[Spellyans] Introducing Penny Squire

Craig Weatherhill weatherhill at freenet.co.uk
Sat Jul 12 08:33:03 IST 2008


Depend upon what you call a minority faction.  The books (NT and BK) 
were hardly judged by their covers, but by their entire content.  The JW 
went out and bought a copy of NT which is now one of his most prized 
possessions, even though he knows little about the language.  As I 
recall, Nicholas's NT was, and is, most reasonably priced (and I did get 
BK with a fair discount).

The Kesva's NT, using 6 translators, is full of error (read the detail 
of this in "Form and Content in Revived Cornish" (2007) and only the 
late Ray Edwards emerges with credit for his excellent translation.  I 
also did not like the way that the Kesva publicised that theirs was the 
first NT to be produced (it was not, Nicholas's appeared earlier) and 
that theirs was translated from the original Greek.  It wasn't.  The 
Kesva's BK has all the appearance of being a rush job designed only to 
beat Nicholas Williams and Graham Thomas to publication.

Mary, whatever talents I possess has always been available to all 
sides.  Three of them (UC, UCR and Late Cornish) have frequently 
approached me and I have been glad to help.  The fourth faction would 
not, presumably driven by personal dislike (although, to be fair, Pol 
Hodge and I have frequently conversed about place-names).

Why do you detect a whiff of smugness?  What do you believe I have to be 
smug about?  Remember that I was in the team (which came from all 
factions) which produced KS.  But we did not get KS accepted as the 
SWF.  I rather think, Mary, that I detect a whiff of a factionalism that 
is now obsolete.  This list exists for the very reason you suggest - to 
make as many talents as possible available to all for the overall good 
of the language.  Opinions expressed here are honest ones and mine 
certainly were.

