
>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /<njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
>>>>> therefore
>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely
>>>> to
>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by
>>>>> the
>>>> closest graph available.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more
>>>> Ys
>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
>>>>> for /oe/
>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>>>> something in between both is naive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested the
>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both /dZ/
>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and
>>>> in
>>>> toponyms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out that
>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in BM. we
>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd to
>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not
>>>> [z]
>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from
>>>> [dZ].
>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a
>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the
>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>>>
>>>> Also <reys>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner
>>>>> for
>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>>>
>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt to
>>>> write rys for 'given',
>>>>
>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> but may have said res.
>>>>
>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g. bys
>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
>>>> Cornish
>>>> had i: I: and e:.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.  Yet
>>>> the
>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold
>>>> distinction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom Trethewey
>>>>
>>>>
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