From Kernuack at aol.com Fri Jun 6 15:27:52 2008 From: Kernuack at aol.com (Kernuack at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:27:52 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish Language Message-ID: I have now subscribed to the Spellyans list. My name is Mina Dresser. I live in Truro. I am Secretary of the Cornish Language Council ( Cussel an Tavas Kernuak). I am a teacher of Modern Cornish. I am a mermber of the Cornish Language Partnership and I was a member of the Ad Hoc Group which met recently to take a decision on the SWF to be used in official circles and in schools. I look forward to this being a serious discussion platform since are at a very exciting point in the development of the Cornish language. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christian.semmens at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 15:41:29 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:41:29 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: My name is Christian Semmens. Although my family hails from West Cornwall I am currently living in splendid isolation from the Cornish community in rural Leicestershire. My particular area of interest is the Traditional Form. I want to see the SWF achieve its potential, but feel that there is still some way to go before it reaches an acceptable standard. Oll an gewlla, Christian From teli7777 at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 23:41:54 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:41:54 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction by Terry Corbett Message-ID: <4849BD24.2040106@gmail.com> I am a retired teacher. My advanced training was in reading. I taught in a bilingual school. I live in New Mexico near the Mexican border. When I decided to learn a Celtic language I decided on Cornish which is one of my ancestral tongues. I first began learning Cornish in the 1990s but I was soon put off by the spelling debates. I became interested again when I found the Yahoo group Cornish Orthography. I am still searching for answers about what the phonology of Cornish was and what the best way is to represent it to make it as inclusive of all periods as well as easy to learn. From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 7 10:53:30 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:53:30 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Eddie Climo Message-ID: <7EB42995-E9C8-403D-B32A-7B91828D8688@yahoo.co.uk> We've each been asked to give a brief bio of ourself, and our interest in Cornish orthography. I'm a Science graduate, but have many years of involvement in languages and linguistics. Started learning Welsh and Scots Gaelic back in the early '80s. Although I've been peripherally involved in the Cornish revival for a long time, it was only a couple of years ago that I began to actively study it, in the form of UC and UCR. My intention with Cornish is to achieve the highest level of fluency I can manage, and to create original and translated books in the language. In addition to many years' experience as a hands-on linguist, I can bring to bear some 20 years semi-pro background in typography, graphics and desk-top publishing. My main focus in languages is the way each one offers a different window on the world, through the range of words and idioms it provides, and the unique 'taste' of each on the tongue and in the ears. For instance, I find it exciting that the Cornish word tremena covers both (literal) physical movement as well as the (metaphorical) movement from life into death . . . .. . . or, that Cornish offers more than English does in the ways of expressing emphasis or certainty/uncertainty . . . .. . . or that the Celtic words for 'wine' (C. gwyn, W. gwin, G. f?on . . .), along with their many european cognates, can be traced back to Latin 'vinum' and Greek 'oinos', and are (apparently) related to Sanskrit 'veni-', a braid of hair (for the twining habit of the vine plant!). So, it's semantics, stylistics, syntax and etymology that really turn me on, and, to a lesser extent, grammar. Orthography and phonology I recognise as being vital matters to have sorted out in a language, although they don't interest me nearly as much. Eddie Foirbeis Climo eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Is s?os a' bhothar fada gun e?las 's a th?id sinn. Ahes an forth hyr hep wothvos y tremenynyn. It's the long and unknown road we pass along. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 12:18:55 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:18:55 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: My name is Nicholas Williams. I am (recently retired) professor in Celtic Languages in University College, Dublin. I started learning Unified Cornish in 1959. I was made bard in Newquay in 1962 for proficiency in Cornish. I have written several books on and in Cornish including, Cornish Today, Clappya Kernowek, Gerlyver-Sawsnek Kernowek, An Testament Noweth, Towards Authentic Cornish and Writings on Revived Cornish. Together with Graham Thomas I edited Bewnans Ke for the University of Exeter Press. I contribute regularly to Cornish Studies on the Cornish language, my most recent articles being 'I-affection in Breton and Cornish' (CS 14) and 'the Cornish englyn' (CS 15). I was the originator of UCR and I have been involved in the elaboration of Kernowak Standard. I was a member of the Partnership's Linguistic Working Group and an adviser to the AHG. From s.hewitt at unesco.org Sat Jun 7 12:18:56 2008 From: s.hewitt at unesco.org (Hewitt, Stephen) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:18:56 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: Steve Hewitt Specialist in Breton, where I have a long-standing interest in orthographical questions, and have developed my own Middle-Breton-based "etymological orthography" which does a much better job than even the Interdialectal (Etrerannyezhel) orthography of predicting dialect reflexes. I have a good knowledge of Welsh, and some basic Irish. I am not certain that a phonemic SWF using only authentic, attested graphemes, and at the same time catering to several stages of the language, is entirely feasible, but I am certainly interested in the attempt. That being said, authentic graphemes are not necessarily the only solution; Modern Breton works very largely with several basic principles which are definitely not traditional , hard , and for ZH and OU orthographies <-s-> = /s/. If the Welsh system is largely authentic, this is because the traditional orthography performed amazingly well, and in many ways constituted a good supradialectal norm catering to both North and South Welsh. One question I have tried to ask on Kernowak, but was quickly shot down, concerns why medial is thought to have remained consistently voiceless, whereas medial (and even initial) and are generally agreed to have become voiced. In Breton, the corresponding phonemes in "defend", "mare", and "Breton" all became voiced in most dialects. Since the grapheme is demonstrably ambiguous for /th/ and /dh/, how can anyone tell? With regard to KS, I feel uncomfortable about the strong preference for marking pre-occlusion, with the idea that users preferring earlier stages could simply ignore it. The more usual solution in such cases is to allow divergent pronunciations to be derived from earlier forms. For instance, both Icelandic and Faroese have widespread pre-occlusion, but neither marks it in the orthography; it is automatically derived. Steve Hewitt From everson at evertype.com Sat Jun 7 15:39:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:39:28 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: I'm Michael Everson, a specialist in the writing systems of the world. I work in the area of Unicode character encoding. I am a typesetter and publisher. I have published a number of books about Cornish including Nicholas Williams' "Cornish Today", "Gerlyver-Sawsnek Kernowek", "Towards Authentic Cornish", "Writings on Revived Cornish" and "Form and Content in Revived Cornish". I typset all of those books, as well the splendid edition of Bewnans Ke published by the University of Exeter Press and Nicholas' An Testament Noweth. I am one of the principle authors of Kernowek Standard, and I was one of the linguistic advisers to the AHG. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 12:13:28 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:13:28 -0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Presentyans ma honan Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806080413m3cd62fd0q457e21a92cb57e8b@mail.gmail.com> Hail cothmans! Owen Cook o'vy. Menystryor an Wikipedia Kernowek o'ma. Wostalleth th ere'vy ?sya Kernewek Kemmyn rag p?b tra, saw formys diwedhes a'n taves o dhebm p?ppres dhe les. Y'n dhyw vledhen eus passyes, me wrug chanjya dre vroas dhe Gernowek Standard po an FSS. Nag o'vy esel a vagas na party vyth, mes me wrug kesobery gen an listednow KS hag UdnFormScrefys m'alle'nei cavos scrifa-composter d? a-barth Kernowek. Lowena dhywgh whei oll! ~~Owen From j.mills at email.com Mon Jun 9 08:57:40 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:57:40 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: <20080609075740.F23C9164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> I lecture in Linguistics in the School of European Culture and Languages at the University of Kent, Canterbury. Both my MA dissertation and my PhD thesis were on the Cornish language. I am interested in all aspects of Cornish linguistics. In relation to orthography, I am particularly interested in the epistemology of Cornish phonology and its repercussions for orthography. I also have a special interest in lexicology and its application, lexicography. I am currently working on an historical dictionary of Cornish (but don't hold your breath). Ol an gwella, Jon Mills > ----- Original Message ----- > From: menystror > To: j.mills at email.com > Subject: Spellyans > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:35:44 +0100 > > > Thanks for subscribing to Spellyans. Please write a few sentences > introducing yourself to the group and describing your interest in > the topic. You won't be allowed to post to the list until you do so. > > (If you sent one previously it seems to have got lost. Send to > spellyans at kernowek.net) > -- Gromercy dhis, > An Menystror > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- See Exclusive Videos: 10th Annual Young Hollywood Awards http://www.hollywoodlife.net/younghollywoodawards2008/ From nige.martin at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 11:39:28 2008 From: nige.martin at gmail.com (Nige Martin) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:39:28 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Personal Introduction Message-ID: My name is Nigel Martin. I was born in Illogan in 1963 and raised in Kernow until the age of 16 when I left home. Since then much of my working life has been spent within the UK and abroad, although my family home has remained in Kernow (ivo St. Austell). I am married with 2 teenage children. My ambition is to become fluent in Kernowek/Kernowak within 3 years now that a SWF has been agreed and I look forward to following an established syllabus in order to achieve this (I've nailed my colours to the mast). I am especially grateful to Michael Everson and the team for their sterling work to date, especially given the obstacles they have had to overcome. Being neither a 'scholar' nor a 'linguist', I am merely someone who promotes 'Cornishness' in a good light wherever I travel. Having worked in Portugal, and now Belgium, during the past 3 years more people (including the English) are aware of Cornwall, it's history and identity. Craig Wetherill's article "Cornwall not England" in issue 43 of 'Cornish World' interests me; I would like to learn more. Is there a Cornish hostory distance-learning course I could take? Initially my part in this forum will be minimal but, as my knowledge increases, my participation should increase and prove meaningful. Nige -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Mon Jun 9 13:15:49 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:15:49 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: <1213013749.484d1ef5226a2@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> I am a specialist in ancient languages, particularly Sumerian, who does some corpus-building and computational linguistics. I grew up in Plymouth, where Graham Sandercock was my geography teacher at school.... My family are all from North Cornwall, and I've been on the verge of learning Cornish for some years now without actually doing so. Real Soon Now, though. Steve From kenmackinnon at enterprise.net Mon Jun 9 17:35:34 2008 From: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:35:34 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] [Kernowak] Spellyans going live soon Message-ID: Ken MacKinnon. Lifelong interests in Celtic languages firmed up an interest in Cornish after publication of An Independent Academic Study of Cornish in 2000 ( commisioined by GOSW) Wartime evacuee in Cornwall ( Summercourt and St.Ives ) opened up awareness of Cornish language and subsequent acquisition of Gaelic (from his own family background). Has taken language board exams to third grade ( in Unified) and some of the fourth grade papers. Strong interest in KS - and also KD. Has atetnded KK weekends. Extensive research in Gaelic-speaking communities and sociodemographics. Hope this will do - an Ken ken (Prof) Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Mon Jun 9 19:58:04 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:58:04 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] bio Message-ID: <484D7D3C.3060506@freenet.co.uk> Ahanowgh oll wheg, The Moderator of this list has asked each participant to present their own introduction. Most will already know me but, for those who don't: My name is Craig Weatherhill, a native of West Penwith, the history, archaeology, traditions etc. of which I have studied since I was 8 years old. That was nearly half a century ago so, as you can see, I'm actually old enough to know better. I'm currently in my final year as Chairman of Agan Tavas and have taught elementary Cornish for some years (usually in the Fountain Inn, Newbridge which just happens to be my local). My speciality in the language is its history and, in particular, the research and study of place-names. I'm the author of two related books: Cornish Place Names and Language (fully revised edition published in 2007 - I'm proud to say that the original 1995 publication was the one of the biggest selling books about the language - about 15,000 sold); and Place Names in Cornwall and Scilly (2006). I have had several other books published, including two on Cornish archaeology. A third, "Return to Cornovia" is due to be published this year. Married (and divorced) just the once, and that was 18 years ago. So maybe I am now old enough to know better! No offspring, no current partner. Am a keen horseman and (at the moment) horse owner which is quite appropriate for a Sagittarian. (I say "at the moment" because the one actually owned by me, the old mare Larnie, is now 37 and long since retired - pretty amazing for a creature whose average life span is about 28. I do not own Paddy, whose picture was used as my avatar on Cornwall 24, which I no longer participate in). Installed as Bard of the Cornish Gorsedd in 1981 for services to Cornish archaeology, taking the Bardic name Delynyer Hendhyscans ("Draughtsman of Archaeology"). Resigned my Bardship in 1997, after the Gorsedd Council refused to act against a serious breach of the Gorsedd code by others (whose names would be no surprise to most of you). Am currently trying to complete the third novel ("The Tinners' Way") of the Trevelyan Trilogy which includes "The Lyonesse Stone" and "Seat of Storms". I try to pay the bills by freelancing as an architectural designer, after 24 years in local government, prior to which I was in the Royal Air Force. I was also an active footballer, a goalkeeper who appeared for Falmouth Town, Cornwall Schools and the full Cornwall side, as well as Plymouth Argyle (season 1967-68), and have even played in the F.A. Cup. I try to keep reasonably fit and am only half a stone heavier than in my goalkeeping days (to the intense relief of my sturdy steed). Oll an gwella, Craig From koumanonff at orange.fr Tue Jun 10 01:14:23 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:14:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: Th'oma deskajor en scol dow'ethek Frenkek ha Bretonek. Ma 'plekya dhe ve an 'ethow brethonek. Fenjama plekya dhe ve dyski moy 'dro dhe Gernowek. Kelenner on en ur skol divyezhek Galleg ha Brezhoneg. Plij' a ra din ar yezho? predenek. C'hoant 'mefe da zeski? muioc'h a Gerneveg. I'm a teacher in a French and Breton bilingual school. I like breton languages. I'd like to learn more about Cornish. Stefan Alliot From john_s_sheridan at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 11:51:02 2008 From: john_s_sheridan at yahoo.com (John Sheridan) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 03:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: <734547.67696.qm@web52308.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi all, John Sheridan here. Cousin Jack living in the New York City area. Great-great-great-grandson of Richard Tredinnick who emigrated from Cornwall to the States in the 1830s; still have many Tredinnick cousins near Mineral Point, Wisconsin, which attracted Cornish settlement because of the lead mines there. Began Cornish studies in 2000 using KDL and studying with Ben Bruch. Passed first grade "gans bri"; did not continue formally with KDL because I found the 2nd year story so impossibly boring. But continued to study (and eventually did work thru year 2 and read the story!) Have a good working knowledge of grammar and read well. Learning to speak in a vacuum is a different matter entirely and one I have not yet solved. Founder of the seemingly (unfortunately) moribund Yahoo list Yn Kernewek (which by the way would be a great place to practice new spellings). Musician; won first prize at the 2003 Gorseth for a Cornish church anthem I composed on a text from the Passion Play; traveled to the Gorseth to receive it. Also have won an award this year for two arrangements for harp of Cornish folk tunes, which will be published this summer. I completely understand that the only witness we have to the living Cornish language is a written one and thus I understand the strong desire for "authenticity". As these original spellings must be standardized and as the written language developed over time, I also understand why so much debate has arisen around what will be considered authentic and what not. This debate has often been dishearteningly virulent, and I still am not sure that it won't destroy the revival. I am not a linguist. My presence on this list is more as a learner and lover of the language than anything else. I am very moderate in my views and thus when I do speak up I generally am urging moderation and inclusivity. Thus I have not been opposed to the SWF, as I value what I see to be its overarching principle, which is one of inclusivity. However, I will be very interested to read, on this list, how the spelled language might be improved. Yn lel, -John Sheridan From deinioljones at btinternet.com Thu Jun 12 15:30:38 2008 From: deinioljones at btinternet.com (Deiniol Jones) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:30:38 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: I'm Deiniol Jones. I'm an undergraduate student of linguistics at the University of Southampton, who has more than a passing interest in Celtic linguistics due to being a native Welsh speaker. I'm here primarily as an interested observer and bystander, as my Cornish is rudimentary at best. Gans oll an gwella, Deiniol Jones From janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk Thu Jun 12 15:33:04 2008 From: janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk (janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:33:04 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: Th? vi Jan Lobb. Anurma th? vi anneilez, byz kenzennah thera vi deskaderez. Termen mi a ve iunk mi a vendzhah pyb ear deski an tavaz Kembr?an, byz nenna mi dhemedhaz Kernaw ha dhetermiaz dho vadra Kern?ak et i leh. Lebmen thera vi madra Kern?ak gen Mina Dresser ha teska descanzaw rag desgiblan nouydh. ==== I'm a retired lecturer, married for more years than I care to mention to a Cornishman. I've always been an enthusiast for languages and started to learn Modern Cornish with Mina Dresser as soon as I had the opportunity. Such is my enthusiasm (if not expertise) that I now take a weeklyn beginners' class in Truro. I have also been struggling to conduct e-mail lessons. What I would like to see from the SWF (though this may not be the view of the Cussel as a whole) is a consistent "formula" for switching between Dick's latest orthography (which I find assists pronunciation) and the SWF (which I will need to use for written work). So. I shall not be giving opinions so much as asking for advice and clarification. Ol an gwelha Jan Lobb From clive.baker at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 14:02:31 2008 From: clive.baker at gmail.com (Clive Baker) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:02:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: I have been teaching Unified Cornish at 1st grade entry level for about 9 or 10 years. I am on the Agan Tavas committee, and on the marketing committee of the CLP, and I believe most of those in the language movement know me. Clive Baker From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Mon Jun 16 13:33:28 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:33:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: Daniel Prohaska henwys o'vy. My a studhyas yethonieth Indo-Europek, Studhyansow Scandinavian ha Sowsnek orth Universita Vienna. Lebmyn thera'vy owth obery en wariva avell canor hag actour. Pur dhe les veu puppres tavosow minoryeth kefres ha dewyethieth. My a dhalathas desky Kernowek gen Richard Gendall in bledhednyow 1990, ha woja hedna sqwichya dhe KUA ha lebmyn scodhya tybyans furv sqwir scrifys may comprehend ha Kernowek Cres ha Kernowek Diwedhes. My name is Daniel Prohaska. I studied Indo-European Linguistics, Scandinavian Studies and English at the University of Vienna. Now I work in theatre as a singer and an actor. I have always been interested in minority languages and bilingualism. I started learning Cornish with Richard Gendall in the 1990s, then switched to UCR and support the idea of a standard written form that is inclusive of both Late and Middle Cornish. From rgoodey4 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 14:13:42 2008 From: rgoodey4 at hotmail.com (Ron Goodey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:13:42 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] bio Message-ID: A ysyly whek: Hello, apologies for the delay in sending this. My name is Ron Goodey and my interest in Celtic languages - especially Welsh and Cornish - began when I was a teenager (60+ years ago). I am very interested - as a lay person - in foreign languages and am acquainted with a number - French, German, Spanish, Japanese, Korean, Thai and others. In my early 20's I joined a European multinational and remained with them for 36 years in management positions, mainly in the Far East. I have lived in Thailand since 1977 and retired here 12 years ago and decided to ,"pick up" Cornish after so many years. I was astounded at learning what had happened in the late 1980's with Cornish. I am glad there are now many persons who are are very interested in/speak the language - plus the many activities that take place. In particular I am very happy tp be able to follow on the computer that the Revival has made tremendous strides forward over the years and is continuing to do so, despite the problem areas encountered. Gans gorhemmynadow an gwella, Ron _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 17 10:44:58 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:44:58 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: I am one eighth Cornish. I currently live in Essex. I am not a linguist but I have an interest in the Cornish language. I can write simple sentences in Cornish. I use a non-standard orthography at present, based on UCR. I do not speak Cornish (yet) perhaps just a few words. I hope to expand my knowledge and use of Cornish, perhaps converting to the SWF if and when it becomes a viable option. I believe that the ?SWF? will be good for Cornish. We just need to perfect it?preferably before it becomes irreparably entrenched, and at the very least, in good time for its 5-year review. My main concern is that the SWF should be as authentic as possible. