[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

Harry Fraiser harryfraiser at googlemail.com
Fri Jul 11 08:01:55 IST 2008


Wouldn't it be a good idea to spell it 'zh'?

Harry

On 7/11/08, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
> The UCR dictionary gives Marhajow for "markets".
> This indicates to me that the <s> is <s>/<j>.
> "Thursday Market" is Marhas Yow, but if the <h> is hard (almost a [k]) and
> if <s> is pronounced [Z], and if <ow> is pronounced as <oo> in "loo",
> the sound will be something like Marka Zhyoo [mark@ Zju:].
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew J. Trim
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "nicholas williams" <njawilliams at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:34 PM
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
>
>> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
>> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
>> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth Yust.
>> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a different
>> form borrowed from French/Breton.
>>
>> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we are
>> dealing here with sound substitution.
>> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
>> Market Jew.
>>
>> Nicholas
>> ------------
>>
>>
>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
>>
>>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for
>>> example
>>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
>>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
>>>
>>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
>>> Jean ...
>>> familiar.
>>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between - [I:]
>>> perhaps?
>>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
>>>
>>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
>>>
>>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from West
>>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This sound
>>>> also
>>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as yeyn and
>>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane, Venton
>>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /<njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
>>>>>> therefore
>>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely
>>>>> to
>>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by
>>>>>> the
>>>>> closest graph available.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more
>>>>> Ys
>>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
>>>>>> for /oe/
>>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>>>>> something in between both is naive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested the
>>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both /dZ/
>>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and
>>>>> in
>>>>> toponyms.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out that
>>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in BM. we
>>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd to
>>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not
>>>>> [z]
>>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from
>>>>> [dZ].
>>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a
>>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the
>>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also <reys>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner
>>>>>> for
>>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>>>>
>>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt to
>>>>> write rys for 'given',
>>>>>
>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> but may have said res.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g. bys
>>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
>>>>> Cornish
>>>>> had i: I: and e:.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.  Yet
>>>>> the
>>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold
>>>>> distinction.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Trethewey
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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