[Spellyans] redistribution of <i> and <y>

Jon Mills j.mills at email.com
Fri Jul 25 10:00:29 IST 2008


Robert Williams (1865: 331) in his Lexicon Cornu-Britannicum gives the plural as 'tavasow' and cites "Ha gurenz an gy bôs râg tavasow, ha râg termeniow" CW 190. This citation, however does not in fact seem to be from Jordan's Creation. Williams presumably found it somewhere, and the Cornish is obviously late. Can anyone identify this citation, please?
Jon


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] redistribution of <i> and <y>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:17:44 +0100
> 
> 
> Jon, would this mean that, with the attested plural "tavosow", the
> reduced vowel in the singular is "a" or "o" (unattested), therefore we
> should write either "tavas" (attested) or "tavos" (unattested)?
> 
> Always bearing in kind that we have two place-names with the singular
> (Tavis Vor and Hantertavis), currently with -i-.  We have no earlty
> forms for Tavis Vor, but, for Hantertavis, we have: Hantertavas 1522,
> Hanterdeves, Henterdeves 1535; Hanter Davys 1585.  The three later forms
> seem to have been confused with deves "sheep (pl.)" or with the surname
> Davis, but the 1522 form looks to be pure.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Mills wrote:
> > I agree that Cornish has three reduced vowels: schwa, i-schwa and 
> > u-schwa. This is an areal feature that Cornish shares with 
> > English. These are allophones of various other vowels. They are 
> > not allophones of the same vowel. When an affix is added to a 
> > word, the stress shifts to the new penultimate syllable and the 
> > syllable containing the previously unstressed schwa becomes 
> > stressed. This allows us to identify the phoneme of which the 
> > schwa in question is an allophone.
> >
> > In order to simplify, in the following examples, I have written 
> > all reduced vowels as [@].
> > [lag at s] > Ordinalia: 'lagasow'; BM: 'lagasek'; Jordan: 
> > 'lagasowe'; Kerew: 'lagagow'. Schwa is an allophone of /a/. We 
> > should write 'lagas'.
> > [ben at n] > PA: 'benenas'; Ordinalia: 'benenes', 'venenes', 
> > 'vynynes'; BM: 'benenes'. Schwa is an allophone of /e/. We should 
> > write 'benen'.
> > [gorhem at n] > PA: 'woromynnys'; BM: 'gorhemynnes'. Schwa is an 
> > allophone of /I/. We should write 'gorhemmyn'.
> > [gal at s] > Ordinalia: 'gallogek', 'gallosek', 'galosek' ; BM: 
> > 'galosek', 'gallosek'. Schwa is an allophone of /o/. We should 
> > write 'gallos'.
> > [prof at s] > PA: 'brofusy'; Ordinalia: 'profugy'. Schwa is an 
> > allophone of /u/. We should write 'profus'.
> > Thus we see that the reduced vowels are allophones of /a/, /e/, 
> > /I/, /o/ and /u/.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     From: "nicholas williams"
> >     To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"
> >     Subject: Re: [Spellyans] redistribution of /and
> >     Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:12:25 +0100
> >
> >     I have discussed the question of schwa to some degree in /Cornish
> >     Today/. /
> >     /It seems that in MC there were three unstressed vowels: schwa,
> >     i-coloured schwa/
> >     /and u-coloured schwa (in gallus and arluth, for example). /
> >     /In LC all three had a tendency to fall together. One finds
> >     Cornowok in 1572/
> >     /and Frenkock in NBoson. /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /Flehes  x 14, flehys x 42, and flehas x 11 are all attested in
> >     Middle Cornish, which/
> >     /seems to me to indicate that schwa and i-schwa are allophones,
> >     perhaps conditioned/
> >     /by the following consonant or by vocalic harmony. /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /The word for 'one' is onen x 12, onan x 52, onon x 9 and onyn x
> >     90 in Middle Cornish./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /In Late Cornish the verbal adjective in -ys is not infrequently
> >     spelt with <as>, <az>:/
> >     /e.g. /En Termen ez passiez thera /*/Trigaz/*/ en St. Levan/ JCH § 1./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /Moreover in Middle Cornish itself /*benegas*/ 'blessed' and
> >     /*malegas*/ 'accursed' are common (x 60 and 10 respectively)./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /In Late Cornish forms like crenjah and venjah seem to suggest
> >     that schwa in auslaut had/
> >     /a low allophone close to [a]./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /We write arlùth with <ù> in KS but in Late Cornish it appears as
> >     <arleth> 54 times! And as <arlith> 10 times./
> >     /Nicholas Boson writes <arlyth> once./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /The word profus 'prophet' is exclusively Middle Cornish, since it
> >     is replaced by profet in Tregear and LC. /
> >     /The attested spellings are: <profus> 13, <profes> 1, <profys> 1,
> >     <profos> 3./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /<eglos> occurs 22 times in MC and LC, <egglos> 197 times (mostly
> >     in Tregear who had a special interest in the church)./
> >     /<egles> occurs twice in Late Cornish and <eglez> three times.
> >     <egglys> occurs once in Sacrament an Alter./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /The word cafus, cafos is written <cafes> twice in Origo Mundi./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /The collapse of unstressed vowels into schwa is by the way an
> >     indication that the prosodic shift has occurred by the time/
> >     /of the earliest MC texts i(late fourteenth and early fifteenth
> >     centuries). The specification of the SWF allows for/
> >     /a pre-shift phonology with half-length and pure unstressed
> >     vowels. This again is an attempt to salvage the underlying
> >     phonology of KK./
> >     /It is inauthentic as well as being irrelevant, since nobody uses it./
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     Any attempt, however, to distinguish unstressed -en, -es from -yn,
> >     -ys is, I think, doomed to failure.
> >     We have schwa, i-schwa and u-schwa (if I may be allowed to use the
> >     terms) and that is all.
> >     And all three are by the Late Cornish period (if not before)
> >     allophones of the same phoneme.
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /Nicholas/
> >     /----------/
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /
> >     /On 23 Jul 2008, at 14:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:/
> >     /
> >     /