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From marywilliams230 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 17 11:40:59 2008 From: marywilliams230 at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Williams) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:40:59 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: Hi! I'm Mary Williams, I live in Cornwall and became interested in the language in the last couple of years. I did French at school, but have hardly used it for real but can usually get the drift of written stuff and conversation (if not too fast!) but can't really speak it. I have been looking at what is available on Cornish in the libraries but find the different spellings (and different grammars) confusing! The differences are for me a real put off from learning the language, so I'm trying to get my head around the different approaches. I'm also trying not to be put off by some of the nasty arguments I have seen on Cornwall 24.. I really want to learn, but I don't want to start and then have to re-learn! I'd like to start a family before too long and would love to be able to bring my kids up with at least some Cornish! So, if it is all right with you, I'd like to sit in on your discussions which - I hope! - will help me to decide where to go from here. Mary From kevardhu at googlemail.com Mon Jun 23 19:20:35 2008 From: kevardhu at googlemail.com (Jonathan Kereve-Clarke) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:20:35 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: I've been interested in Cornish since studying my family History and the writings of Wella Rowe over ten years aog. I try to read some Cornish everyday, although have been incresingly concerned over the arguments and dubious spelling, which is why I haven't spent as much time studying as I'd like. Hopefully with a standard spelling albeit I will be able to obtain the fluency I've always wanted. Yn lel Jonathan From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 15:44:25 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:44:25 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] voiced and preocclusion Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806230744h502c1fa7i9a71a66772bd71da@mail.gmail.com> Hey Steve, how are you doing? Please don't take my comments in the spirit of "shooting you down", but rather as a friendly opening exchange of ideas. 2008/6/7 Hewitt, Stephen : > Steve Hewitt > > Specialist in Breton, where I have a long-standing interest in > orthographical questions, and have developed my own > Middle-Breton-based "etymological orthography" which does a much > better job than even the Interdialectal (Etrerannyezhel) orthography > of predicting dialect reflexes. That sounds very interesting! Can one have a look? Is it online anywhere? > I have a good knowledge of Welsh, and > some basic Irish. > > I am not certain that a phonemic SWF using only authentic, attested > graphemes, and at the same time catering to several stages of the > language, is entirely feasible, but I am certainly interested in the > attempt. That being said, authentic graphemes are not necessarily the > only solution; Modern Breton works very largely with several basic > principles which are definitely not traditional , hard , and > for ZH and OU orthographies <-s-> = /s/. If the Welsh system is > largely authentic, this is because the traditional orthography > performed amazingly well, and in many ways constituted a good > supradialectal norm catering to both North and South Welsh. Yes, I was very skeptical about it too at first, but I have been impressed at how well KS performs in practice. > One question I have tried to ask on Kernowak, but was quickly shot > down, concerns why medial is thought to have remained > consistently voiceless, whereas medial (and even initial) and > are generally agreed to have become voiced. In Breton, the > corresponding phonemes in "defend", "mare", and > "Breton" all became voiced in most dialects. Since the > grapheme is demonstrably ambiguous for /th/ and /dh/, how can > anyone tell? Cornish is extremely fortunate in that it does not have to rely on , which as you say is ambiguous with respect to voice (as is yogh). We also have the writings of Edward Lhuyd, who used the Greek tau for the voiceless phoneme and delta for the voiced version. I certainly can't recall seeing any instances of delta where we should expect tau, though any of us with copies or facsimiles of Archaeologia Britannica to hand can see whether they can spot any. > With regard to KS, I feel uncomfortable about the strong preference > for marking pre-occlusion, with the idea that users preferring > earlier stages could simply ignore it. The more usual solution in > such cases is to allow divergent pronunciations to be derived from > earlier forms. For instance, both Icelandic and Faroese have > widespread pre-occlusion, but neither marks it in the orthography; it > is automatically derived. The problem is that in Cornish, deriving pre-occlusion doesn't work particularly well, especially in compounds and antepenultimae. Pre-occlusion appears most of the time where it should, but not always, and sometimes it crops up where it theoretically shouldn't. In my opinion, the earlier editions of KS were correct in recommending and for all users. However, the latest edition of KS agreed with the SWF in permitting and here as well. I learned to write KK and pronounce with preocclusion. In theory, every time you had or in a stressed syllable, there should be preocclusion, and this was the theory I followed. I was quite heartily disillusioned to find how often this made me pronounce things wrong. Furthermore, neither nor is going to win any prizes for the most authentic or traditional grapheme, at least not when written at a syllable's end, as in 'penn'. The most common traditional spellings would have been 'pen' or 'pedn'. Given the choice between 'penn' or 'pedn', a true stickler for traditionalism will always opt for 'pedn'. A silent here should not be unacceptable given that we all live with silent in 'sign' and 'impugn'... Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 17:12:04 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:12:04 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish Message-ID: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could we first establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not adhere to the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, but posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late Cornish. I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the term Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of referring to the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear and the Creation (we can now add BK). I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to allow the pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived Cornish has half-length or long consonants (I do not include either bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset that any orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long and short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is moreover no difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn 'head' (if not pre-occluded). If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing nothing new. We are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long m in kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own speech and has indeed admitted that he does not. Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no half- length and no long consonants. In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the Specification are merely "aspirational" and should be removed: /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0. We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish in writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language and 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even exist in the speech of those who claim that they do. Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the sounds of the revived language? Nicholas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 20:08:52 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:08:52 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> For Middle Cornish, I would not be at all surprised if there had been a set of lenis sonorants /m n l r/ alongside a set of fortis sonorants, which at the risk of queering our SAMPA conventions I think we may need to write as /M N L R/. The reason I think the fortis sonorants may have existed in Middle Cornish is that there are different realizations of them in late Cornish -- most importantly preoccluded /bm dn/, but also sporadically some aspirated /lh/. I don't think that this scenario can totally be dismissed out of hand for Middle Cornish in terms of inherent implausibility, although I'm sure Jon and Nicholas will demand to see evidence which I regrettably can't provide. For one thing, my facsimile of Archaeologia Britannica is in storage nine thousand kilometres away. Now nobody has /M N L R/ in their phonetic repertoire in revived Cornish today (with the possible exception of Ben Bruch?), so these items are relevant only as far as their Late Cornish reflexes go. That means preocclusion, and in certain cases optional aspiration (I'm thinking for example of tolh, which Lhuyd wrote with an inverted lowercase L). /k: p: t: x: s: T:/ certainly do not exist as segments, the way they were assumed to in KK (ott, stopp, klokk, etc) but arise from sequences of /k+h p+h t+h h+h s+h T+h/ which commonly occur in comparatives and subjunctives. But does anyone really pronounce them at all differently from their non-geminate counterparts today? Perhaps Ben? Just my thoughts. ~~Owen 2008/6/23 nicholas williams : > Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could we first > establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation > we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not adhere to > the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, but > posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late > Cornish. > I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the term > Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate > form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of referring to > the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear and the Creation (we > can now add BK). > I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. > Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to allow the > pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both > half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived Cornish has > half-length or long consonants (I do not include either > bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset that any > orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent > the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long and > short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? > Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is moreover no > difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn 'head' (if not > pre-occluded). > If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing nothing new. We > are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first > suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. > The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long m in > kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. > He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own speech > and has indeed admitted that he does not. > Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no > half-length and no long consonants. > In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the Specification are > merely "aspirational" and should be removed: > /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0. > We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish in > writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language and > 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even exist in > the speech of those who claim that they do. > Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the sounds of > the revived language? > Nicholas > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From christian.semmens at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:16:26 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:16:26 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction Message-ID: My name is Christian Semmens. My family hail from St.Just and Botallack, and had it not been for National Service so would I, but as it transpired I was born in Somerset whilst my father was in the RAF. I currently live in a little village at the edge of east Leicestershire where we moved to in 1969 when my father left the RAF. I am married with an eight year old son, Talek. My interest in the Cornish language started with a copy of Heini Gruffudd's Cornish is Fun when I was about 15. After a couple of years at Plymouth Poly, where, strangely enough I was a student of Ken George (he was one of my Astronomy lecturers), I decided that I was not going to be a chemist and opted for an IT career. After a twenty year career in IT I currently work as an IT manager at DeMontfort University in Leicester where I run the team that is responsible for the University's central computing systems. I decided to revive my early interest in Cornish in the late Eighties and learned about the changes in orthography. Discovering that one of my lecturers was the inventor of Kemmyn I was excited, and bought both his first dictionary, Wella Brown's Grammar and Holyewgh an Lergh course to get me kick started along with the tapes. Within a few days I was horrified at what I had found (especially Graham Sandercock gargling and rolling his r's like a scottsman on the tape), so much so that I gave up the language in disgust for another twenty years, but always thought, "I'll start learning Cornish next week!". Finally I stumbled by accident into the bear pit that is the forums on C24 and after trading insults with a few Kemmyn zealots discovered the moves to develop a compromise form that lead me to discover the wonderful work done with KS. I am no linguist, but certainly enthusiastic. I can also tend to be rather verbose, so please accept my apologies in advance :) Christian From patmiller4 at btinternet.com Tue Jun 24 00:21:14 2008 From: patmiller4 at btinternet.com (Pat) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:21:14 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans Message-ID: Pat Miller of vy. Cornish born, I started studying the language 10 years ago, and it was some time later before I knew anything about the spelling rows. I wanted to learn Cornish and it happened to be a class run by a very successful teacher of UC. I obtained my 4th grade, becoming a Bard of Gorseth Kernow in 2002, since when I have been an assistant teacher working with 2nd/3rd and 4th grade UC students at that same class. I am the treasurer of Agan Tavas, and a traditionalist. I am not a linguist and I expect to be mostly watching the discussions with interest here. From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 01:39:54 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:39:54 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I assume that we are setting out to improve on the SWF. If so, we need to cater for all real Revived Cornish pronunciations from Early Middle Cornish till Dying Late Cornish, as that is what the SWF has set out to do. These pronunciations are known. All unreal (i.e. "aspirational") Revived Cornish pronunciations need not be catered for. These pronunciations are also known. Unfortunately, we don't know what the Traditional Cornish pronunciations were, especially for periods prior to Lhuyd. Revived Cornish pronunciation may therefore change if/when new information comes to light. I am quite happy to base the spelling on that found in Tudor Cornish. I am happy with the assumption that there are only two lengths for vowels (long & short). However, Traditional Cornish sometimes used double consonants. Perhaps, some of these were pronounced long, especially in comparative/superlative adjectives (e.g. the th in cotha "older") and in some verbal endings where a pronounced distinction would have been useful to clarify meaning. If this was the case, then all current speakers are wrong if all current speakers ignore this possible feature. For example (according to "Cornish Simplified"), "to say" is leverel, the 3rd person imperfect is levery, the 2nd person present subjunctive is leverry. Perhaps the double r would have been pronounced long. If so, I would be surprised if the sound of the preceding e were not affected in some way. I would expect it to become less obscure if not shorter. There are other examples: cara and carra; gweleugh and gwelleugh. I'm not sure which are re-constructions. When I say jyn, my tongue finishes farther back in my mouth than when I say pen where the tongue ends closer to my teeth. I think that the n of jyn is a little longer - though not a long nn. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From: nicholas williams Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 5:12 PM To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could we first establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not adhere to the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, but posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late Cornish. I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the term Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of referring to the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear and the Creation (we can now add BK). I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to allow the pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived Cornish has half-length or long consonants (I do not include either bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset that any orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long and short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is moreover no difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn 'head' (if not pre-occluded). If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing nothing new. We are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long m in kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own speech and has indeed admitted that he does not. Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no half-length and no long consonants. In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the Specification are merely "aspirational" and should be removed: /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0. We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish in writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language and 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even exist in the speech of those who claim that they do. Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the sounds of the revived language? Nicholas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 06:19:06 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:19:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <486083CA.9050501@freenet.co.uk> A name like Semmens can only hail from St Just/Botallack - and a lot of them are still there. Just outside St Just is Semmens Coal and Oil Yard; a Semmens whose first name escapes me for the moment was, until recently, the regular full-back for St Just rugby club, and Adrian Semmens is currently Chairman of Penwith Council's Planning committee. The Queen's Arms, Botallack (mentioned in both of Hammond Innes's novels, "Wreckers must Breathe" and "The Killer Mine") is where my drunken Irish horse and I can often be found during the lunchtime periods at weekends. Craig Christian Semmens wrote: > My name is Christian Semmens. My family hail from St.Just and > Botallack, and had it not been for National Service so would I, but as > it transpired I was born in Somerset whilst my father was in the RAF. > I currently live in a little village at the edge of east > Leicestershire where we moved to in 1969 when my father left the RAF. > I am married with an eight year old son, Talek. > > My interest in the Cornish language started with a copy of Heini > Gruffudd's Cornish is Fun when I was about 15. After a couple of years > at Plymouth Poly, where, strangely enough I was a student of Ken > George (he was one of my Astronomy lecturers), I decided that I was > not going to be a chemist and opted for an IT career. After a twenty > year career in IT I currently work as an IT manager at DeMontfort > University in Leicester where I run the team that is responsible for > the University's central computing systems. I decided to revive my > early interest in Cornish in the late Eighties and learned about the > changes in orthography. Discovering that one of my lecturers was the > inventor of Kemmyn I was excited, and bought both his first > dictionary, Wella Brown's Grammar and Holyewgh an Lergh course to get > me kick started along with the tapes. Within a few days I was > horrified at what I had found (especially Graham Sandercock gargling > and rolling his r's like a scottsman on the tape), so much so that I > gave up the language in disgust for another twenty years, but always > thought, "I'll start learning Cornish next week!". Finally I stumbled > by accident into the bear pit that is the forums on C24 and after > trading insults with a few Kemmyn zealots discovered the moves to > develop a compromise form that lead me to discover the wonderful work > done with KS. > > I am no linguist, but certainly enthusiastic. I can also tend to be > rather verbose, so please accept my apologies in advance :) > > Christian > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From christian.semmens at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:40:20 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:40:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction In-Reply-To: <486083CA.9050501@freenet.co.uk> References: <486083CA.9050501@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: I think I'm related to the coal and oil merchants on the hill, also to the Eddys (used to be the landlord of the Wellington c 1900), Penroses, Tippetts, Samsons etc... My uncle lives in Chapel St., I shouldn't say any more or might get identified :) ("Oh... you're one of them Semmenses!") Actually I'm back in St. Just on the 16th July for a week or so, I might catch you in there as we walk up the cliff path. I'll keep my eye out for the horse! :) Christian 2008/6/24 Craig Weatherhill : > A name like Semmens can only hail from St Just/Botallack - and a lot of > them are still there. Just outside St Just is Semmens Coal and Oil > Yard; a Semmens whose first name escapes me for the moment was, until > recently, the regular full-back for St Just rugby club, and Adrian > Semmens is currently Chairman of Penwith Council's Planning committee. > The Queen's Arms, Botallack (mentioned in both of Hammond Innes's > novels, "Wreckers must Breathe" and "The Killer Mine") is where my > drunken Irish horse and I can often be found during the lunchtime > periods at weekends. > > Craig > > Christian Semmens wrote: >> My name is Christian Semmens. My family hail from St.Just and >> Botallack, and had it not been for National Service so would I, but as >> it transpired I was born in Somerset whilst my father was in the RAF. >> I currently live in a little village at the edge of east >> Leicestershire where we moved to in 1969 when my father left the RAF. >> I am married with an eight year old son, Talek. >> >> My interest in the Cornish language started with a copy of Heini >> Gruffudd's Cornish is Fun when I was about 15. After a couple of years >> at Plymouth Poly, where, strangely enough I was a student of Ken >> George (he was one of my Astronomy lecturers), I decided that I was >> not going to be a chemist and opted for an IT career. After a twenty >> year career in IT I currently work as an IT manager at DeMontfort >> University in Leicester where I run the team that is responsible for >> the University's central computing systems. I decided to revive my >> early interest in Cornish in the late Eighties and learned about the >> changes in orthography. Discovering that one of my lecturers was the >> inventor of Kemmyn I was excited, and bought both his first >> dictionary, Wella Brown's Grammar and Holyewgh an Lergh course to get >> me kick started along with the tapes. Within a few days I was >> horrified at what I had found (especially Graham Sandercock gargling >> and rolling his r's like a scottsman on the tape), so much so that I >> gave up the language in disgust for another twenty years, but always >> thought, "I'll start learning Cornish next week!". Finally I stumbled >> by accident into the bear pit that is the forums on C24 and after >> trading insults with a few Kemmyn zealots discovered the moves to >> develop a compromise form that lead me to discover the wonderful work >> done with KS. >> >> I am no linguist, but certainly enthusiastic. I can also tend to be >> rather verbose, so please accept my apologies in advance :) >> >> Christian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:48:49 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:48:49 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There probably were long ~ short n m l in Cornish. These survive as dn bm and lh or ll. I was careful to mention these in my first statement. Lhuyd also suggests that initial r was voiceless [hr]. In which case there was probably an oppositin rh/R ~ r in Cornish as well. My objection is to the positing of long stops for the SWF and s: T: (the voiceless continuant) and x:, which nobody uses. Can we agree that these last items are not part of the language and do not need to be accommodated? Nicholas On 23 Jun 2008, at 20:08, Owen Cook wrote: > For Middle Cornish, I would not be at all surprised if there had been > a set of lenis sonorants /m n l r/ alongside a set of fortis > sonorants, which at the risk of queering our SAMPA conventions I think > we may need to write as /M N L R/. The reason I think the fortis > sonorants may have existed in Middle Cornish is that there are > different realizations of them in late Cornish -- most importantly > preoccluded /bm dn/, but also sporadically some aspirated /lh/. I > don't think that this scenario can totally be dismissed out of hand > for Middle Cornish in terms of inherent implausibility, although I'm > sure Jon and Nicholas will demand to see evidence which I regrettably > can't provide. For one thing, my facsimile of Archaeologia Britannica > is in storage nine thousand kilometres away. > > Now nobody has /M N L R/ in their phonetic repertoire in revived > Cornish today (with the possible exception of Ben Bruch?), so these > items are relevant only as far as their Late Cornish reflexes go. That > means preocclusion, and in certain cases optional aspiration (I'm > thinking for example of tolh, which Lhuyd wrote with an inverted > lowercase L). > > /k: p: t: x: s: T:/ certainly do not exist as segments, the way they > were assumed to in KK (ott, stopp, klokk, etc) but arise from > sequences of /k+h p+h t+h h+h s+h T+h/ which commonly occur in > comparatives and subjunctives. But does anyone really pronounce them > at all differently from their non-geminate counterparts today? Perhaps > Ben? > > Just my thoughts. > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/23 nicholas williams : >> Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could >> we first >> establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation >> we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not >> adhere to >> the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, but >> posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late >> Cornish. >> I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the >> term >> Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate >> form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of >> referring to >> the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear and the >> Creation (we >> can now add BK). >> I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. >> Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to >> allow the >> pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both >> half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived >> Cornish has >> half-length or long consonants (I do not include either >> bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset >> that any >> orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent >> the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long >> and >> short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? >> Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is >> moreover no >> difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn 'head' (if not >> pre-occluded). >> If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing >> nothing new. We >> are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first >> suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. >> The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long >> m in >> kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. >> He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own >> speech >> and has indeed admitted that he does not. >> Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no >> half-length and no long consonants. >> In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the >> Specification are >> merely "aspirational" and should be removed: >> /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0. >> We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish in >> writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language and >> 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even >> exist in >> the speech of those who claim that they do. >> Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the >> sounds of >> the revived language? >> Nicholas >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 10:18:14 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:18:14 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than the other forms of Cornish. Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 lengths.?For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: bit - beat bid - bead his - he's etc. With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any forms contained therein is conjectural. The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "nicholas williams" To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:12:04 +0100 Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could we first establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not adhere to the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, but posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late Cornish.? I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the term Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of referring to the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear and the Creation (we can now add BK). I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to allow the pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived Cornish has half-length or long consonants (I do not include either bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset that any orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long and short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is moreover no difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn 'head' (if not pre-occluded). If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing nothing new. We are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long m in kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own speech and has indeed admitted that he does not.? Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no half-length and no long consonants.? In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the Specification are merely "aspirational" and should be removed: /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0.? We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish in writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language and 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even exist in the speech of those who claim that they do. Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the sounds of the revived language? Nicholas _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 10:54:17 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:54:17 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <652258AE-C417-40FF-864E-6B62094F847B@gmail.com> Thank you for that, Jon. It is generally agreed that revived Cornish has two lengths of vowel and one of consonants. If people wish to distinguish n, m, r, l from their 'long' equivalents they can do so with nn, mm, rr and ll. I am myself unhappy about mm as /m:/ because m is ipso facto a fortis. The lenis m was lenited to v in the pre-Cornish period. I think we all agree that long consonants (apart possibly from nn, ll, etc.) are a fiction and do not need to be marked or catered for. The next question is whether to accommodate three long hight front vowel i: I: and e: as is the case at present in the SWF specification. The SWF allows bI:z for 'world', for example, which nobody actually says. This matter involves the distribution of and (both for long and short vowels) and will need a lot of attention. Nicholas. On 24 Jun 2008, at 10:18, Jon Mills wrote: > Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is > supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most > learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and > geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than > the other forms of Cornish. > > Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 > lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith > (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin > hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high > front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the > longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too > -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even > with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than > in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is > a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > > However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel > lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: > bit - beat > bid - bead > his - he's > etc. > > With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 > vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical > corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable > because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any > forms contained therein is conjectural. > > The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to > be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF > make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long > consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. > My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners > would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > > Jon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nicholas williams" > To: spellyans at kernowek.net > Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:12:04 +0100 > > Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could > we first establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation > we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not > adhere to the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, > but > posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late > Cornish. > > > I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the > term Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate > form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of > referring to the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear > and the Creation (we can now add BK). > I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. > > > Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to > allow the pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both > half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived > Cornish has half-length or long consonants (I do not include either > bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset that > any orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent > the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long > and short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? > > > Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is > moreover no difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn > 'head' (if not pre-occluded). > If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing nothing > new. We are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first > suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. > > > The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long > m in kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. > He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own > speech and has indeed admitted that he does not. > > > Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no > half-length and no long consonants. > In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the > Specification are merely "aspirational" and should be removed: > > > /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0. > > > We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish > in writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language > and > 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even > exist in the speech of those who claim that they do. > > > Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the > sounds of the revived language? > > > Nicholas > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 10:59:08 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:59:08 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >the other forms of Cornish. It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) >Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >(1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >-- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the SWF. English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a phonemic distinction. >However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >bit - beat >bid - bead >his - he's >etc. I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. >With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >forms contained therein is conjectural. Quite so. >The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above relevant. In English we have qualitative phonemes: /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic lengthening /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic lengthening In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of Cornish phonemic quantity. Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic transcription.) -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 10:59:39 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:59:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 01:39 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >I assume that we are setting out to improve on the SWF. If so, we >need to cater for all real Revived Cornish pronunciations from Early >Middle Cornish till Dying Late Cornish, as that is what the SWF has >set out to do. That was its brief, yes. (Though I wouldn't use either of those terms; I would describe Revived Middle Cornish and Revived Late Cornish as two ends of a modern dialect continuum. >These pronunciations are known. All unreal (i.e. "aspirational") >Revived Cornish pronunciations need not be catered for. These >pronunciations are also known. One of the faults which I can identify in the SWF is that it does preserve, and thereby promote, "aspirational" pronunciations specified in Kernowek Kebmyn. >I am quite happy to base the spelling on that found in Tudor Cornish. KS, and thereby the SWF, began with Jordan's Creation of the World as the source for many graphs. I'd like Nicholas to say a word about the term "Tudor Cornish". It's not clear to me that what he intended with that term is what Bock and Bruch made of it. >I am happy with the assumption that there are only two lengths for >vowels (long & short). As are we, and as is the SWF. >When I say jyn, my tongue finishes farther back in my mouth than >when I say pen where the tongue ends closer to my teeth. I think >that the n of jyn is a little longer - though not a long nn. These words rhyme perfectly with English "gin" and "pen" (in RMC pronunciation; of course in RLC pronunciation the latter is "pedn"). -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 11:06:16 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:06:16 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On 24 Jun 2008, at 10:59, Michael Everson wrote: > At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >> the other forms of Cornish. > > It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) > >> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > > For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and > bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without > a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to > teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the > reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the > SWF. > > English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a > phonemic distinction. > >> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >> bit - beat >> bid - bead >> his - he's >> etc. > > I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in > quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in > quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. > >> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >> forms contained therein is conjectural. > > Quite so. > >> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > > I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above > relevant. > > In English we have qualitative phonemes: > > /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic > lengthening > > /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic > lengthening > > In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: > > /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering > > /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising > > With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use > English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of > Cornish phonemic quantity. > > Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will > use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic > transcription.) It is fine with me. > > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 11:11:48 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:11:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 11:06 +0100 2008-06-24, nicholas williams wrote: > > Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will >> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic >> transcription.) > >It is fine with me. That's one vote. :-) [As an aside, Nicholas (and everybody), could you delete the extraneous bits of postings and only send the bits you are actually commenting on? It makes it easier to see what you're actually saying....] -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 11:34:56 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:34:56 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would rather not include the graphs ggh and tth, even if the long sounds could be shown to exist. Do they exist in the Traditional Texts? I have not noticed any. I am not sure that you can have long stops, only double ones. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From: nicholas williams Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:48 AM To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish There probably were long ~ short n m l in Cornish. These survive as dn bm and lh or ll. I was careful to mention these in my first statement. Lhuyd also suggests that initial r was voiceless [hr]. In which case there was probably an oppositin rh/R ~ r in Cornish as well. My objection is to the positing of long stops for the SWF and s: T: (the voiceless continuant) and x:, which nobody uses. Can we agree that these last items are not part of the language and do not need to be accommodated? Nicholas On 23 Jun 2008, at 20:08, Owen Cook wrote: For Middle Cornish, I would not be at all surprised if there had been a set of lenis sonorants /m n l r/ alongside a set of fortis sonorants, which at the risk of queering our SAMPA conventions I think we may need to write as /M N L R/. The reason I think the fortis sonorants may have existed in Middle Cornish is that there are different realizations of them in late Cornish -- most importantly preoccluded /bm dn/, but also sporadically some aspirated /lh/. I don't think that this scenario can totally be dismissed out of hand for Middle Cornish in terms of inherent implausibility, although I'm sure Jon and Nicholas will demand to see evidence which I regrettably can't provide. For one thing, my facsimile of Archaeologia Britannica is in storage nine thousand kilometres away. Now nobody has /M N L R/ in their phonetic repertoire in revived Cornish today (with the possible exception of Ben Bruch?), so these items are relevant only as far as their Late Cornish reflexes go. That means preocclusion, and in certain cases optional aspiration (I'm thinking for example of tolh, which Lhuyd wrote with an inverted lowercase L). /k: p: t: x: s: T:/ certainly do not exist as segments, the way they were assumed to in KK (ott, stopp, klokk, etc) but arise from sequences of /k+h p+h t+h h+h s+h T+h/ which commonly occur in comparatives and subjunctives. But does anyone really pronounce them at all differently from their non-geminate counterparts today? Perhaps Ben? Just my thoughts. ~~Owen 2008/6/23 nicholas williams : Before any discussion of how the SWF may need to be emended, could we first establish which pronunciation or varieties of pronunciation we are going to use as our basis. The SWF specification does not adhere to the pronunciation of current speakers of revived Cornish, but posits three differing forms, Middle Cornish, Tudor Cornish and Late Cornish. I have in the past been severely criticised for even suggesting the term Tudor Cornish, since such an entity never existed as a separate form of the language. I meant it simply as a convenient way of referring to the foundation texts of UCR: Beunans Meriasek, Tregear and the Creation (we can now add BK). I have never suggested that Tudor Cornish was an entity in itself. Now, however, Bruch and Bock do just that, in order it seems to allow the pronunciation suggested for KK, which has both half-length and long consonants. Since *no speaker* of revived Cornish has half-length or long consonants (I do not include either bm, dn or lh here), can we please make it clear from the outset that any orthography for Cornish should attempt to represent the language as it is spoken by *all* speakers, i.e. with only long and short vowels, and only one unmarked length for consonants? Thus the a in tas is long and the a in tasow is short. There is moreover no difference between the n in jyn 'engine' and penn 'head' (if not pre-occluded). If we insist on these two points at the outset, we are doing nothing new. We are merely accepting the sounds of Cornish as first suggested by Jenner, and agreed by Nance, Caradar and Gendall. The odd man out in this whole question is George, who posits a long m in kemmyn for example and half-length in tasow. He does not, however, use his hypothetical pronunciation in his own speech and has indeed admitted that he does not. Revived Cornish (whatever orthography it uses) when spoken has no half-length and no long consonants. In which case the following "phonemes" mentioned in the Specification are merely "aspirational" and should be removed: /l: m: n: r: k: p: t: x: s: T:/ (see the Spec. page 18 ? 4.0. We cannot devise an accurate orthography if we need to distinguish in writing sounds which 1) did not exist in the traditional language and 2) certainly do not exist in contemporary speech and 3) do not even exist in the speech of those who claim that they do. Would it not be a good idea before we start to be honest about the sounds of the revived language? Nicholas _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christian.semmens at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 11:54:56 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:54:56 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I would support Andrew in this. Christian 2008/6/24 A. J. Trim : > I would rather not include the graphs ggh and tth, even if the long sounds > could be shown to exist. Do they exist in the Traditional Texts? I have not > noticed any. > I am not sure that you can have long stops, only double ones. > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 12:05:35 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:05:35 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >>Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >>supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >>learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >>geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >>the other forms of Cornish. > > It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) > >>Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >>lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >>(1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >>hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >>front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >>longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >>-- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >>with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >>in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >>a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > > For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and > bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without > a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to > teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the > reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the > SWF. > > English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a > phonemic distinction. > >>However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >>lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >>bit - beat >>bid - bead >>his - he's >>etc. > > I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in > quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in > quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. > >>With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >>vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >>corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >>because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >>forms contained therein is conjectural. > > Quite so. > >>The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >>be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >>make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >>consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >>My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >>would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > > I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above > relevant. > > In English we have qualitative phonemes: > > /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic > lengthening > > /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic > lengthening > > In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: > > /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering > > /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising > > With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use > English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of > Cornish phonemic quantity. > > Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will > use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic > transcription.) > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 12:24:57 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:24:57 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806240424s52a74b03pd611c9dd7a583f28@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/24 Jon Mills : > With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 vowel lengths, minimal contrast > sets (extracted from the historical corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is > questionable because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any forms contained > therein is conjectural. Yes, and Lhuyd's transcriptions certainly only indicate two vowel lengths -- long, indicated with a circumflex, and short, sometimes indicated with a pleonastic grave accent. By Lhuyd's time, the distribution of length was unpredictable even in penultimae. ~~Owen From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 12:48:42 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:48:42 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/24 nicholas williams : > The next question is whether to accommodate three long hight front vowel i: > I: and e: as is the case at present in > the SWF specification. The SWF allows bI:z for 'world', for example, which > nobody actually says. > This matter involves the distribution of and (both for long and > short vowels) and will need a lot of attention. > Nicholas. It does need a lot of attention. I suspect this will be the main topic of contention in our coming discussions. The variable (I:) was, if nothing else, a useful fiction at an earlier stage of KS, when we wrote to indicate alternations between /i:/ and /e:/ in words like 'deidh' and 'preis'. This compromise was abandoned in the SWF, however, which allows users to choose between 'dydh' or 'dedh', 'prys' or 'pres'. So now there is a problem in the SWF for Middle Cornish, where normally indicates the short vowel /I/, but, because of the rejection of , is also pressed into service for the long vowel in 'dydh' and 'prys' (which is theoretically /I:/ for Kemmyn users, and in practice /i:/ for revived Middle Cornish users generally). The latest incarnation of KS uses to indicate this long y, alternating with /e:/. Again (I:) here appears as a distinct variable. But there's something really incoherent about requiring the special character in 'dedh' and 'pres', as the latest version of KS does. Either we should allow alternation, by which and can coexist (and remember, here we need the accent on to show length) ... or else we should use an umbrella graph to cover both alternants, for example or . If were used as an umbrella graph by everybody, well and good. But I fail to see any point in having alternate with . My own opinion is that for a SINGLE written form, umbrella graphs should be preferred to alternation wherever practical. In that sense, (I:) has its uses and could still be accommodated. I argued for last summer, and my feelings have not changed. True, has been shanghaied into use for the diphthong in 'kei', 'chei', 'crei', but this is found in a different environment (open syllables only) and we shall no doubt have reason to discuss whether it is necessary or useful for such words in the first place. ~~Owen From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 13:04:05 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:04:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y723464 7etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:34 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >I would rather not include the graphs ggh and tth, even if the long >sounds could be shown to exist. Do they exist in the Traditional >Texts? I have not noticed any. They exist in Tregear. Please see http://www.evertype.com/kernowek/ahg-discussion-tth-nh-lh.pdf for a discussion of this problem. , and show aspiration with an optional secondary gemination. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 13:13:44 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:13:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y723464 7etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 13:04 +0100 2008-06-24, Michael Everson wrote: >At 11:34 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >>I would rather not include the graphs ggh and tth, even if the long >>sounds could be shown to exist. Do they exist in the Traditional >>Texts? I have not noticed any. > >They exist in Tregear. (But not as far as I know.) -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 14:03:10 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:03:10 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If [I:] is just "aspirational", then we don't need to accommodate it. If the vowel is [i:], we could write bis, didh, pris. If some people legitimately want to say [e:] instead, they could write bes, dedh, pres. I could live with beis, deidh, preis as a compromise. However, umbrella graph solutions such as this make learning to spell more difficult. We don't want to allow alternative spellings else we won't have a single written form. As the aim is for a single form rather than for an easy form, I recommend . The Late Cornish chei, kei, crei could be written chy, ky, cry. Final could be an umbrella graph for the <-i> & <-ei> of the current SWF, and the result looks more authentically based on Tudor spelling. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Owen Cook" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 12:48 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > 2008/6/24 nicholas williams : >> The next question is whether to accommodate three long hight front vowel >> i: >> I: and e: as is the case at present in >> the SWF specification. The SWF allows bI:z for 'world', for example, >> which >> nobody actually says. >> This matter involves the distribution of and (both for long and >> short vowels) and will need a lot of attention. >> Nicholas. > > It does need a lot of attention. I suspect this will be the main topic > of contention in our coming discussions. > > The variable (I:) was, if nothing else, a useful fiction at an earlier > stage of KS, when we wrote to indicate alternations between /i:/ > and /e:/ in words like 'deidh' and 'preis'. This compromise was > abandoned in the SWF, however, which allows users to choose between > 'dydh' or 'dedh', 'prys' or 'pres'. > > So now there is a problem in the SWF for Middle Cornish, where > normally indicates the short vowel /I/, but, because of the rejection > of , is also pressed into service for the long vowel in 'dydh' and > 'prys' (which is theoretically /I:/ for Kemmyn users, and in practice > /i:/ for revived Middle Cornish users generally). > > The latest incarnation of KS uses to indicate this long y, > alternating with /e:/. Again (I:) here appears as a distinct variable. > But there's something really incoherent about requiring the special > character in 'dedh' and 'pres', as the latest version of KS does. > Either we should allow alternation, by which and can coexist > (and remember, here we need the accent on to show length) ... or > else we should use an umbrella graph to cover both alternants, for > example or . If were used as an umbrella graph by > everybody, well and good. But I fail to see any point in having > alternate with . > > My own opinion is that for a SINGLE written form, umbrella graphs > should be preferred to alternation wherever practical. In that sense, > (I:) has its uses and could still be accommodated. I argued for > last summer, and my feelings have not changed. True, has been > shanghaied into use for the diphthong in 'kei', 'chei', 'crei', but > this is found in a different environment (open syllables only) and we > shall no doubt have reason to discuss whether it is necessary or > useful for such words in the first place. > > ~~Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 14:13:23 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:13:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) and representing the long. Craig A. J. Trim wrote: > OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. > > Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Everson" > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > > >> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >> >>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >>> the other forms of Cornish. >>> >> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) >> >> >>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." >>> >> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and >> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without >> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to >> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the >> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the >> SWF. >> >> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a >> phonemic distinction. >> >> >>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >>> bit - beat >>> bid - bead >>> his - he's >>> etc. >>> >> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in >> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in >> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. >> >> >>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >>> forms contained therein is conjectural. >>> >> Quite so. >> >> >>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. >>> >> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above >> relevant. >> >> In English we have qualitative phonemes: >> >> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic >> lengthening >> >> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic >> lengthening >> >> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: >> >> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering >> >> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising >> >> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use >> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of >> Cornish phonemic quantity. >> >> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will >> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic >> transcription.) >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 14:10:47 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:10:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:05 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. > >Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? It's a bit of redundancy. No harm. tol and toll would be [to:l] and [tOl]. In the case of monosyllables we have i and y to differentiate but I think it's better to keep the regular distribution of -l after long vowels and -ll after short. We've done the same with -r and -rr, and that was taken up by the SWF. So here there is no error or inconsistency to fix. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 14:23:30 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:23:30 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240424s52a74b03pd611c9dd7a583f28@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240424s52a74b03pd611c9dd7a583f28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4860F552.508@freenet.co.uk> And, as I've said many times, Lhuyd is our ONLY guide to Cornish phonology that was recorded when the language was still a community vernacular. What the phonology was prior to that period remais an unknown. We can guess, based upon rhymes etc., but even English poetry has approximate rhyming values. My view would be to use Jordan as the basis for orthography (retaining the scribal tradition which disappears under Gwavas, Boson, etc, who never apparently saw any traditional Cornish writings but wrote the language as they heard it), but Lhuyd as the basis for phonology. Dick Gendall's "The Pronunciation of Cornish", which is a examination of Lhuyd's phonetic code, is a vital document. Further to Late Cornish orthogrphy, more emphasis needs to be placed upon Keigwin's writings. Although a contemporary of the Bosons, he was a linguistic scholar and was familiar with textual material. His own variation on the last 16 lines of Jordan scarcely varies from the orthography that Jordan himself used (and that only around 70 years previously). For me, Jordan/Keigwin IS the true orthography of Late Cornish, rather than the reconstructed spellings used by those several Late scribes who never saw traditional Cornish writing. Craig Owen Cook wrote: > 2008/6/24 Jon Mills : > >> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 vowel lengths, minimal contrast >> sets (extracted from the historical corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is >> questionable because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any forms contained >> therein is conjectural. >> > > Yes, and Lhuyd's transcriptions certainly only indicate two vowel > lengths -- long, indicated with a circumflex, and short, sometimes > indicated with a pleonastic grave accent. By Lhuyd's time, the > distribution of length was unpredictable even in penultimae. > > ~~Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 14:36:05 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:36:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Does Tregear have as well? How do we know that cottha and perfettha did not have [t] (as in "try") rather than [T] (as in "thigh")? Wouldn't we expect cothha and perfethha instead? Personally, I would avoid including these. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:04 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish > At 11:34 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >>I would rather not include the graphs ggh and tth, even if the long >>sounds could be shown to exist. Do they exist in the Traditional >>Texts? I have not noticed any. > > They exist in Tregear. > > Please see > http://www.evertype.com/kernowek/ahg-discussion-tth-nh-lh.pdf for a > discussion of this problem. > > , and show aspiration with an optional secondary > gemination. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 14:42:09 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:42:09 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624134209.41A7A1CE303@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> There are examples of [I:] to be found in AB: rŷdh: Plobm rŷdh, Sinople, red lead or vermilion [91a]. This also found with short vowel: Risk ha reden rydh, Bark and red Fern [229a] Bŷth: Bŷth ni, Never [249a]. Aụoz tra vŷth, Above any thing [249b]. vŷth, At all [249a]. Ni ? vŷth, Never [249a]. ?Byth? without circumflex is not attested in AB. However it does alternate with B?th and veth [244c]. ŷz: Pedn ŷz, An Ear of Corn. This item provides a minimal contrast pair with the verbal particle, ?yz?; Yz eziz a k?l hụ?l ẏmma. bŷz: Gụyn agan bŷz [250b]. Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "nicholas williams" To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:54:17 +0100 The next question is whether to accommodate three long hight front vowel i: I: and e: as is the case at present in the SWF specification. The SWF allows bI:z for 'world', for example, which nobody actually says. This matter involves the distribution of and (both for long and short vowels) and will need a lot of attention. Nicholas. _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 14:43:13 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Weatherhill" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have > where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there > to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, > royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? > > Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have > representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) > and representing the long. > > Craig > > > > > A. J. Trim wrote: >> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. >> >> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Andrew J. Trim >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Michael Everson" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >> >> >>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >>> >>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >>>> the other forms of Cornish. >>>> >>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) >>> >>> >>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." >>>> >>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and >>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without >>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to >>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the >>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the >>> SWF. >>> >>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a >>> phonemic distinction. >>> >>> >>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >>>> bit - beat >>>> bid - bead >>>> his - he's >>>> etc. >>>> >>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in >>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in >>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. >>> >>> >>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. >>>> >>> Quite so. >>> >>> >>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. >>>> >>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above >>> relevant. >>> >>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: >>> >>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic >>> lengthening >>> >>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic >>> lengthening >>> >>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: >>> >>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering >>> >>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising >>> >>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use >>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of >>> Cornish phonemic quantity. >>> >>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will >>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic >>> transcription.) >>> -- >>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 14:43:52 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:52 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y723464 7etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 14:36 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >Does Tregear have as well? Not to my knowledge. >How do we know that cottha and perfettha did not have [t] (as in "try") >rather than [T] (as in "thigh")? >Wouldn't we expect cothha and perfethha instead? and are both valid ways of writing [Th] (voiceless "th" followed by "h" but as a practical matter of writing systems is easier to write; it is more familiar to the hand. Compare "Matthew". simply looks better than . It's also one of the graphs in the SWF, and it's what Tregear used so it's authentic. The graph is not attested. The mistake the SWF made was in admitting this but not admitting and . That's inconsistent. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 14:51:39 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: At 14:43 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is >short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) In KS, is [i:@] and is [j?] or [j@] depending on stress. As far as I know that should obtain in the SWF as well. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 14:59:27 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:59:27 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/24 A. J. Trim : > The Late Cornish chei, kei, crei could be written chy, ky, cry. > Final could be an umbrella graph for the <-i> & <-ei> of the current > SWF, and the result looks more authentically based on Tudor spelling. Yes, I agree with this suggestion too. Actually, Jenner wrote y-circumflex in such items, and personally I think this would be the best solution for our purposes as well. (Michael, however, will raise font limitations as an objection. Personally, I rarely use a font unless it has extensive Unicode support, so this is irrelevant to me, but there's probably something to it for the majority of Cornish users.) ~~Owen From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 15:42:45 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:42:45 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. J. Trim" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 > > > Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is > short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Craig Weatherhill" > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > > > The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have > > where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there > > to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, > > royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? > > > > Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have > > representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) > > and representing the long. > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > A. J. Trim wrote: > >> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. > >> > >> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Andrew J. Trim > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Michael Everson" > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM > >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > >> > >> > >>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: > >>> > >>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is > >>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most > >>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and > >>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than > >>>> the other forms of Cornish. > >>>> > >>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) > >>> > >>> > >>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 > >>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith > >>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin > >>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high > >>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the > >>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too > >>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even > >>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than > >>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is > >>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > >>>> > >>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and > >>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without > >>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to > >>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the > >>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the > >>> SWF. > >>> > >>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a > >>> phonemic distinction. > >>> > >>> > >>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel > >>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: > >>>> bit - beat > >>>> bid - bead > >>>> his - he's > >>>> etc. > >>>> > >>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in > >>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in > >>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. > >>> > >>> > >>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 > >>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical > >>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable > >>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any > >>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. > >>>> > >>> Quite so. > >>> > >>> > >>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to > >>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF > >>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long > >>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. > >>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners > >>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > >>>> > >>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above > >>> relevant. > >>> > >>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: > >>> > >>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic > >>> lengthening > >>> > >>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic > >>> lengthening > >>> > >>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: > >>> > >>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering > >>> > >>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising > >>> > >>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use > >>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of > >>> Cornish phonemic quantity. > >>> > >>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will > >>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic > >>> transcription.) > >>> -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Spellyans mailing list > >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Spellyans mailing list > >> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 15:57:06 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:57:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <48610B42.5040401@freenet.co.uk> As far as I'm aware, stress is only brought to the second syllable of in the place-name Rialton and there it is influenced by the later addition of OE tun "farm, settlement". Stress might also (but very arguably) be on its second syllable in the mid C6 Men Scryfa inscription: RIALOBRANI CVNOVALI FILI. Otherwise, stress is on the first syllable. Craig A. J. Trim wrote: > Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is > short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Craig Weatherhill" > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > > >> The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have >> where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there >> to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, >> royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? >> >> Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have >> representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) >> and representing the long. >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> >> A. J. Trim wrote: >> >>> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. >>> >>> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Andrew J. Trim >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Michael Everson" >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM >>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >>> >>> >>> >>>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >>>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >>>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >>>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >>>>> the other forms of Cornish. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >>>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >>>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >>>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >>>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >>>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >>>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >>>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >>>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >>>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." >>>>> >>>>> >>>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and >>>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without >>>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to >>>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the >>>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the >>>> SWF. >>>> >>>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a >>>> phonemic distinction. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >>>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >>>>> bit - beat >>>>> bid - bead >>>>> his - he's >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in >>>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in >>>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >>>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >>>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >>>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >>>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Quite so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >>>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >>>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >>>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >>>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >>>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above >>>> relevant. >>>> >>>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: >>>> >>>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic >>>> lengthening >>>> >>>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic >>>> lengthening >>>> >>>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: >>>> >>>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering >>>> >>>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising >>>> >>>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use >>>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of >>>> Cornish phonemic quantity. >>>> >>>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will >>>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic >>>> transcription.) >>>> -- >>>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 15:59:42 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:59:42 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48610BDE.5010400@freenet.co.uk> Yes, when stressed as it is in these examples. Obviously, this would not apply to final -y in words such as . Craig Owen Cook wrote: > 2008/6/24 A. J. Trim : > >> The Late Cornish chei, kei, crei could be written chy, ky, cry. >> Final could be an umbrella graph for the <-i> & <-ei> of the current >> SWF, and the result looks more authentically based on Tudor spelling. >> > > Yes, I agree with this suggestion too. > > Actually, Jenner wrote y-circumflex in such items, and personally I > think this would be the best solution for our purposes as well. > (Michael, however, will raise font limitations as an objection. > Personally, I rarely use a font unless it has extensive Unicode > support, so this is irrelevant to me, but there's probably something > to it for the majority of Cornish users.) > > ~~Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 16:02:41 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:41 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <48610C91.7030303@freenet.co.uk> There have to be: in verbs such as and , the pronunciation (stressed) is "ee-uh" whereas in clappya, ponya, merkya, etc., it is "ya" (unstressed). Craig Jon Mills wrote: > Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? > Jon > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "A. J. Trim" >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 >> >> >> Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is >> short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) >> >> Regards, >> >> Andrew J. Trim >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Craig Weatherhill" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >> >> >>> The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have >>> where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there >>> to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, >>> royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? >>> >>> Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have >>> representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) >>> and representing the long. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> A. J. Trim wrote: >>> >>>> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. >>>> >>>> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Andrew J. Trim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Michael Everson" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM >>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >>>>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >>>>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >>>>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >>>>>> the other forms of Cornish. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >>>>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >>>>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >>>>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >>>>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >>>>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >>>>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >>>>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >>>>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >>>>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and >>>>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without >>>>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to >>>>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the >>>>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the >>>>> SWF. >>>>> >>>>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a >>>>> phonemic distinction. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >>>>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >>>>>> bit - beat >>>>>> bid - bead >>>>>> his - he's >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in >>>>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in >>>>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >>>>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >>>>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >>>>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >>>>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Quite so. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >>>>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >>>>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >>>>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >>>>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >>>>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above >>>>> relevant. >>>>> >>>>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: >>>>> >>>>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic >>>>> lengthening >>>>> >>>>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic >>>>> lengthening >>>>> >>>>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: >>>>> >>>>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering >>>>> >>>>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising >>>>> >>>>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use >>>>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of >>>>> Cornish phonemic quantity. >>>>> >>>>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will >>>>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic >>>>> transcription.) >>>>> -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> > > > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 15:57:38 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:57:38 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <48610BDE.5010400@freenet.co.uk> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> <48610BDE.5010400@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806240757g332db4d6tf8b97e4d668cda39@mail.gmail.com> And the circumflex would be useful for helping make that distinction clear. By the bye, is there any evidence for diphthongization in 'devry'? Gendall's unpublished dictionary mentions only /i:/. I would have expected diphthongization here. ~~Owen 2008/6/24 Craig Weatherhill : > Yes, when stressed as it is in these examples. Obviously, this would > not apply to final -y in words such as . > > Craig From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 16:04:43 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:04:43 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624150443.639C747808F@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Yes, I can see that these 2 diphthongs might be said to distinguish two distinct sets of verb endings. But what grounds are there for distinguishing them in word stems such as ryal/rial? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Craig Weatherhill" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:41 +0100 > > > There have to be: in verbs such as and , the > pronunciation (stressed) is "ee-uh" whereas in clappya, ponya, merkya, > etc., it is "ya" (unstressed). > > Craig > > > Jon Mills wrote: > > Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? > > Jon > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "A. J. Trim" > >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 > >> > >> > >> Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is > >> short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Andrew J. Trim > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Craig Weatherhill" > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM > >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > >> > >> > >>> The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have > >>> where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there > >>> to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, > >>> royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? > >>> > >>> Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have > >>> representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) > >>> and representing the long. > >>> > >>> Craig > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> A. J. Trim wrote: > >>> > >>>> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. > >>>> > >>>> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Andrew J. Trim > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>> From: "Michael Everson" > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM > >>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > >>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is > >>>>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most > >>>>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and > >>>>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than > >>>>>> the other forms of Cornish. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 > >>>>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith > >>>>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin > >>>>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high > >>>>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the > >>>>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too > >>>>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even > >>>>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than > >>>>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is > >>>>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and > >>>>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without > >>>>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to > >>>>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the > >>>>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the > >>>>> SWF. > >>>>> > >>>>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a > >>>>> phonemic distinction. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel > >>>>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: > >>>>>> bit - beat > >>>>>> bid - bead > >>>>>> his - he's > >>>>>> etc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in > >>>>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in > >>>>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 > >>>>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical > >>>>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable > >>>>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any > >>>>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Quite so. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to > >>>>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF > >>>>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long > >>>>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. > >>>>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners > >>>>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above > >>>>> relevant. > >>>>> > >>>>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: > >>>>> > >>>>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic > >>>>> lengthening > >>>>> > >>>>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic > >>>>> lengthening > >>>>> > >>>>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: > >>>>> > >>>>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering > >>>>> > >>>>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising > >>>>> > >>>>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use > >>>>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of > >>>>> Cornish phonemic quantity. > >>>>> > >>>>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will > >>>>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic > >>>>> transcription.) > >>>>> -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Spellyans mailing list > >>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Spellyans mailing list > >>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Spellyans mailing list > >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Spellyans mailing list > >> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________ > > Dr. Jon Mills, > > School of European Culture and Languages, > > University of Kent > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 16:16:42 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:16:42 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624151642.84041104F0@ws1-3.us4.outblaze.com> 'Devry' has fallen out of use by the Late period. Lhuyd gives "deffry" (AB 249a) but this is given as spelt in the Ordinalia and the Creation; it is not in his General Alphabet and so does not represent a pronunciation heard by Lhuyd. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Owen Cook" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:57:38 +0300 > > > And the circumflex would be useful for helping make that distinction clear. > > By the bye, is there any evidence for diphthongization in 'devry'? > Gendall's unpublished dictionary mentions only /i:/. I would have > expected diphthongization here. > > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/24 Craig Weatherhill : > > Yes, when stressed as it is in these examples. Obviously, this would > > not apply to final -y in words such as . > > > > Craig > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 16:36:34 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:36:34 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 14:42 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? Yes. Consider the near-minimal pair (KS 16 ??.5.8): Note the distinction between provia [pr@'vi:@] 'provide' and profya ['prOfj@] 'offer'. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 16:41:13 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:41:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624150443.639C747808F@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624150443.639C747808F@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 15:04 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >Yes, I can see that these 2 diphthongs might be said to distinguish >two distinct sets of verb endings. But what grounds are there for >distinguishing them in word stems such as ryal/rial? We spell because it is not [Os'tri:@], but ['Ostrja]. Some consistency is needed; we have it if we distinguish and . Nance writes with a long mark on the y. I read that as ['ri:@l] and would write it . -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 17:01:25 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:01:25 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624160126.536D1BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> In the 2 pronunciations [Os'tri:@] and ['Ostrja] the word stress is placed on different syllables. So we have [i:@] in a stressed syllable and [ja] in an unstressed syllable. Given that ryal/rial is monosyllabic, the diphthong would, according to this rule, be [i:@]. However that implies that the diphthongs [i:@] and [ja] are in complementary distribution. If that is the case, then we can write for both and say that is pronounced [i:@] when it is word stressed and [ja] when it is word unstressed. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:41:13 +0100 > > > At 15:04 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: > > > Yes, I can see that these 2 diphthongs might be said to > > distinguish two distinct sets of verb endings. But what grounds > > are there for distinguishing them in word stems such as ryal/rial? > > We spell because it is not [Os'tri:@], but ['Ostrja]. Some > consistency is needed; we have it if we distinguish and . > > Nance writes with a long mark on the y. I read that as > ['ri:@l] and would write it . > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 16:58:46 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:58:46 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 14:48 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >The variable (I:) was, if nothing else, a useful fiction at an earlier >stage of KS, when we wrote to indicate alternations between /i:/ >and /e:/ in words like 'deidh' and 'preis'. This compromise was >abandoned in the SWF, however, which allows users to choose between >'dydh' or 'dedh', 'prys' or 'pres'. I'd put it this way: original /I:/ from Old Cornish (and possibly the earliest Middle Cornish) ends up as either [i:] or [e:]; original /i:/ stays [i:] and original /e:/ stays [e:]. >So now there is a problem in the SWF for Middle Cornish, where >normally indicates the short vowel /I/, but, because of the rejection >of , is also pressed into service for the long vowel in 'dydh' and >'prys' (which is theoretically /I:/ for Kemmyn users, and in practice >/i:/ for revived Middle Cornish users generally). That's correct. Since an umbrella graph was rejected, we end up with a situation analogous to pre-occlusion/non-pre-occlusion: we have optional graphs. >The latest incarnation of KS uses to indicate this long y, >alternating with /e:/. Again (I:) here appears as a distinct variable. I don't think I follow you here. Revision 16 had only . When during negotiations it became clear that the KK camp could not accept , it was proposed that only be used as an umbrella graph for the bys/bes words. That did not last, however, and now is used for... well, it's a mess. ?3.5 of the SWF gives a table showing used for RMC [I(:)] and RTC/RLC [i:], [I], [e:], [E]. It says "The graph is used for a vowel that is realised as [I(:) i(:)] by speakers of RMC and as [E e:] by speakers of Revived Late and Tudor Cornish." This seems to say two things at the same time. In the chart RMC is [I(:)] and in the text it is [I(:) i(:)]. In the chart it gives the KK fiction, and in the text it gives that fiction plus standard UC and UCR practice. >But there's something really incoherent about >requiring the special character in 'dedh' >and 'pres', as the latest version of KS does. I don't believe so. :-) >Either we should allow alternation, by which and can coexist No. Here's why not. There are words with original /I:/ from Old Cornish (and possibly the earliest Middle Cornish) which end up as either [i:] or [e:]. These can be written ~, with the same kind of alternation we have in ~ and ~ (the user There are words with original /i:/ which stay [i:]; write these with . There are words with original /e:/ which stay [e:]; write these with . Remember... is always [re:z], never *[ri:z] >(and remember, here we need the accent on to show length) That's not correct. The consonant quality tells you that for the b?s/b?s words. This is where the SWF is really very problematic. It writes for [gwi:n] where the single as well as the shows the vowel to be long; it writes ~ for [gwIn] where the double ~ as well as the shows the vowel to be short. (So far so good.) Then it shows us ~ which by the SWF's rules would be [gwI:D]~{gwe:D]. (That is, if I can figure out the SWF's rules here. A vowel should be long before (?3.17 Rule 2.d). There is, however, no explicit mention of = [i:] and = [I] in monosyllables (and their derivatives), though the SWF's authors definitely made it clear to us that this was what they intended.) The accent on the tells you that this is a different letter from . The accent on the tells you that this is a different letter from . We're not just writing sounds here. We're also giving the reader information which will help him or her know what the intent of a writer is, since that writer may speak a different dialect of Revived Cornish. is [e:] when long. But some words with long [e:] may be have the alternate pronunciation [i:]; marking this indicates this unambiguously. >... or else we should use an umbrella graph to cover both alternants, for >example or . If were used as an >umbrella graph by everybody, well and good. But >I fail to see any point in having alternate >with . But here we have RMC and RLC preferences to account for. RMC users didn't want to write pre-occlusion; RLC users did. RMC users (we have asked) don't want to write where they say [e:]; RLC users don't want to write . Also we have the SWF, which says that people can write or for 'world'. The ambiguity is intolerable, since we also have [bIz] 'until' (never *[be:z] and [re:z] 'necessary' (never *[ri:z]). If there is no (and there is not) then the only advice I can give is to accept the SWF's ~ with the disambiguating diacritic as ~. >My own opinion is that for a SINGLE written >form, umbrella graphs should be preferred to >alternation wherever practical. Sure, but we lost on . >In that sense, (I:) has its uses and could still >be accommodated. I argued for last summer, >and my feelings have not changed. True, has >been >shanghaied into use for the diphthong in 'kei', >'chei', 'crei', but this is found in a different >environment (open syllables only) and we shall >no doubt have reason to discuss whether it is >necessary or useful for such words in the first >place. We could adopt , but that would introduce a pretty massive systemic difference between KS and the SWF. I don't think that is wise. The diaeresis is not really very obtrusive, however, and diacritiphobes can omit them if they must. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Tue Jun 24 17:06:56 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:06:56 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080624160656.CA5EE32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Provia [pr@'vi:@] 'provide' and profya ['prOfj@] 'offer' are another good example of complementary distribution. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:36:34 +0100 > > > At 14:42 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: > > > Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? > > Yes. Consider the near-minimal pair (KS 16 ??.5.8): > > Note the distinction between provia [pr@'vi:@] 'provide' and profya > ['prOfj@] 'offer'. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From asterby at tiscali.co.uk Tue Jun 24 16:58:11 2008 From: asterby at tiscali.co.uk (Peter & Rael) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:58:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Spellyans subscription notification Message-ID: We moved to Cornwall when we retired. I am Welsh (a native speaker) and Peter is Cornish. He won, although I was not at all unhappy about coming to Cornwall. We both got stuck into learning Cornish (UC/UCR) and like KS. We've both just taken Grade 3 exams (as organised by the dear old Kesva - soon to be overtaken by the Language Ladder, I trust) and hopefully will move on to the equivalent of Grade 4 next year. We have been very fortunate in having excellent teachers. I don't understand much of the stuff on linguistics but thoroughly enjoy reading the posts. My main (professional) interest is in the introduction of Cornish in schools, particularly in the Foundation and KS1 years. Rael Harvey. From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 17:28:57 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:28:57 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624160656.CA5EE32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624160656.CA5EE32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806240928k26ee0171nd81d531e17bb1f4c@mail.gmail.com> Yes, but we don't mark stress. Kernowek Dasunys did, but neither KS nor the SWF do. ~~Owen 2008/6/24 Jon Mills : > Provia [pr@'vi:@] 'provide' and profya ['prOfj@] 'offer' are another good example of > complementary distribution. > Jon From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 17:32:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:32:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624160126.536D1BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624160126.536D1BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 16:01 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >In the 2 pronunciations [Os'tri:@] and ['Ostrja] the word stress is >placed on different syllables. Yes, and spelling them differently enables the learner to predict the stress. is always stressed. is always unstressed. >So we have [i:@] in a stressed syllable and [ja] in an unstressed >syllable. Given that ryal/rial is monosyllabic, the diphthong would, >according to this rule, be [i:@]. However that implies that the >diphthongs [i:@] and [ja] are in complementary distribution. Possibly, though I wouldn't jump to conclusions. >If that is the case, then we can write for both and say that > is pronounced [i:@] when it is word stressed and [ja] when it >is word unstressed. You're not suggesting doing away with are you? We could do what you suggest (if you proved that they really were in complementary distribution) but I don't think it would be helpful to learners or writers. The SWF is using this same distinction: it writes bian, lien, lies have [i:@] as described in KS16 1.5.8; also in the Conditional (Pluperfect) of bos. >Provia [pr@'vi:@] 'provide' and profya ['prOfj@] 'offer' are another >good example of complementary distribution. Yes, but distinguishing and enables the learner to know how to pronounce these words. I wouldn't recommend provya/profya or provia/profia as these are ambiguous. i/y allows us to make this useful distinction -- why not? -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 17:33:50 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:33:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240928k26ee0171nd81d531e17bb1f4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080624160656.CA5EE32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240928k26ee0171nd81d531e17bb1f4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 19:28 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >Yes, but we don't mark stress. Kernowek Dasunys did, but neither KS >nor the SWF do. KS marks stress in distinguishing and , even if not elsewhere. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 17:38:31 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:38:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system Message-ID: 2008/6/24 Michael Everson : >> (and remember, here we need the accent on to show length) > > That's not correct. Yes it is. We have 'jyn' in KS, don't we? Although you may be right, that got shot down in the SWF, which has 'jynn' for everybody. > We could adopt , but that would introduce a pretty massive systemic > difference between KS and the SWF. I don't think that is wise. The diaeresis > is not really very obtrusive, however, and diacritiphobes can omit them if > they must. The diaeresis looks terrible. This is a really big set of words, so why do we need to have mounds of diaereses which indicate neither a vowel on hiatus (as in Welsh, inter alia) nor umlaut (as in German, inter alia) nor a centre unrounded vowel (as in Luxembourgish or Albanian) nor any other value for a diaeresis that I've ever come across. I'm a diacriticophile, but I've never liked this use of the diaeresis. The acute accent would make me much, much happier. ~~Owen From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 18:05:42 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:05:42 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624150443.639C747808F@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624150443.639C747808F@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <48612966.2060608@freenet.co.uk> Ah, I think I see what you mean. In the sound is simply "ee-uh", with no variations. I was simply querying the SWF spelling of when, if is to represent the long vowel, this appears inconsistent. It would avoid a sound similar to Eng. "real" (an E sound of rather short duration in normal speech, when it is of longer duration and closer to "ree-ul" - more like "real" when heavily emphasised: "there's a REAL difference", rather than "it's as real as you are". Try both statements and you'll appreciate the difference in duration of the E in the same word. Admittedly, there's not a massive difference between the two sounds but it is there. Craig Jon Mills wrote: > Yes, I can see that these 2 diphthongs might be said to distinguish two distinct sets of verb endings. But what grounds are there for distinguishing them in word stems such as ryal/rial? > Jon > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Craig Weatherhill" >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:41 +0100 >> >> >> There have to be: in verbs such as and , the >> pronunciation (stressed) is "ee-uh" whereas in clappya, ponya, merkya, >> etc., it is "ya" (unstressed). >> >> Craig >> >> >> Jon Mills wrote: >> >>> Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "A. J. Trim" >>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >>>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is >>>> short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Andrew J. Trim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Craig Weatherhill" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM >>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have >>>>> where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there >>>>> to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, >>>>> royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? >>>>> >>>>> Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have >>>>> representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) >>>>> and representing the long. >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A. J. Trim wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Andrew J. Trim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Michael Everson" >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM >>>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is >>>>>>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most >>>>>>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and >>>>>>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than >>>>>>>> the other forms of Cornish. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 >>>>>>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith >>>>>>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin >>>>>>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high >>>>>>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the >>>>>>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too >>>>>>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even >>>>>>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than >>>>>>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is >>>>>>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and >>>>>>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without >>>>>>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to >>>>>>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the >>>>>>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the >>>>>>> SWF. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a >>>>>>> phonemic distinction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel >>>>>>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: >>>>>>>> bit - beat >>>>>>>> bid - bead >>>>>>>> his - he's >>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in >>>>>>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in >>>>>>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 >>>>>>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical >>>>>>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable >>>>>>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any >>>>>>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quite so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to >>>>>>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF >>>>>>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long >>>>>>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. >>>>>>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners >>>>>>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above >>>>>>> relevant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic >>>>>>> lengthening >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic >>>>>>> lengthening >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use >>>>>>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of >>>>>>> Cornish phonemic quantity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will >>>>>>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic >>>>>>> transcription.) >>>>>>> -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____________________________________ >>> Dr. Jon Mills, >>> School of European Culture and Languages, >>> University of Kent >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> > > > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 18:16:34 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:16:34 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: For what it is worth, my preference would be for rather than or . Traditional Tudor Cornish did not use the dieresis, so it would not be authentic. However, we are in the modern world. I could live with with as an optional replacement graph for people who cannot or don't want to write diacritical marks. This would be similar to / in German. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:58 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > At 14:48 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: > >>The variable (I:) was, if nothing else, a useful fiction at an earlier >>stage of KS, when we wrote to indicate alternations between /i:/ >>and /e:/ in words like 'deidh' and 'preis'. This compromise was >>abandoned in the SWF, however, which allows users to choose between >>'dydh' or 'dedh', 'prys' or 'pres'. > > I'd put it this way: original /I:/ from Old > Cornish (and possibly the earliest Middle > Cornish) ends up as either [i:] or [e:]; original > /i:/ stays [i:] and original /e:/ stays [e:]. > >>So now there is a problem in the SWF for Middle Cornish, where >>normally indicates the short vowel /I/, but, because of the rejection >>of , is also pressed into service for the long vowel in 'dydh' and >>'prys' (which is theoretically /I:/ for Kemmyn users, and in practice >>/i:/ for revived Middle Cornish users generally). > > That's correct. Since an umbrella graph was > rejected, we end up with a situation analogous to > pre-occlusion/non-pre-occlusion: we have optional > graphs. > >>The latest incarnation of KS uses to indicate this long y, >>alternating with /e:/. Again (I:) here appears as a distinct variable. > > I don't think I follow you here. Revision 16 had > only . When during negotiations it became > clear that the KK camp could not accept , it > was proposed that only be used as an umbrella > graph for the bys/bes words. That did not last, > however, and now is used for... well, it's a > mess. > > ?3.5 of the SWF gives a table showing used > for RMC [I(:)] and RTC/RLC [i:], [I], [e:], [E]. > It says "The graph is used for a vowel that > is realised as [I(:) i(:)] by speakers of RMC and > as [E e:] by speakers of Revived Late and Tudor > Cornish." > > This seems to say two things at the same time. In > the chart RMC is [I(:)] and in the text it is > [I(:) i(:)]. In the chart it gives the KK > fiction, and in the text it gives that fiction > plus standard UC and UCR practice. > >>But there's something really incoherent about >>requiring the special character in 'dedh' >>and 'pres', as the latest version of KS does. > > I don't believe so. :-) > >>Either we should allow alternation, by which and can coexist > > No. Here's why not. > > There are words with original /I:/ from Old > Cornish (and possibly the earliest Middle > Cornish) which end up as either [i:] or [e:]. > These can be written ~, with the same kind > of alternation we have in ~ and ~ > (the user > > There are words with original /i:/ which stay [i:]; write these with . > > There are words with original /e:/ which stay > [e:]; write these with . Remember... is > always [re:z], never *[ri:z] > >>(and remember, here we need the accent on to show length) > > That's not correct. The consonant quality tells > you that for the b?s/b?s words. This is where the > SWF is really very problematic. It writes > for [gwi:n] where the single as well as the > shows the vowel to be long; it writes > ~ for [gwIn] where the double > ~ as well as the shows the vowel to > be short. (So far so good.) Then it shows us > ~ which by the SWF's rules would be > [gwI:D]~{gwe:D]. > > (That is, if I can figure out the SWF's rules > here. A vowel should be long before (?3.17 > Rule 2.d). There is, however, no explicit mention > of = [i:] and = [I] in monosyllables (and > their derivatives), though the SWF's authors > definitely made it clear to us that this was what > they intended.) > > The accent on the tells you that this is a > different letter from . The accent on the > tells you that this is a different letter from > . > > We're not just writing sounds here. We're also > giving the reader information which will help him > or her know what the intent of a writer is, since > that writer may speak a different dialect of > Revived Cornish. is [e:] when long. But some > words with long [e:] may be have the alternate > pronunciation [i:]; marking this indicates > this unambiguously. > >>... or else we should use an umbrella graph to cover both alternants, for >>example or . If were used as an >>umbrella graph by everybody, well and good. But >>I fail to see any point in having alternate >>with . > > But here we have RMC and RLC preferences to > account for. RMC users didn't want to write > pre-occlusion; RLC users did. RMC users (we have > asked) don't want to write where they say > [e:]; RLC users don't want to write . > > Also we have the SWF, which says that people can > write or for 'world'. The ambiguity > is intolerable, since we also have [bIz] > 'until' (never *[be:z] and [re:z] > 'necessary' (never *[ri:z]). If there is no > (and there is not) then the only advice I > can give is to accept the SWF's ~ with > the disambiguating diacritic as ~. > >>My own opinion is that for a SINGLE written >>form, umbrella graphs should be preferred to >>alternation wherever practical. > > Sure, but we lost on . > >>In that sense, (I:) has its uses and could still >>be accommodated. I argued for last summer, >>and my feelings have not changed. True, has >>been >>shanghaied into use for the diphthong in 'kei', >>'chei', 'crei', but this is found in a different >>environment (open syllables only) and we shall >>no doubt have reason to discuss whether it is >>necessary or useful for such words in the first >>place. > > We could adopt , but that would introduce a > pretty massive systemic difference between KS and > the SWF. I don't think that is wise. The > diaeresis is not really very obtrusive, however, > and diacritiphobes can omit them if they must. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 18:22:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:22:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 19:26 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >2008/6/24 Michael Everson : > >> (and remember, here we need the accent on to show length) > > > > That's not correct. > >Yes it is. We have 'jyn' in KS, don't we? My mistake. >Although you may be right, that got shot down in the SWF, which has >'jynn' for everybody. Not for us ;-) That's one of the errors of the SWF. > > We could adopt , but that would introduce a pretty massive systemic >> difference between KS and the SWF. I don't think that is wise. The diaeresis >> is not really very obtrusive, however, and diacritiphobes can omit them if >> they must. > >The diaeresis looks terrible. This is a really >big set of words, so why do we need to have >mounds of diaereses which indicate neither a >vowel on hiatus (as in Welsh, inter alia) nor >umlaut (as in German, inter alia) nor a centre >unrounded vowel (as in Luxembourgish or >Albanian) nor any other value for a diaeresis >that I've ever come across. Actually, I think I've caught you here. ;-) Consider German and its dialects. is (in practice if not in theory) an umbrella graph for /?/~/e/ (sch?n [S?:n]~[Se:n]) and is an umbrella graph for /y/~/i/ (gr?n /gry:n]~[gri:n]). So what we propose here is that and are both umbrella graphs for [i:]~[e:]. >I'm a diacriticophile, but I've never liked this >use of the diaeresis. The acute accent would >make me much, much happier. In my judgement the acute accent would be interpreted as a stress mark by most readers. And I think the two little dots are really not very obtrusive. But the choice here is one of character set and many many many fonts: While Windows has both y-acute and y-diaeresis, the classic Mac OS has only y-diaeresis. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 18:30:30 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:30:30 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 18:16 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >For what it is worth, my preference would be for rather than or >. We in UdnFormScrefys liked it too, but it was rejected very very vehemently by the KK members of the AHG. In fact we very nearly didn't win the "right" to write alongside . >Traditional Tudor Cornish did not use the dieresis, so it would not be >authentic. I'm afraid we can't afford to have our hands tied there. The SWF writes and . The only way out of this problem is to mark them in some way. The diaeresis is available and convenient. Lhuyd did use a single dot above y and a single dot below u. So... dots are not unknown to Cornish! :-) >However, we are in the modern world. >I could live with with as an optional replacement graph for people >who cannot or don't want to write diacritical marks. >This would be similar to / in German. But it would lead to dydh/dedh/deidh as spellings for this word. I don't think we can get away with this! -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 18:44:18 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:44:18 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Please see a sample text with and at http://www.kernowek.net/jane-austen_KS17.pdf I've called this KS17, though there are other things which should figure that aren't yet implemented, like the distribution of and in monosyllables and their derivatives. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:18:03 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:18:03 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806241118t646137b2p740c18ae9f145b29@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/24 Michael Everson : > At 18:16 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >>However, we are in the modern world. >>I could live with with as an optional replacement graph for people >>who cannot or don't want to write diacritical marks. >>This would be similar to / in German. > > But it would lead to dydh/dedh/deidh as spellings > for this word. I don't think we can get away with > this! No, it would lead to only d?dh/deidh, the way Andrew proposes it. ~~Owen From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 24 18:00:08 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:00:08 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7327F5AA-A8EC-4168-A97A-82E5BD4CA25B@yahoo.co.uk> Of all the accented letters, is perhaps the most problematic for some computer fonts/keyboards. If I'm right in thinking that there would only ever be one single accent to go on a , then maybe the rule should read: > "For this phoneme, the recommended combining diacritic on is > the circumflex, as used by Lhuyd. However, if your keyboard or > chosen font lacks this particular option, the following are > acceptable: > -- with combining umlaut/diaeresis > -- with combining grave, acute or macron accent > -- as a last resort (for the likes of emails or bulletin boards), > followed by the non-combining < ^ > or < \ > characters." Eddie On 24 Jun 2008, at 14:59, Owen Cook wrote: > 2008/6/24 A. J. Trim : >> The Late Cornish chei, kei, crei could be written chy, ky, cry. >> Final could be an umbrella graph for the <-i> & <-ei> of the >> current >> SWF, and the result looks more authentically based on Tudor spelling. > > Yes, I agree with this suggestion too. > > Actually, Jenner wrote y-circumflex in such items, and personally I > think this would be the best solution for our purposes as well. > (Michael, however, will raise font limitations as an objection. > Personally, I rarely use a font unless it has extensive Unicode > support, so this is irrelevant to me, but there's probably something > to it for the majority of Cornish users.) > From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 19:25:40 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:25:40 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806241118t646137b2p740c18ae9f145b29@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241118t646137b2p740c18ae9f145b29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:18 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >2008/6/24 Michael Everson : >> At 18:16 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >>>However, we are in the modern world. >>>I could live with with as an optional replacement graph for people >>>who cannot or don't want to write diacritical marks. >>>This would be similar to / in German. >> >> But it would lead to dydh/dedh/deidh as spellings >> for this word. I don't think we can get away with >> this! > >No, it would lead to only d?dh/deidh, the way Andrew proposes it. Ah. Well, is, I believe, beyond our grasp. It was fiercely rejected by the KK contingent, and since d?dh/d?dh is a fairly unobtrusive way of handling the ambiguity in the SWF's dedh/dydh, I think we should compromise here, and not try to go further. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:32:59 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:32:59 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/24 Michael Everson rug scrifa: > Actually, I think I've caught you here. ;-) > Consider German and its dialects. is (in > practice if not in theory) an umbrella graph for > /?/~/e/ (sch?n [S?:n]~[Se:n]) and is an > umbrella graph for /y/~/i/ (gr?n > /gry:n]~[gri:n]). So what we propose here is that > and are both umbrella graphs for > [i:]~[e:]. It's a clever trick, but I'm not taken in! ;-) The real reason for the diaeresis is simply that we don't want to discrimate against Mac users. While a noble goal in itself, this is not worth the vexation of using the wrong diacritic when a better alternative exists. The words we're talking about all have or in a stressed syllable anyway -- no problem there, were we to use the acute. Furthermore, anybody with exposure to Irish will know the acute as a length marker already. is familiar to most of us from French as a higher variety of (potentially convenient for those who want to continue the fiction of 'aspirational' /I:/), and was used this way in Breton (in the Orthographie universitaire). Long, stressed, alternating with a higher variant -- our d?dh and pr?s words are all of these things. On hiatus, umlaut, centralized -- d?dh and pr?s are none of these. And if a diaeresis is arguably unobtrusive, an acute is certainly more so by virtue of being more simply formed. Cheers, ~~Owen > In my judgement the acute accent would be > interpreted as a stress mark by most readers. And > I think the two little dots are really not very > obtrusive. But the choice here is one of > character set and many many many fonts: While > Windows has both y-acute and y-diaeresis, the > classic Mac OS has only y-diaeresis. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:36:27 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:36:27 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <7327F5AA-A8EC-4168-A97A-82E5BD4CA25B@yahoo.co.uk> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> <7327F5AA-A8EC-4168-A97A-82E5BD4CA25B@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806241136j57819d7do3ec79efd3ff27e02@mail.gmail.com> Good, I like it -- we can use as a stand-in for y-circumflex for those who find themselves without a y-circumflex-supporting font. Perfect. All the more reason not to use in words like dedh and pres! ;-) ~~Owen 2008/6/24 Eddie Climo : > Of all the accented letters, is perhaps the most problematic > for some computer fonts/keyboards. If I'm right in thinking that > there would only ever be one single accent to go on a , then > maybe the rule should read: > >> "For this phoneme, the recommended combining diacritic on is >> the circumflex, as used by Lhuyd. However, if your keyboard or >> chosen font lacks this particular option, the following are >> acceptable: >> -- with combining umlaut/diaeresis >> -- with combining grave, acute or macron accent >> -- as a last resort (for the likes of emails or bulletin boards), >> followed by the non-combining < ^ > or < \ > characters." > > > Eddie From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 19:37:16 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:37:16 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <7327F5AA-A8EC-4168-A97A-82E5BD4CA25B@yahoo.co.uk> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> <7327F5AA-A8EC-4168-A97A-82E5BD4CA25B@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 18:00 +0100 2008-06-24, Eddie Climo wrote: > > "For this phoneme, the recommended combining diacritic on is >> the circumflex, as used by Lhuyd. However, if your keyboard or >> chosen font lacks this particular option, the following are >> acceptable: >> -- with combining umlaut/diaeresis >> -- with combining grave, acute or macron accent >> -- as a last resort (for the likes of emails or bulletin boards), >> followed by the non-combining < ^ > or < \ > characters." That is *far* too much variety, never mind the font problems! :-) -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 19:53:23 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:53:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806241136j57819d7do3ec79efd3ff27e02@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> <7327F5AA-A8EC-4168-A97A-82E5BD4CA25B@yahoo.co.uk> <6e5d3b9f0806241136j57819d7do3ec79efd3ff27e02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:36 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >Good, I like it -- we can use as a stand-in for y-circumflex for >those who find themselves without a y-circumflex-supporting font. >Perfect. All the more reason not to use in words like dedh and >pres! ;-) I see the smiley but the problem here is simply how to deal with the SWF's ambiguous dydh/dedh. We won't succeed with deidh, beautiful as it is. That means marking the vowels, and there, there is only one technical choice that will not backfire on us. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 20:09:53 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:09:53 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Names of diacritics in Cornish Message-ID: Just for the record: ? -- e hat stubm ? -- e hat dewboynt ? -- e to bian -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 20:43:05 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:43:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:32 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >2008/6/24 Michael Everson rug scrifa: >> Actually, I think I've caught you here. ;-) >> Consider German and its dialects. is (in >> practice if not in theory) an umbrella graph for >> /?/~/e/ (sch?n [S?:n]~[Se:n]) and is an >> umbrella graph for /y/~/i/ (gr?n >> /gry:n]~[gri:n]). So what we propose here is that >> and are both umbrella graphs for >> [i:]~[e:]. > >It's a clever trick, but I'm not taken in! ;-) It's not a trick. It's true. >The real reason for the diaeresis is simply that >we don't want to discrimate against Mac users. Like it or not, fonts are tools. If an orthography users cannot type or fonts do not support, then you're sunk. >While a noble goal in itself, this is not worth >the vexation of using the wrong diacritic when a >better alternative exists. There is nothing "wrong" with the diaeresis. >The words we're talking about all have or > in a stressed syllable anyway -- no problem >there, were we to use the acute. The acute is not generally available on the letter y in fonts, and even when found in a font on a Macintosh, the British Mac Roman keyboard (default at install) doesn't support it in input. The answer has got to be NO. This one is a non-starter. I cannot agree to hobbling the Cornish language with y-acute, y-grave, or y-circumflex. Choosing ANY of those is GUARANTEED to lead to failure for us. It is going to be hellish enough for us when they see accents used in our publications. Having them be UNAVAILABLE accents, world of Unicode or not, cannot do us any good. And they will tell us how great Kernowek Kebmyn is without any diacritics at all. >Furthermore, anybody with exposure to Irish will >know the acute as a length marker already. More Cornish learn Spanish or French I suspect. Both of which use diaeresis (Spanish on ?, French on ? (!). Welsh uses ? as well, interestingly. > is familiar to most of us from French as a >higher variety of (potentially convenient >for those who want to continue the fiction of >'aspirational' /I:/), and was used this way in >Breton (in the Orthographie universitaire). >Long, stressed, alternating with a higher >variant -- our d?dh and pr?s words are all of >these things. On hiatus, umlaut, centralized -- >d?dh and pr?s are none of these. No, they aren't any of those. But the accent we need to use isn't *marking* length or stress or a higher variant (because it's meant to be used on the y as well). This use of diaeresis is that of an umbrella graph for *dialect preference*. I have already demonstrated that this usage is found in German as ? and ?, in practice, when you take dialect into account. Exactly as in Cornish! Both vowels have to be marked -- with the same diacritic (there is no other choice in terms of sane orthography design) -- and only one diacritic is really available. Whether that availability is "fair" or not is irrelevant. That's what the world gives us. And I don't think there's any argument that a diaeresis "must" mean one thing or another. When I read Spanish, I know that the g?e means /gwe/ not /ge/. When I read Quenya, I know that it is pretty much decorative, meaning "I am not silent!". When I read Albanian, I know that it's a schwa. When I read Russian, I know that ? means [jo]. Lhuyd uses a single dot over y (for a different purpose) >And if a diaeresis is arguably unobtrusive, an acute is certainly more so by >virtue of being more simply formed. Owen, lots and lots of people really disliked when it was first mooted. We got used to it, and came to like it. (The KK users never gave it a chance -- likely because they wanted the SWF to be as similar to KK as possible.) We can't have it. We've got to have something else, and that has to be *practical*. I ask you earnestly to open your heart to the dewboynt. Else we are surely going to be stuck. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 20:47:37 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:47:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624160126.536D1BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080624160126.536D1BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: I pronounce Austria as ['OstrI@]. Chambers English Dictionary gives a longer [O:] sound. The Cornish spelling should be Ostrya or Estrya. The aust is latinised German ?st "east". Verbs like redya "to read" need the to start some of the verbal endings, so I would not want to spell it redia. For example, i a redyons "they read" / "they shall read"; redyes/redys (past particple). Verbs like fia "to flee" has i a fions; fiyes. There is a difference and so I would not recommend using in all positions. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jon Mills" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 5:01 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > In the 2 pronunciations [Os'tri:@] and ['Ostrja] the word stress is placed > on different syllables. So we have [i:@] in a stressed syllable and [ja] > in an unstressed syllable. Given that ryal/rial is monosyllabic, the > diphthong would, according to this rule, be [i:@]. However that implies > that the diphthongs [i:@] and [ja] are in complementary distribution. If > that is the case, then we can write for both and say that is > pronounced [i:@] when it is word stressed and [ja] when it is word > unstressed. > Jon > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Everson" >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:41:13 +0100 >> >> >> At 15:04 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: >> >> > Yes, I can see that these 2 diphthongs might be said to >> > distinguish two distinct sets of verb endings. But what grounds >> > are there for distinguishing them in word stems such as ryal/rial? >> >> We spell because it is not [Os'tri:@], but ['Ostrja]. Some >> consistency is needed; we have it if we distinguish and . >> >> Nance writes with a long mark on the y. I read that as >> ['ri:@l] and would write it . >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:15:04 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:15:04 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> "Royal" is rial in the SWF Nicholas ------------ >>>> From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:17:52 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:17:52 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <48610C91.7030303@freenet.co.uk> References: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> <48610C91.7030303@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <58B8E421-BA41-41FC-AE3E-8E428FF82326@gmail.com> Cf gwelyow 'fields' ['gweljow] but gweliow [gwe'li:ow] 'beds' in both SWF and KS. Nicholas On 24 Jun 2008, at 16:02, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > There have to be: in verbs such as and , the > pronunciation (stressed) is "ee-uh" whereas in clappya, ponya, merkya, > etc., it is "ya" (unstressed). > > Craig > >>>>>>> From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 21:26:42 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:26:42 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] dydh, dedh, deidh Message-ID: "But it would lead to dydh/dedh/deidh as spellings for this word. I don't think we can get away with this! -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com" No, I was suggesting that the options should be d?dh or deidh. The vowel would be an umbrella graph. dydh would not be allowed as well. Those who like to use diacritical marks would pick d?dh. Those who do not or cannot would choose deidh. Germans choose between and or and . Most seem to choose the umlaut. Many Cornish users will prefer not to type diacritcal marks. However, I would expect most professionally printed material to be marked. I am suggesting that where diacritical marks are used, there should if possible be an alternative. