[Spellyans] redistribution of <i> and <y>

Craig Weatherhill weatherhill at freenet.co.uk
Fri Jul 25 11:30:46 IST 2008


Strangely enough, Nicholas, I've just seen a first edition of this very 
book, which was recently bought by Jan Beare (personal friend and Agan 
Tavas member) for £125.  He proudly brought it over for me to see, and I 
was fascinated by it.  It not only contains Keigwin's Eng. translation 
of CW, but, as you point out, a considerable amount of further texts, 
some of which I'd never seen before.

Craig

nicholas williams wrote:
> It is in the appendix of Davies Gilbert's edition of CW, where Gilbert  
> adds some other Cornish texts. The reference is to the page number in  
> the book, not the line number of the play.
>
> Nicholas
> -----------
> On 25 Jul 2008, at 10:00, Jon Mills wrote:
>
>   
>> Robert Williams (1865: 331) in his Lexicon Cornu-Britannicum gives  
>> the plural as 'tavasow' and cites "Ha gurenz an gy bôs râg tavasow,  
>> ha râg termeniow" CW 190. This citation, however does not in fact  
>> seem to be from Jordan's Creation. Williams presumably found it  
>> somewhere, and the Cornish is obviously late. Can anyone identify  
>> this citation, please?
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>     
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <weatherhill at freenet.co.uk>
>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] redistribution of <i> and <y>
>>> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:17:44 +0100
>>>
>>>
>>> Jon, would this mean that, with the attested plural "tavosow", the
>>> reduced vowel in the singular is "a" or "o" (unattested), therefore  
>>> we
>>> should write either "tavas" (attested) or "tavos" (unattested)?
>>>
>>> Always bearing in kind that we have two place-names with the singular
>>> (Tavis Vor and Hantertavis), currently with -i-.  We have no earlty
>>> forms for Tavis Vor, but, for Hantertavis, we have: Hantertavas 1522,
>>> Hanterdeves, Henterdeves 1535; Hanter Davys 1585.  The three later  
>>> forms
>>> seem to have been confused with deves "sheep (pl.)" or with the  
>>> surname
>>> Davis, but the 1522 form looks to be pure.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jon Mills wrote:
>>>       
>>>> I agree that Cornish has three reduced vowels: schwa, i-schwa and
>>>> u-schwa. This is an areal feature that Cornish shares with
>>>> English. These are allophones of various other vowels. They are
>>>> not allophones of the same vowel. When an affix is added to a
>>>> word, the stress shifts to the new penultimate syllable and the
>>>> syllable containing the previously unstressed schwa becomes
>>>> stressed. This allows us to identify the phoneme of which the
>>>> schwa in question is an allophone.
>>>>
>>>> In order to simplify, in the following examples, I have written
>>>> all reduced vowels as [@].
>>>> [lag at s] > Ordinalia: 'lagasow'; BM: 'lagasek'; Jordan:
>>>> 'lagasowe'; Kerew: 'lagagow'. Schwa is an allophone of /a/. We
>>>> should write 'lagas'.
>>>> [ben at n] > PA: 'benenas'; Ordinalia: 'benenes', 'venenes',
>>>> 'vynynes'; BM: 'benenes'. Schwa is an allophone of /e/. We should
>>>> write 'benen'.
>>>> [gorhem at n] > PA: 'woromynnys'; BM: 'gorhemynnes'. Schwa is an
>>>> allophone of /I/. We should write 'gorhemmyn'.
>>>> [gal at s] > Ordinalia: 'gallogek', 'gallosek', 'galosek' ; BM:
>>>> 'galosek', 'gallosek'. Schwa is an allophone of /o/. We should
>>>> write 'gallos'.
>>>> [prof at s] > PA: 'brofusy'; Ordinalia: 'profugy'. Schwa is an
>>>> allophone of /u/. We should write 'profus'.
