[Spellyans] au

Ken MacKinnon kenmackinnon at enterprise.net
Thu Jul 24 19:56:25 IST 2008


Chons da ha sowena,  Craig - Ken


(Prof) Ken MacKinnon,
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV7 8HX
Tel: 01349 - 863460
E-mail: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] au


> Then I should be thankful for small mercies, Ken!  I must admit that I
> did want the name Menhyr (and have published under such a pseudonym)
> because it represented an archaeological monument - and I was (and still
> am) heavily involved in archaeology - Craig "rock" was close enough to
> Men "stone" and, as for the Hyr part, well, I am 6' 3" tall.
>
> Oliver has been at considerable pains to point out that Gover is replete
> with error and, apparently, he is currently checking evcery single
> source cited by Gover in order to sort it all out.  A mammoth task that
> I would not even contemplate tackling - not if I want to go on earning
> my meagre living.  He is uniquely placed to take this on.
>
> For example, Pensivillowe, cited by Gover, might well look like an early
> form of Pensilva (which is a name of relatively modern coinage) when, in
> fact, it refers to amlst site in Newlyn East parish.  Oliver brought me
> up short for my citing forms such as Brevannek for St Agnes when it
> seems that all the similar forms actually refer to a site in St Hilary.
> Hence my reversion to the Bryanek forms for St Agnes.
>
> I will have to place a cautionary note about reliance upon Gover in my
> place-name document, which has to be complete by the end of July.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>> Most interested in your revison of place-names list, Craig.   I would be
>> very keen to receive this when it is ready.
>>
>> I was presented with a full set of the Kesva placenames booklets when I
>> did
>> my 2000 study.   I could immediately see that many of them were
>> unsatisfactory on all sorts of grounds - and that this represented
>> essentially an amateur approach.   I have always felt that the failure to
>> publish Gover's placenames book was a considerable failing on the part of
>> the EPNS.  When Oliver retired I said I hoped he would get this published
>> as
>> priority.  He siad he wanted to revise it as further scholarship had
>> overtaken some of Gover's work.  However we still await this opus.  I can
>> imagine that Oliver is beavering away - but you can beaver away for ever
>> on
>> that sort of thing and submerge without trace beneath the detail,   never
>> to
>> emerge with the finished product.  I very much hope that your revised
>> list
>> will see early publication.  Otherwise it's Gresham's Law: bad money
>> drives
>> out good.
>>
>> I would hope very much as a priority that a commission for Cornish
>> placenames might be constituted as an ealy priority of developments now
>> the
>> SWF has been announced.    If it is, I very much trust that it will
>> comprise
>> actual professional experts and persons with actual track record in the
>> field.
>>
>> I feel that your application for Menhyr as a bardic name was rightly
>> turned
>> down - but for the wrong reason.   A menhyr is an artefact.   Craig
>> refers
>> to a natural and conspicuous stone feature.   It is Creag in Gaelic and
>> is
>> feminine in gender - and so is its derivation carraig.   As is also its
>> Cornish cognate carrek.  There is of course clegar - which Nicholas gives
>> as
>> feminine but Nance as masculine.   You may have had a lucky escape.
>>
>> gorhemmynadow - Ken
>>
>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon,
>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>> Ross-shire  IV7 8HX
>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>> E-mail: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] au
>>
>>
>>
>>> In their booklet on place-name recommendations, the Kesva tended to
>>> replace <au> with <ow>, so we had "Mownan", "Mowgan", "Lanvowsedh" for
>>> what was traditionally Maunan, Maugan and Lanvausa (St Mawes).  Then
>>> they went and replaced <ew> with <ow> in the name Trenewan which,
>>> historically, has been Trenewien 1207; Trenywyan 1310; Trenywyen 1422;
>>> Trenewyen 1424; Trenewen c. 1523 (presumably tre + personal name).  One
>>> wonders why they did not recommend Trenywyen in accordance with their
>>> own system, and which would have found an historical match from 1422.
>>>
>>> The SWF system would now have <o> for KK <ow>, so we would be looking at
>>> Monan, Mogan and Lanvosa/Lanvosedh (admittedly, for Mawgan-in-Meneage,
>>> we do have the spelling Pluvogan), which is why I advocate the
>>> restoration of <au>, and am doing so in my place-name recommendation
>>> document.
>>>
>>> Speaking of which, do those to whom I sent the provisional list of 3,400
>>> toponyms, have any comments?  If so, could I have them ASAP, if not
>>> sooner?  Grassa dhewgh.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Everson wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 07:45 +0100 2008-07-24, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe because Austria is an anglicisation of Oesterreich from
>>>>> Germnan Ost, ostern.  = east
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The English translation is "Eastric" or possibly "Eastreach". :-)
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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