> >>     /I would support Nicholas's view here.  The place name
> >>     Langostentyn is
> >>     Langustentyn, Langustenstyn and Legostentyn in the C14.  A final -in
> >>     creeps in in 1447, followed by -en (1501) and -on (1574 twice)
> >>     and -n
> >>     again in 1574.  The saint's name is S. Constantinus (pure Latin) in
> >>     1086, 1284, 1287, 1291; then Costentyne 1468, Costentyn 1441.
> >>      Only in
> >>     the C16 does -in appear (note the lack of "saint" in these examples).
> >>
> >>     For Constantine Bay, we have only two Cornish examples:
> >>     Egloscontantyne
> >>     c1525, and Constenton 1568.
> >>
> >>     Please note, too, that there is a place-name element <kegyn>,
> >>     "ridge"
> >>     (Pengegon), cognate with W. cegin.  To avoid confusion, I would
> >>     recommend that "kitchen" is represented by <kegen>.
> >>
> >>     On the subject of <au> I find that I have to revise my advice to
> >>     Jon.      Nance gives chons, chonsya where I would expect to 
> >> find chauns,
> >>     chaunsya
> >>     (chaunssya?).  It looks as though most of the <au> words are loan
> >>     words,
> >>     although they extend to Celtic personal (saint's) names such as
> >>     Maunan,
> >>     Maugan and Maudet.
> >>
> >>     Craig
> >>
> >>
> >>     nicholas williams wrote:
> >>     /
> >>>     /In unstressed syllables there is no difference in pronunciation
> >>>     /
> >>>     /between, say, -in in kegyn and -yn in brentyn. Even KK (which
> >>>     spells
> >>>     /
> >>>     /"etymologically") admits that unstressed i and y are not to be
> >>>     /
> >>>     /distinguished. Moreover the texts always spell MC <brentyn>,
> >>>     /
> >>>     /<bryntyn>. There are no exx of *<brentin>. The name for
> >>>     "Constantine"
> >>>     /
> >>>     /is common in BM, where it is spelt <Costentyn> at least 20
> >>>     times. It
> >>>     /
> >>>     /never has final <-in>. The only time the name has <in> is in
> >>>     the Latin
> >>>     /
> >>>     /form <Constantinus> in stage directions.  To attempt to
> >>>     distinguish
> >>>     /
> >>>     /kegyn from *brentin, *Costentin in spelling is not wise. It
> >>>     will make
> >>>     /
> >>>     /learning the orthography much harder and with no phonetic gain. It
> >>>     /
> >>>     /will merely look like an attempt to salvage a feature of KK,
> >>>     which was
> >>>     /
> >>>     /misguided in the first place. The SWF should write kegyn,
> >>>     Costentyn,
> >>>     /
> >>>     /brentyn, melyn, gyllyn, etc.
> >>>     /
> >>>     /Notice incidentally, that following KK the SWF at the moment
> >>>     writes
> >>>     /
> >>>     /gyllyn, gyllys, gyllyns but gylli!
> >>>     /
> >>>     /
> >>>     /
> >>>     /Nicholas
> >>>     /
> >>>     /-----------
> >>>     /
> >>>     /On 23 Jul 2008, at 08:40, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> >>>     /
> >>>     /
> >>>     /
> >>>>     /*I would like to hear everyone’s opinions on the following
> >>>>     idea for
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /redistributing <y> and <i> in the SWF. I would write <i> where
> >>>>     bother
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /Late and Middle Cornish have /i/ and /i:/, and write <y> ~ <e>
> >>>>     (in
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /dictionaries <ÿ> ~ <ë>) where Middle Cornish has /I/ and /I:/,
> >>>>     but
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /Late Cornish has /e/ and /e:/.*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /* *
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*Examples:*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*SWF <brentin>; RMC /”brentin/, RLC /”brentin/;*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*SWF <kegyn>; RMC /”kegin/, RLC /”keg at n/;*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*SWF <tir>; RMC /ti:r/, RLC /ti:r/;*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*SWF <bys> ~ <bes>; RMC */bI:z/ = [bi:z] ~ [bIz] ~ [beIz]
> >>>>     etc., RLC
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     //be:z/;*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /* *
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*Dan*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /* *
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /* *
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /*-----Original Message-----
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /From: Michael Everson
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:31 PM*
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /At 21:46 +0100 2008-07-20, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
> >>>>     /
> >>>>>     /Good question - if <y> is a short i and <i> a long one, then
> >>>>>     this makes
> >>>>>     /
> >>>>>     /no sense at all.
> >>>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /“That is the SWF (and KS) rule for monosyllables. In KS we are
> >>>>     making
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /an attempt to rationalize (and make teachable) the
> >>>>     distribution of
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /<i> and <y>.
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /Nicholas and I tried many times to have this distribution
> >>>>     dealt with
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /during the AHG meetings when we were asked our advice. Our
> >>>>     concerns
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /were not addressed. Not even acknowledged.
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /--
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com”
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /_______________________________________________
> >>>>     /
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> >>>>     /
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> >>>>     /
> >>>>     /_______________________________________________
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> >>>>     /http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> >>>>     /
> >>>     /
> >>>     /
> >>>     
> >>> /------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>     /
> >>
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> >
> > /
> >
> > /
> >
> > /_____________________________________
> > Dr. Jon Mills,
> > School of European Culture and Languages,
> > University of Kent
> > /
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_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent


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