>>>> Thus we see that the reduced vowels are allophones of /a/, /e/,
>>>> /I/, /o/ and /u/.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>    From: "nicholas williams"
>>>>    To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"
>>>>    Subject: Re: [Spellyans] redistribution of /and
>>>>    Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:12:25 +0100
>>>>
>>>>    I have discussed the question of schwa to some degree in /Cornish
>>>>    Today/. /
>>>>    /It seems that in MC there were three unstressed vowels: schwa,
>>>>    i-coloured schwa/
>>>>    /and u-coloured schwa (in gallus and arluth, for example). /
>>>>    /In LC all three had a tendency to fall together. One finds
>>>>    Cornowok in 1572/
>>>>    /and Frenkock in NBoson. /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /Flehes  x 14, flehys x 42, and flehas x 11 are all attested in
>>>>    Middle Cornish, which/
>>>>    /seems to me to indicate that schwa and i-schwa are allophones,
>>>>    perhaps conditioned/
>>>>    /by the following consonant or by vocalic harmony. /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /The word for 'one' is onen x 12, onan x 52, onon x 9 and onyn x
>>>>    90 in Middle Cornish./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /In Late Cornish the verbal adjective in -ys is not infrequently
>>>>    spelt with <as>, <az>:/
>>>>    /e.g. /En Termen ez passiez thera /*/Trigaz/*/ en St. Levan/  
>>>> JCH § 1./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /Moreover in Middle Cornish itself /*benegas*/ 'blessed' and
>>>>    /*malegas*/ 'accursed' are common (x 60 and 10 respectively)./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /In Late Cornish forms like crenjah and venjah seem to suggest
>>>>    that schwa in auslaut had/
>>>>    /a low allophone close to [a]./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /We write arlùth with <ù> in KS but in Late Cornish it appears as
>>>>    <arleth> 54 times! And as <arlith> 10 times./
>>>>    /Nicholas Boson writes <arlyth> once./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /The word profus 'prophet' is exclusively Middle Cornish, since  
>>>> it
>>>>    is replaced by profet in Tregear and LC. /
>>>>    /The attested spellings are: <profus> 13, <profes> 1, <profys> 1,
>>>>    <profos> 3./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /<eglos> occurs 22 times in MC and LC, <egglos> 197 times (mostly
>>>>    in Tregear who had a special interest in the church)./
>>>>    /<egles> occurs twice in Late Cornish and <eglez> three times.
>>>>    <egglys> occurs once in Sacrament an Alter./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /The word cafus, cafos is written <cafes> twice in Origo Mundi./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /The collapse of unstressed vowels into schwa is by the way an
>>>>    indication that the prosodic shift has occurred by the time/
>>>>    /of the earliest MC texts i(late fourteenth and early fifteenth
>>>>    centuries). The specification of the SWF allows for/
>>>>    /a pre-shift phonology with half-length and pure unstressed
>>>>    vowels. This again is an attempt to salvage the underlying
>>>>    phonology of KK./
>>>>    /It is inauthentic as well as being irrelevant, since nobody  
>>>> uses it./
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    Any attempt, however, to distinguish unstressed -en, -es from - 
>>>> yn,
>>>>    -ys is, I think, doomed to failure.
>>>>    We have schwa, i-schwa and u-schwa (if I may be allowed to use  
>>>> the
>>>>    terms) and that is all.
>>>>    And all three are by the Late Cornish period (if not before)
>>>>    allophones of the same phoneme.
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /Nicholas/
>>>>    /----------/
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /On 23 Jul 2008, at 14:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:/
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>         
>>>>>    /I would support Nicholas's view here.  The place name
>>>>>    Langostentyn is
>>>>>    Langustentyn, Langustenstyn and Legostentyn in the C14.  A  
>>>>> final -in
>>>>>    creeps in in 1447, followed by -en (1501) and -on (1574 twice)
>>>>>    and -n
>>>>>    again in 1574.  The saint's name is S. Constantinus (pure  
>>>>> Latin) in
>>>>>    1086, 1284, 1287, 1291; then Costentyne 1468, Costentyn 1441.
>>>>>     Only in
>>>>>    the C16 does -in appear (note the lack of "saint" in these  
>>>>> examples).
>>>>>
>>>>>    For Constantine Bay, we have only two Cornish examples:
>>>>>    Egloscontantyne
>>>>>    c1525, and Constenton 1568.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Please note, too, that there is a place-name element <kegyn>,
>>>>>    "ridge"
>>>>>    (Pengegon), cognate with W. cegin.  To avoid confusion, I would
>>>>>    recommend that "kitchen" is represented by <kegen>.