Craig


Mary Williams wrote:
> I'm surprised you consider a passing Witness to be a suitable judge of 
> Bible translations. I fear he would have been reduced to judging the 
> book by its cover. The UCR Bible and Dr. Williams' Bywnans Ke seem 
> both to have been designed (and priced) for the collectors market. The 
> Kesva prefer to publish books that Cornish people can afford to buy 
> and read. I really do detect a whiff of smugness here. If you have the 
> good of the language at heart why don't you both make your excellent 
> talents available to all sides, rather than supporting a minority faction?
>
> Mary (a bit puzzled)
>
> --- On *Fri, 11/7/08, Craig Weatherhill /<weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>/* 
> wrote:
>
>     From: Craig Weatherhill <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>     Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Introducing Penny Squire
>     To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>     Date: Friday, 11 July, 2008, 11:27 AM
>
>     Unfortunately, Nicholas, I've seen it.  Just like their version of 
>     Bewnans Ke, it is the exact opposite of your Testament Noweth which 
>     merited the description that one commentator gave to it : "the most 
>     beautiful book ever written in Cornish".  I showed your TN to my 
>     all-too-frequent JW visitors (when will they accept that I will never, 
>     ever, subscribe to any organised religion?), and they went into raptures 
>     about it.
>
>     Craig
>
>
>     nicholas williams wrote:
>     > He
>      did not understand that KK was controversial.
>     > Unlike Rowan Williams, he did not allow his words to be translated  
>     > into KK.
>     > See the Kesva's Testament Nowydh (if you must—it is dreadful in
>     every  
>     > possible way).
>     >
>     > Nicholas
>     > -----------
>     > On 11 Jul 2008, at 12:05, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>     >
>     >   
>     >> On the downside, he also contributed to Ken George's dictionary
>     ("An
>     >> Gerlyver Kres"): Page 2 - "The publication of this book has
>     been
>     >> supported by a donation from H.R.H. the Duke of Cornwall".
>     >>
>     >> Craig
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> nicholas williams wrote:
>     >>     
>     >>> You know, Ken, that his great-great-grandfather Edward VII
>     subsidised
>     >>> Dwelly's Gaelic dictionary.
>     >>>
>     >>> Nicholas
>     >>>
>     >>> On 11 Jul 2008, at 10:42, Ken MacKinnon
>      wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>       
>     >>>> He turned up at the Dingwall Mod in 1991 and got up in the
>     High
>     >>>> Street here
>     >>>> and gave a pretty good speech all in Gaelic.  So although I am
>     no
>     >>>> royalist
>     >>>> myself, full marks for 'going the extra mile', taking
>     his Duke of
>     >>>> Rothesay
>     >>>> and Lord of the Isles titles seriously
>     >>>>
>     >>>> - an Ken ken
>     >>>>
>     >>>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon,
>     >>>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>     >>>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>     >>>> Ross-shire  IV7 8HX
>     >>>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>     >>>> E-mail: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>     >>>> From: "Harry
>      Fraiser"
>     <harryfraiser at googlemail.com>
>     >>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"
>     <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>     >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:36 PM
>     >>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Introducing Penny Squire
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>
>     >>>>         
>     >>>>> Yes, that does seem rather unfair. After all, he has
>     insisted that
>     >>>>> Cornish be used on the Duchy of Cornwall website!
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> Harry
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> On 7/10/08, nicholas williams
>     <njawilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>           
>     >>>>>> And by me. I live in Ireland, not Cornwall, and living
>     as expat
>     >>>>>> here I
>     >>>>>> have
>     >>>>>> become quite a
>      royalist. I have a high opinion of the
>     Prince of
>     >>>>>> Wales/
>     >>>>>> Duke of Cornwall and
>     >>>>>> find insults to the royal family deeply offensive.
>     >>>>>>
>     >>>>>> Nicholas Williams
>     >>>>>>
>     >>>>>> On 10 Jul 2008, at 17:16, Owen Cook wrote:
>     >>>>>>
>     >>>>>>
>     >>>>>>             
>     >>>>>>> Like Jon, I'm interested in hearing your
>     specific complaints
>     >>>>>>> about the
>     >>>>>>> SWF. I suspect we all have quibbles or
>     reservations about the
>     >>>>>>> process
>     >>>>>>> itself, but do you have any particulars concerning
>     the finished
>     >>>>>>> project which you feel need to be
>      corrected?
>     >>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>> By the bye, ad hominems and personal insults like
>     "mutt" and "big
>     >>>>>>> ears" are looked askance at by the list
>     administrator.
>     >>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>> Oll an gwelha,
>     >>>>>>> ~~Owen
>     >>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>> On 10/07/2008, Penny Squire
>     <pennysquire at ymail.com> rug scrifa:
>     >>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>               
>     >>>>>>>> Please bear in mind that for several years I
>     have been to and  
>     >>>>>>>> fro
>     >>>>>>>> between
>     >>>>>>>> Cornwall and other places rather a lot, so
>     have been less in  
>     >>>>>>>> touch
>     >>>>>>>> than
