[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

Harry Fraiser harryfraiser at googlemail.com
Fri Jul 11 11:19:39 IST 2008


That's interesting. Irish has one form, 'Maire', for mortal women, and
another, 'Muire' for the mother of Jesus. Might there have been a
similar arrangement in Cornish?

Harry

On 7/11/08, Craig Weatherhill <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes, that Venton Veor name is a significant one.  If it helps to bolster
> your records, recorded spellings are: Fontenwoyri 1375; Fentenveyr,
> Fentenvayr, Fentenfeyr 1441; Ventonvere 1675.
>
> Craig
>
> nicholas williams wrote:
>> Of course they are different. There is evidence for Cornish Yesu in
>> the name of Pantersbridge (Pontyesu 1241), for
>> the Cornish equivalent of Mair 'Mary, the BVM' in Venton Veor and
>> Yowan in Goluan. Such names
>> are fossilised survivals. When the Cornish church was Saxonised these
>> names disappeared and were
>> replaced after the conquest by Breton/French forms: Jesu(s) with
>> initial [dZ], Maria and Jowan.
>> Lhuyd tells us that Jesu and Jowan had initial [dZ] (AB 67b; 228a) and
>> Maria with three syllables is clearly neither
>> the same as W Mair nor borrowed from English.
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 23:45, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Are Yowan and Jowan the same?  Might they not be similar to Welsh
>>> Ieuan
>>> and Sion?  Of course, I am not holding that they are different, but
>>> might they be?
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> nicholas williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
>>>> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
>>>> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth Yust.
>>>> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a different
>>>> form borrowed from French/Breton.
>>>>
>>>> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we are
>>>> dealing here with sound substitution.
>>>> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
>>>> Market Jew.
>>>>
>>>> Nicholas
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for
>>>>> example
>>>>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
>>>>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
>>>>>
>>>>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
>>>>> Jean ...
>>>>> familiar.
>>>>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between -
>>>>> [I:]
>>>>> perhaps?
>>>>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
>>>>>
>>>>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
>>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from
>>>>>> West
>>>>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This sound
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as yeyn
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane,
>>>>>> Venton
>>>>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /<njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
>>>>>>>> therefore
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> closest graph available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more
>>>>>>> Ys
>>>>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
>>>>>>>> for /oe/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>>>>>>> something in between both is naive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both /
>>>>>>> dZ/
>>>>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> toponyms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out that
>>>>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in BM.
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd to
>>>>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not
>>>>>>> [z]
>>>>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from
>>>>>>> [dZ].
>>>>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a
>>>>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also <reys>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> write rys for 'given',
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but may have said res.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g.
>>>>>>>> bys
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
>>>>>>> Cornish
>>>>>>> had i: I: and e:.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.  Yet
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold
>>>>>>> distinction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Trethewey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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