[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

nicholas williams njawilliams at gmail.com
Fri Jul 11 11:32:57 IST 2008


The form Muire now used in Irish for the Blessed Virgin Mary was  
originally used for any Mary in the bible.
Caoineadh na dTrí Muire 'the Lament of the three Marys' is an example  
of this use. Muire < Latin Maria, just as Welsh
Mair and Cornish *Mayr < Maria.
In the Irish church one did not give a child a saint's name, but  
rather called him "servant of saint" or "devotee of saint"
whence such names as Maol Mhuire and Giolla Phádraig.
After the Norman Conquest of Ireland, the Irish began to give saints'  
names to their children, but they
did so using French forms. As a result the old name Muire became  
restricted to the BVM and Máire 'Maura'
as a baptismal names. This is exactly the same as *Mayr but Maria in  
Cornish.

Another doublet is Eoin ~ Seán parallel with Cornish *Yowan in Goluan  
and Jowan.

Nicholas
-----------
On 11 Jul 2008, at 11:19, Harry Fraiser wrote:

> That's interesting. Irish has one form, 'Maire', for mortal women, and
> another, 'Muire' for the mother of Jesus. Might there have been a
> similar arrangement in Cornish?
>
> Harry
>
> On 7/11/08, Craig Weatherhill <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Yes, that Venton Veor name is a significant one.  If it helps to  
>> bolster
>> your records, recorded spellings are: Fontenwoyri 1375; Fentenveyr,
>> Fentenvayr, Fentenfeyr 1441; Ventonvere 1675.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> nicholas williams wrote:
>>> Of course they are different. There is evidence for Cornish Yesu in
>>> the name of Pantersbridge (Pontyesu 1241), for
>>> the Cornish equivalent of Mair 'Mary, the BVM' in Venton Veor and
>>> Yowan in Goluan. Such names
>>> are fossilised survivals. When the Cornish church was Saxonised  
>>> these
>>> names disappeared and were
>>> replaced after the conquest by Breton/French forms: Jesu(s) with
>>> initial [dZ], Maria and Jowan.
>>> Lhuyd tells us that Jesu and Jowan had initial [dZ] (AB 67b; 228a)  
>>> and
>>> Maria with three syllables is clearly neither
>>> the same as W Mair nor borrowed from English.
>>>
>>> Nicholas
>>>
>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 23:45, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Are Yowan and Jowan the same?  Might they not be similar to Welsh
>>>> Ieuan
>>>> and Sion?  Of course, I am not holding that they are different, but
>>>> might they be?
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> nicholas williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
>>>>> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
>>>>> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth Yust.
>>>>> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a  
>>>>> different
>>>>> form borrowed from French/Breton.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we are
>>>>> dealing here with sound substitution.
>>>>> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
>>>>> Market Jew.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas
>>>>> ------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in, for
>>>>>> example
>>>>>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
>>>>>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
>>>>>> Jean ...
>>>>>> familiar.
>>>>>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in between -
>>>>>> [I:]
>>>>>> perhaps?
>>>>>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
>>>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical  
>>>>>> marks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from
>>>>>>> West
>>>>>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This  
>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as  
>>>>>>> yeyn
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane,
>>>>>>> Venton
>>>>>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams / 
>>>>>>>> <njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
>>>>>>>>> therefore
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is  
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell  
>>>>>>>>> it by
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> closest graph available.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect  
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> Ys
>>>>>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner  
>>>>>>>> than Y.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
>>>>>>>>> for /oe/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>>>>>>>> something in between both is naive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and  
>>>>>>>>> suggested
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that  
>>>>>>>> both /
>>>>>>>> dZ/
>>>>>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late  
>>>>>>>> Cornish and
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> toponyms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out  
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in  
>>>>>>>> BM.
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not  
>>>>>>>> absurd to
>>>>>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is  
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> [z]
>>>>>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from
>>>>>>>> [dZ].
>>>>>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have  
>>>>>>>> devised a
>>>>>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by  
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also <reys>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much  
>>>>>>>>> commoner
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this  
>>>>>>>> statement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes  
>>>>>>>>> learnt
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> write rys for 'given',
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but may have said res.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations,  
>>>>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>>>> bys
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
>>>>>>>> Cornish
>>>>>>>> had i: I: and e:.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic  
>>>>>>>> Cornish/.  Yet
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a  
>>>>>>>> threefold
>>>>>>>> distinction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Trethewey
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Not happy with your email address?
>>>>>>>> Get the one you really want <http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/
>>>>>>>> new.html>
>>>>>>>> - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo!
>>>>>>>> <http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net





More information about the Spellyans mailing list