>      I
>     >>>>>>>> would have preferred.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> Having said that, I have, when possible, been
>     ploughing through
>     >>>>>>>> any
>     >>>>>>>> and
>     >>>>>>>> every discussion I could access on what was
>     going on (in
>     >>>>>>>> addition to
>     >>>>>>>> actually learning the language!) including
>     Cornwall 24, as  
>     >>>>>>>> well as
>     >>>>>>>> looking
>     >>>>>>>> at George, Gendall, Williams and Chaudhri.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> From what I can gather the Partnership may
>     have been following a
>     >>>>>>>> political
>     >>>>>>>> agenda of " let's fudge something, it
>     means
>      government money" -
>     >>>>>>>> great for
>     >>>>>>>> the boys and girls employed by Cornwall
>     Council, not so great
>     >>>>>>>> for the
>     >>>>>>>> language.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> I'm not, however, discounting actual
>     malice ("let's blow the
>     >>>>>>>> money on
>     >>>>>>>> conferences, pander to non-speakers, sideline
>     Cornish speakers  
>     >>>>>>>> and
>     >>>>>>>> homegrown
>     >>>>>>>> experts and fly in outside experts, preferably
>     ones that are not
>     >>>>>>>> too expert,
>     >>>>>>>> produce a shambles and really stuff the
>     language") - Eric Brook
>     >>>>>>>> is,
>     >>>>>>>>
>      after
>     >>>>>>>> all, a colleague of Doris Ansari (anyone who
>     doesn't know  
>     >>>>>>>> about La
>     >>>>>>>> Ansari
>     >>>>>>>> and her anti-Cornish agenda shouldn't be
>     on this list!) and Bert
>     >>>>>>>> Biscoe lost
>     >>>>>>>> the plot on the Assembly campaign long ago and
>     has obviously
>     >>>>>>>> failed
>     >>>>>>>> to come
>     >>>>>>>> to any sort of understanding about the
>     language.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> Having read John Angarrack's latest I
>     wouldn't be surprised if  
>     >>>>>>>> Big
>     >>>>>>>> Ears
>     >>>>>>>> Windsor had a hand in it,
>      either.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> I have read the so-called report the
>     Commission produced and  
>     >>>>>>>> have
>     >>>>>>>> seen more
>     >>>>>>>> valuable documents hanging on the nail in
>     Granny's outside  
>     >>>>>>>> privy..
>     >>>>>>>> I'm not a
>     >>>>>>>> linguist, but one hardly needs to be to see
>     that they were, as  
>     >>>>>>>> my
>     >>>>>>>> uncle Tony
>     >>>>>>>> the builder would say, 'shitty
>     workers'. It's a pity linguists
>     >>>>>>>> aren't
>     >>>>>>>> covered by the Trade Descriptions Act.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> Essentially I have no confidence whatsoever in
>     the process
>      which
>     >>>>>>>> led to the
>     >>>>>>>> SWF. It looks as if it were modelled on
>     government public
>     >>>>>>>> consultation
>     >>>>>>>> exercises which are a total sham - the public
>     has its say  
>     >>>>>>>> which is
>     >>>>>>>> totally
>     >>>>>>>> ignored and some back office hack produces a
>     hideous plan which
>     >>>>>>>> please
>     >>>>>>>> nobody, doesn't work and costs the
>     taxpayer a bomb to build  
>     >>>>>>>> after
>     >>>>>>>> going way
>     >>>>>>>> over budget.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> As for the SWF itself - I imaging any linguist
>     with a  
>     >>>>>>>> knowledge
>      of
>     >>>>>>>> Brythonic
>     >>>>>>>> languages would tear it apart.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> I am not an expert on linguistics - but trying
>     to design  an
>     >>>>>>>> orthography to
>     >>>>>>>> reflect how second language learners and
>     speakers brought up on
>     >>>>>>>> divergent
>     >>>>>>>> phonologies mispronounce Cornish has to be the
>     single most crazy
>     >>>>>>>> linguistic
>     >>>>>>>> idea since whoever it was built the tower of
>     Babel. What mutt
>     >>>>>>>> dreamt that
>     >>>>>>>> one up?
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> Jon, in a previous post you said something to
>     the effect that
>      it
>     >>>>>>>> was
>     >>>>>>>> pointless discussing orthography design before
>     agreeing on
>     >>>>>>>> pronunciation. Go
>     >>>>>>>> to the top of the class! I have laboured
>     through the postings on
>     >>>>>>>> this list -
>     >>>>>>>> I think you need to reiterate it - in
>     capitals!
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> As I said in my introduction, I have been
>     learning Cornish using
>     >>>>>>>> Kernewek
>     >>>>>>>> Kemmyn. I'd be interested to know how
>     close the Spellyans group
>     >>>>>>>> is to
>     >>>>>>>> reaching conclusions on pronunciation, and if,
>     where and why it
>     >>>>>>>> differs from
>     >>>>>>>>
>      KK.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> I shall be away for ten days or thereabout and
>     will catch up  
>     >>>>>>>> on my
>     >>>>>>>> return.
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>> Penny
>     >>>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>>                 
>     >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>     >>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>     >>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>     >>>>>>>
>     http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>     >>>>>>>
>     >>>>>>>               
>     >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>     >>>>>>
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>     >>>>>>
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>     >>>>>>
>     >>>>>>
>     >>>>>>             
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