[Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks

nicholas williams njawilliams at gmail.com
Fri Jul 11 11:33:14 IST 2008


Yes, I am.

On 11 Jul 2008, at 11:24, Harry Fraiser wrote:

> Pardon my asking - are you the Nicholas Williams mentioned in Peter
> Beresford Ellis' book on Cornish?
>
> Harry
>
> On 7/11/08, nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you for that, Craig. Fentenvayr and Fentenveyr certainly do  
>> look
>> like "Our Lady's Well".
>>
>> Nicholas
>> -----------
>> On 11 Jul 2008, at 10:47, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that Venton Veor name is a significant one.  If it helps to
>>> bolster
>>> your records, recorded spellings are: Fontenwoyri 1375; Fentenveyr,
>>> Fentenvayr, Fentenfeyr 1441; Ventonvere 1675.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> nicholas williams wrote:
>>>> Of course they are different. There is evidence for Cornish Yesu in
>>>> the name of Pantersbridge (Pontyesu 1241), for
>>>> the Cornish equivalent of Mair 'Mary, the BVM' in Venton Veor and
>>>> Yowan in Goluan. Such names
>>>> are fossilised survivals. When the Cornish church was Saxonised  
>>>> these
>>>> names disappeared and were
>>>> replaced after the conquest by Breton/French forms: Jesu(s) with
>>>> initial [dZ], Maria and Jowan.
>>>> Lhuyd tells us that Jesu and Jowan had initial [dZ] (AB 67b; 228a)
>>>> and
>>>> Maria with three syllables is clearly neither
>>>> the same as W Mair nor borrowed from English.
>>>>
>>>> Nicholas
>>>>
>>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 23:45, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Are Yowan and Jowan the same?  Might they not be similar to Welsh
>>>>> Ieuan
>>>>> and Sion?  Of course, I am not holding that they are different,  
>>>>> but
>>>>> might they be?
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> nicholas williams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <y> [j] is sometime lost initially in Yedhow (ezow in MC), yehes
>>>>>> (ehes, ehaz) and yeth (eyth).
>>>>>> It is also lost in Yust < Latin Justus; cf. Por' Ust < Porth  
>>>>>> Yust.
>>>>>> It is also lost in Yowan > Goluan 'Midsummer'. Jowan is a  
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> form borrowed from French/Breton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is very unlikely that [j] > [dZ]. It is more likely that we  
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> dealing here with sound substitution.
>>>>>> They didn't understand yet so they made it jet. Cf. Marhas Yow >
>>>>>> Market Jew.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicholas
>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 22:25, A. J. Trim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have long said that I would like to use <z> for <s>/<j> in,  
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> example
>>>>>>> nynz yu, pyzy, paruzy and kerenza.
>>>>>>> If the true sound is [Z], that works just fine!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So yeyn has <ey> and that could be the [e:] in Jane or [i:] in
>>>>>>> Jean ...
>>>>>>> familiar.
>>>>>>> Now, are these separate sounds or its the true sound in  
>>>>>>> between -
>>>>>>> [I:]
>>>>>>> perhaps?
>>>>>>> How do you say these two names in West Cornwall?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should yeth "language" be pronounced [Ze:T]?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:56 PM
>>>>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical
>>>>>>> marks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can I suggest that the s/g sound is like the S of leisure (from
>>>>>>>> West
>>>>>>>> Cornish speech), a soft zh sound rather than a hard J.  This
>>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> attached itself to certain words with the initial Y, such as  
>>>>>>>> yeyn
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> yet, explaining location and field names such as Chapel Jane,
>>>>>>>> Venton
>>>>>>>> Jean and Park an Jet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- On *Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams /
>>>>>>>>> <njawilliams at gmail.com>/*
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nicholas Williams wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is
>>>>>>>>>> therefore
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> written X is not one that carries much weight.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed.  If there is no obvious graph available, then it is
>>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell
>>>>>>>>>> it by
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> closest graph available.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> Ys
>>>>>>>>> than Zs.  If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than
>>>>>>>>> Y.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u>
>>>>>>>>>> for /oe/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean
>>>>>>>>> something in between both is naive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the contrary, it is commonsense.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and  
>>>>>>>>>> suggested
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that  
>>>>>>>>> both /
>>>>>>>>> dZ/
>>>>>>>>> and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> toponyms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But is this the most likely explanation?  Chaudhri points out
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> /ose/ is followed within thirty line in OM. by /oge, /and in  
>>>>>>>>> BM.
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> find /dewgys/ and /dewsys/ within six lines.  It is not absurd
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> [z]
>>>>>>>>> but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far  
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> [dZ].
>>>>>>>>> [Z] would fit the bill.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have  
>>>>>>>>> devised a
>>>>>>>>> combination of letters  to write it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> closest graph available."  You cannot have it both ways.  :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also <reys>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much
>>>>>>>>>> commoner
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'necessity' than for 'given'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You would be well advised to check the veracity of this
>>>>>>>>> statement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are several problems here. One is that the scribes  
>>>>>>>>>> learnt
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> write rys for 'given',
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> but may have said res.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pure speculation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations,  
>>>>>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>>>>> bys
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle
>>>>>>>>> Cornish
>>>>>>>>> had i: I: and e:.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You made that clear in your book /Towards Authentic Cornish/.
>>>>>>>>> Yet
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a  
>>>>>>>>> threefold
>>>>>>>>> distinction.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom Trethewey
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Not happy with your email address?
>>>>>>>>> Get the one you really want <http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/
>>>>>>>>> new.html>
>>>>>>>>> - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo!
>>>>>>>>> <http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net





More information about the Spellyans mailing list