>>>>>
>>>>>    On the subject of <au> I find that I have to revise my advice to
>>>>>    Jon.      Nance gives chons, chonsya where I would expect to
>>>>> find chauns,
>>>>>    chaunsya
>>>>>    (chaunssya?).  It looks as though most of the <au> words are  
>>>>> loan
>>>>>    words,
>>>>>    although they extend to Celtic personal (saint's) names such as
>>>>>    Maunan,
>>>>>    Maugan and Maudet.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    nicholas williams wrote:
>>>>>    /
>>>>>           
>>>>>>    /In unstressed syllables there is no difference in  
>>>>>> pronunciation
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /between, say, -in in kegyn and -yn in brentyn. Even KK (which
>>>>>>    spells
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /"etymologically") admits that unstressed i and y are not to be
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /distinguished. Moreover the texts always spell MC <brentyn>,
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /<bryntyn>. There are no exx of *<brentin>. The name for
>>>>>>    "Constantine"
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /is common in BM, where it is spelt <Costentyn> at least 20
>>>>>>    times. It
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /never has final <-in>. The only time the name has <in> is in
>>>>>>    the Latin
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /form <Constantinus> in stage directions.  To attempt to
>>>>>>    distinguish
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /kegyn from *brentin, *Costentin in spelling is not wise. It
>>>>>>    will make
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /learning the orthography much harder and with no phonetic  
>>>>>> gain. It
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /will merely look like an attempt to salvage a feature of KK,
>>>>>>    which was
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /misguided in the first place. The SWF should write kegyn,
>>>>>>    Costentyn,
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /brentyn, melyn, gyllyn, etc.
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /Notice incidentally, that following KK the SWF at the moment
>>>>>>    writes
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /gyllyn, gyllys, gyllyns but gylli!
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /Nicholas
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /-----------
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /On 23 Jul 2008, at 08:40, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>    /*I would like to hear everyone’s opinions on the following
>>>>>>>    idea for
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /redistributing <y> and <i> in the SWF. I would write <i>  
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>    bother
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Late and Middle Cornish have /i/ and /i:/, and write <y> ~  
>>>>>>> <e>
>>>>>>>    (in
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /dictionaries <ÿ> ~ <ë>) where Middle Cornish has /I/ and / 
>>>>>>> I:/,
>>>>>>>    but
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Late Cornish has /e/ and /e:/.*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /* *
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*Examples:*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*SWF <brentin>; RMC /”brentin/, RLC /”brentin/;*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*SWF <kegyn>; RMC /”kegin/, RLC /”keg at n/;*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*SWF <tir>; RMC /ti:r/, RLC /ti:r/;*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*SWF <bys> ~ <bes>; RMC */bI:z/ = [bi:z] ~ [bIz] ~ [beIz]
>>>>>>>    etc., RLC
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    //be:z/;*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /* *
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*Dan*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /* *
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /* *
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /*-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /From: Michael Everson
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 11:31 PM*
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /At 21:46 +0100 2008-07-20, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>    /Good question - if <y> is a short i and <i> a long one, then
>>>>>>>>    this makes
>>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>>    /no sense at all.
>>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /“That is the SWF (and KS) rule for monosyllables. In KS we  
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>    making
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /an attempt to rationalize (and make teachable) the
>>>>>>>    distribution of
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /<i> and <y>.
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Nicholas and I tried many times to have this distribution
>>>>>>>    dealt with
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /during the AHG meetings when we were asked our advice. Our
>>>>>>>    concerns
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /were not addressed. Not even acknowledged.
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /--
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com”
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>    /http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /_______________________________________________
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>    /
>>>>>>             
>>>>>    /
>>>>>
>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>    Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>    Spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:Spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>    http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>    /
>>>>>           
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    /
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Spellyans mailing list
>>>>    Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>    http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>    /
>>>>
>>>> /
>>>>
>>>> /
>>>>
>>>> /_____________________________________
>>>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>>>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>>>> University of Kent
>>>> /
>>>>
>>>> -- Be Yourself @ mail.com!
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>>>>         
>>>>> !
>>>>>           
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
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>>>       
>>
>> _____________________________________
>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>> University of Kent
>>
>>
>> -- 
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