[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

Craig Weatherhill weatherhill at freenet.co.uk
Fri Jul 11 10:47:15 IST 2008


Yes, that Venton Veor name is a significant one.  If it helps to bolster 
your records, recorded spellings are: Fontenwoyri 1375; Fentenveyr, 
Fentenvayr, Fentenfeyr 1441; Ventonvere 1675.

Craig

nicholas williams wrote:
> Of course they are different. There is evidence for Cornish Yesu in  
> the name of Pantersbridge (Pontyesu 1241), for
> the Cornish equivalent of Mair 'Mary, the BVM' in Venton Veor and  
> Yowan in Goluan. Such names
> are fossilised survivals. When the Cornish church was Saxonised these  
> names disappeared and were
> replaced after the conquest by Breton/French forms: Jesu(s) with  
> initial [dZ], Maria and Jowan.
> Lhuyd tells us that Jesu and Jowan had initial [dZ] (AB 67b; 228a) and  
> Maria with three syllables is clearly neither
> the same as W Mair nor borrowed from English.
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 10 Jul 2008, at 23:45, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>   
>> Are Yowan and Jowan the same?  Might they not be similar to Welsh  
>> Ieuan
>> and Sion?  Of course, I am not holding that they are different, but
>> might they be?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> nicholas williams wrote:
>>     
>>> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
>>> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
>>> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth Yust.
>>> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a different
>>> form borrowed from French/Breton.
>>>
>>> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we are
>>> dealing here with sound substitution.
>>> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
>>> Market Jew.
>>>
>>> Nicholas
>>> ------------
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for
>>>> example
>>>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
>>>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
>>>>
>>>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
>>>> Jean ...
>>>> familiar.
>>>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between -  
>>>> [I:]
>>>> perhaps?
>>>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
>>>>
>>>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from  
>>>>> West
>>>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This sound
>>>>> also
>>>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as yeyn  
>>>>> and
>>>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane,  
>>>>> Venton
>>>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /<njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
>>>>>>> therefore
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> closest graph available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more
>>>>>> Ys
>>>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
>>>>>>> for /oe/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>>>>>> something in between both is naive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both / 
>>>>>> dZ/
>>>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> toponyms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out that
>>>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in BM.  
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd to
>>>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not
>>>>>> [z]
>>>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from
>>>>>> [dZ].
>>>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a
>>>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> Also <reys>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt  
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> write rys for 'given',
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> but may have said res.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g.  
>>>>>>> bys
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
>>>>>> Cornish
>>>>>> had i: I: and e:.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.  Yet
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold
>>>>>> distinction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Trethewey
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>             
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