[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

Jon Mills j.mills at email.com
Fri Jul 11 11:00:27 IST 2008


That would give us *Moyri for 'Mary' in 1375. I guess the <o>s in "Fontenwoyri" might be misreadings of <e>. That would give us 'Fentenweyri' and *Meyri.
Jon


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:47:15 +0100
> 
> 
> Yes, that Venton Veor name is a significant one.  If it helps to bolster
> your records, recorded spellings are: Fontenwoyri 1375; Fentenveyr,
> Fentenvayr, Fentenfeyr 1441; Ventonvere 1675.
> 
> Craig
> 
> nicholas williams wrote:
> > Of course they are different. There is evidence for Cornish Yesu 
> > in  the name of Pantersbridge (Pontyesu 1241), for
> > the Cornish equivalent of Mair 'Mary, the BVM' in Venton Veor and 
> >  Yowan in Goluan. Such names
> > are fossilised survivals. When the Cornish church was Saxonised 
> > these  names disappeared and were
> > replaced after the conquest by Breton/French forms: Jesu(s) with  
> > initial [dZ], Maria and Jowan.
> > Lhuyd tells us that Jesu and Jowan had initial [dZ] (AB 67b; 
> > 228a) and  Maria with three syllables is clearly neither
> > the same as W Mair nor borrowed from English.
> >
> > Nicholas
> >
> > On 10 Jul 2008, at 23:45, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Are Yowan and Jowan the same?  Might they not be similar to Welsh  Ieuan
> >> and Sion?  Of course, I am not holding that they are different, but
> >> might they be?
> >>
> >> Craig
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> nicholas williams wrote:
> >>
> >>> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
> >>> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
> >>> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth Yust.
> >>> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a different
> >>> form borrowed from French/Breton.
> >>>
> >>> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we are
> >>> dealing here with sound substitution.
> >>> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
> >>> Market Jew.
> >>>
> >>> Nicholas
> >>> ------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for
> >>>> example
> >>>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
> >>>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
> >>>>
> >>>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
> >>>> Jean ...
> >>>> familiar.
> >>>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between -  [I:]
> >>>> perhaps?
> >>>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
> >>>>
> >>>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Andrew J. Trim
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --------------------------------------------------
> >>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
> >>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from  West
> >>>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This sound
> >>>>> also
> >>>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as yeyn  and
> >>>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane,  Venton
> >>>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Craig
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /<njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
> >>>>>>> therefore
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> closest graph available.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more
> >>>>>> Ys
> >>>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
> >>>>>>> for /oe/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
> >>>>>> something in between both is naive.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested  the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both / dZ/
> >>>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> toponyms.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out that
> >>>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in BM.  we
> >>>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd to
> >>>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not
> >>>>>> [z]
> >>>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from
> >>>>>> [dZ].
> >>>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a
> >>>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also <reys>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt  to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> write rys for 'given',
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pure speculation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> but may have said res.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pure speculation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g.  bys
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
> >>>>>> Cornish
> >>>>>> had i: I: and e:.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.  Yet
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold
> >>>>>> distinction.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom Trethewey
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>> new.html>
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> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
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>



_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent


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