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:07:18 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:07:18 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> I can find no examples of . occurs in moghheys 'increased' and yaghheys 'healed'. on the other hand is quite well attested in such forms as gottha past subj. of coth 'ought' and perfettha, the comparative of perfeth 'perfect'. Nicholas On 24 Jun 2008, at 11:34, A. J. Trim wrote: > I would rather not include the graphs ggh and tth, even if the long > sounds could be shown to exist. Do they exist in the Traditional > Texts? I have not noticed any. > I am not sure that you can have long stops, only double ones. > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:23:12 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:23:12 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B75B3F6-0D88-4FE2-8001-51EF80D31CD8@gmail.com> Gwyryoneth KS now writes on the basis of gwir. Nicholas ------------ On 24 Jun 2008, at 18:44, Michael Everson wrote: > Please see a sample text with and at > http://www.kernowek.net/jane-austen_KS17.pdf > > I've called this KS17, though there are other > things which should figure that aren't yet > implemented, like the distribution of and > in monosyllables and their derivatives. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 22:01:42 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:01:42 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <1B75B3F6-0D88-4FE2-8001-51EF80D31CD8@gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <1B75B3F6-0D88-4FE2-8001-51EF80D31CD8@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:23 +0100 2008-06-24, nicholas williams wrote: >Gwyryoneth KS now writes on the basis of gwir. Yes, for instance. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 24 22:28:45 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:28:45 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> I think Dan has in his Gerlyver, unless that has been updated in the latest version. I've only just downloaded that, so haven't had time to look. I'll do so. Craig nicholas williams wrote: > "Royal" is rial in the SWF > > Nicholas > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 22:33:44 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:33:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have looked at your sample text, as requested. I really don't like this use of the dieresis. I think that it makes the text look unauthentic. It's not really "unobtrusive". If it were it just wouldn't work. However, if we must have the dieresis in our orthography, I have the following comments: 1) It is easy to remember that is [i:]. It is less easy to remember that is [e:]. 2) It is easy to remember that is [e:]. It is easy for English speakers to remember that is [i:]. 3) I would maintain as an alternative for those who cannot or do not want to use diacritical marks. 4) is closer to than it is to , so I would favour . 5) could be used, instead of , if the is politically unacceptable. This would give veadh, beas, deadh, preas ... just a thought. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:44 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > Please see a sample text with and at > http://www.kernowek.net/jane-austen_KS17.pdf > > I've called this KS17, though there are other > things which should figure that aren't yet > implemented, like the distribution of and > in monosyllables and their derivatives. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 22:36:56 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:36:56 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: At 22:28 +0100 2008-06-24, Craig Weatherhill wrote: >I think Dan has in his Gerlyver, unless that has been updated in >the latest version. He has now. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Tue Jun 24 22:43:31 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:43:31 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806242143.m5OLhiRr007903@onewbx1p.one.at> From: Michael Everson Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:43 PM "I ask you earnestly to open your heart to the dewboynt. Else we are surely going to be stuck." I very much sympathise with Owen. For me, e/y + dewboynt is as easy or difficult to write as e/y + circumflex. There is no difference. The circumflex, tome, is more logical, as it suggests a long vowel, whereas a diaeresis in my association could suggest a long or short vowel. And. uh. why are we talking about this? The alternation of ~ in the SWF is OK and it is also authentic in that it occurred in traditional Cornish. This is not an error in the SWF in my opinion. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Tue Jun 24 22:43:31 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:43:31 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806242143.m5OLhiRs007903@onewbx1p.one.at> Good idea! Dan -----Original Message----- From: A. J. Trim Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:17 PM {...} "I could live with with as an optional replacement graph for people who cannot or don't want to write diacritical marks. This would be similar to / in German. Regards, Andrew J. Trim" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Tue Jun 24 22:43:31 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:43:31 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240757g332db4d6tf8b97e4d668cda39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806242143.m5OLhiRt007903@onewbx1p.one.at> -----Original Message----- From: Owen Cook Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:58 PM {.} "By the bye, is there any evidence for diphthongization in 'devry'? Gendall's unpublished dictionary mentions only /i:/. I would have expected diphthongization here. ~~Owen" I did, too. But I've also looked at the rhymes in the texts and none of the examples of , seem to rhyme with final stressed /i:/. There is also the much more frequently occurring spelling which makes me think that this word may have had initial stress */"tefri/ or */"tevri/. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Tue Jun 24 22:43:31 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:43:31 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080624144245.C93E4478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <200806242143.m5OLhiRu007903@onewbx1p.one.at> Jon, Neither are true diphthongs in the sense that they occur within one syllable, it?s two vowels with hiatus. Even if there was a sequence [?I.a] in opposition to [?i:.a] at one time, I believe they fell in with each other. That also goes for words that originally had /?Ixa/ which also became [?i:.@] as in . Dan -----Original Message----- From: Jon Mills Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:43 PM Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. J. Trim" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 > > > Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is > short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Craig Weatherhill" > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > > > The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have > > where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there > > to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, > > royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? > > > > Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have > > representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) > > and representing the long. > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > A. J. Trim wrote: > >> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. > >> > >> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Andrew J. Trim > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Michael Everson" > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM > >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > >> > >> > >>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: > >>> > >>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is > >>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most > >>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and > >>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than > >>>> the other forms of Cornish. > >>>> > >>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) > >>> > >>> > >>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 > >>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith > >>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin > >>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high > >>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the > >>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too > >>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even > >>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than > >>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is > >>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > >>>> > >>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and > >>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without > >>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to > >>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the > >>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the > >>> SWF. > >>> > >>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a > >>> phonemic distinction. > >>> > >>> > >>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel > >>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: > >>>> bit - beat > >>>> bid - bead > >>>> his - he's > >>>> etc. > >>>> > >>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in > >>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in > >>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. > >>> > >>> > >>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 > >>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical > >>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable > >>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any > >>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. > >>>> > >>> Quite so. > >>> > >>> > >>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to > >>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF > >>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long > >>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. > >>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners > >>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > >>>> > >>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above > >>> relevant. > >>> > >>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: > >>> > >>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic > >>> lengthening > >>> > >>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic > >>> lengthening > >>> > >>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: > >>> > >>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering > >>> > >>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising > >>> > >>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use > >>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of > >>> Cornish phonemic quantity. > >>> > >>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will > >>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic > >>> transcription.) > >>> -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Spellyans mailing list > >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Spellyans mailing list > >> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Tue Jun 24 22:43:31 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:43:31 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806242143.m5OLhiRv007903@onewbx1p.one.at> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Everson Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:52 PM In my SWF dictionary I have . Dan At 14:43 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is >short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) "In KS, is [i:@] and is [j?] or [j@] depending on stress. As far as I know that should obtain in the SWF as well. Michael Everson" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 22:53:52 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:53:52 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: He has rial. I have just looked Nicholas On 24 Jun 2008, at 22:28, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > I think Dan has in his Gerlyver, unless that has been updated > in > the latest version. I've only just downloaded that, so haven't had > time > to look. I'll do so. > > Craig > > nicholas williams wrote: >> "Royal" is rial in the SWF >> >> Nicholas >> ------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From ajtrim at msn.com Tue Jun 24 22:55:51 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:55:51 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I would prefer to use an acute accent, rather than using a dieresis, providing the acute accent is not going to be used for something else. I use a Windows PC, and all I have to do is to press the AltGr button whilst typing my vowel. This works for easily. I have made it work for (by re-mapping my keyboard using the freely available Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator) but some people would have difficulty with this. Some fonts don't work but most do. Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to a Mac or Linux machine, so I cannot try on those. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Owen Cook" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 7:32 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > 2008/6/24 Michael Everson rug scrifa: >> Actually, I think I've caught you here. ;-) >> Consider German and its dialects. is (in >> practice if not in theory) an umbrella graph for >> /?/~/e/ (sch?n [S?:n]~[Se:n]) and is an >> umbrella graph for /y/~/i/ (gr?n >> /gry:n]~[gri:n]). So what we propose here is that >> and are both umbrella graphs for >> [i:]~[e:]. > > It's a clever trick, but I'm not taken in! ;-) The real reason for the > diaeresis is simply that we don't want to discrimate against Mac > users. While a noble goal in itself, this is not worth the vexation of > using the wrong diacritic when a better alternative exists. The words > we're talking about all have or in a stressed syllable anyway > -- no problem there, were we to use the acute. Furthermore, anybody > with exposure to Irish will know the acute as a length marker already. > is familiar to most of us from French as a higher variety of > (potentially convenient for those who want to continue the fiction of > 'aspirational' /I:/), and was used this way in Breton (in the > Orthographie universitaire). Long, stressed, alternating with a higher > variant -- our d?dh and pr?s words are all of these things. On hiatus, > umlaut, centralized -- d?dh and pr?s are none of these. And if a > diaeresis is arguably unobtrusive, an acute is certainly more so by > virtue of being more simply formed. > > Cheers, > ~~Owen > >> In my judgement the acute accent would be >> interpreted as a stress mark by most readers. And >> I think the two little dots are really not very >> obtrusive. But the choice here is one of >> character set and many many many fonts: While >> Windows has both y-acute and y-diaeresis, the >> classic Mac OS has only y-diaeresis. >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From koumanonff at orange.fr Tue Jun 24 22:57:18 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:57:18 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48616DBE.4070302@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 22:51:50 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:51:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 22:33 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >I have looked at your sample text, as requested. > >I really don't like this use of the dieresis. I think that it makes the >text look unauthentic. It's not hard to get used to. It's a solution to a problem. Without an umbrella graph (and we don't have one) we need to distinguish b?s/b?s words from bys and res words. >It's not really "unobtrusive". If it were it just wouldn't work. I remember not liking the look of too. I got used to it. >However, if we must have the dieresis in our orthography, I have the >following comments: > >1) It is easy to remember that is [i:]. It is less easy to remember that > is [e:]. You don't have to. If you say [i:] you should write . If you say [e:] you should write . But when you encounter a text written in the other dialect, the diaeresis will ensure that you know what word the writer intended. >2) It is easy to remember that is [e:]. It is easy for English speakers >to remember that is [i:]. Again, you're going to choose the dialect you prefer to write. Those dots will become familiar, and when you see the dots on the other vowel, you'll recognize the word. (Trust me, I know a fair bit about literacy and orthography.) >3) I would maintain as an alternative for those who cannot or do not >want to use diacritical marks. We can't mandate that in KS. It would introduce too great a change. (We will be doing other things >4) is closer to than it is to , so I would favour . You should favour whichever you pronounce. If you say [di:D], write . If you say [de:D], write . >5) could be used, instead of , if the is politically >unacceptable. This would give veadh, beas, deadh, preas ... just a thought. It's too late for that. I'm sorry. We have to interact with the SWF. The SWF isn't a total disaster. It has problems that need fixing so that it can be used and considered academically suitable. Nice as or might be, we won the bys/bes options. (Remember, at one stage only bys was on offer; was going to be an umbrella graph for [i:]~[e:] and was going to be used everywhere else. We fought hard against that -- it would have been a massive change for everyone (including KK users. It was a very bad idea. Since we won the right to write bys or bes as we pronounce, all we need to do is mark those so they can be distinguished from words without an alternation: bys [bIz] 'until' b?s [bi:z]~[be:z] 'world' b?s [bi:z]~[be:z] 'world' res [re:z] 'necessary' Really -- this will work. It will make texts easy to read and to write and it will make teaching easier and learning easier. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 22:58:49 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:58:49 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <200806242143.m5OLhiRr007903@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806242143.m5OLhiRr007903@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: At 23:43 +0200 2008-06-24, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >I very much sympathise with Owen. For me, e/y + >dewboynt is as easy or difficult to write as e/y >+ circumflex. There are many fonts and keyboard drivers which do not offer y-circumflex or y-acute. >There is no difference. The circumflex, tome, is >more logical, as it suggests a long vowel, >whereas a diaeresis in my association could >suggest a long or short vowel. As I said, consider which is pronounced [S?:n] in Standard German and [Se:n] in certain dialects (and Yiddish). We're not marking the length in . We're indicating that it can be pronounced [be:z] or [bi:z]. >And? uh? why are we talking about this? The >alternation of ~ in the SWF is OK and it >is also authentic in that it occurred in >traditional Cornish. This is not an error in the >SWF in my opinion. The fact that SWF bes [be:z] 'world' (which has an alternate pronunciation [bi:z]) is not distinguished from SWF res [re:z] 'necessary' (which has no alternate pronunciation) is an error in my opinion. (That is why we had KS16 beis.) The fact that SWF bys [bi:z] 'world' (which has an alternate pronunciation [be:z]) is not distinguished from SWF bys [bIz] 'until' (which has a completely different pronunciation) is an error in my opinion. (That is why we had KS16 b?s.) -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 23:01:55 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:01:55 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail. gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 22:55 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >Yes, I would prefer to use an acute accent, rather than using a dieresis, >providing the acute accent is not going to be used for something else. >I use a Windows PC, and all I have to do is to press the AltGr button whilst >typing my vowel. It won't work on a Macintosh on y. >This works for easily. I have made it work for (by re-mapping my >keyboard using the freely available Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator) but >some people would have difficulty with this. Indeed, your y-acute was converted to a double-dagger here on my Macintosh. >Some fonts don't work but most do. >Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to >a Mac or Linux machine, so I cannot try on those. I'm sorry people, but y-acute is not an option. Only y-diaeresis is. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Tue Jun 24 23:05:19 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:05:19 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <48616F9F.5000705@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:07:12 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:07:12 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855C1A88-665F-4752-A64F-9CD7CFCD74A4@gmail.com> For months now I have been writing b?s 'world', pr?v 'reptile', d?dh 'day', b?dh 'be!', gwr?s 'done', r?s 'given', dr?s 'brought', ah?s 'along', gw?dh 'trees' but ?s 'corn'. I can't see any problem. Nicholas _______ From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 23:08:37 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:08:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <200806242143.m5OLhiRs007903@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806242143.m5OLhiRs007903@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: At 23:43 +0200 2008-06-24, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >>{...} "I could live with with as an >>optional replacement graph for people who >>cannot or don't want to write diacritical >>marks. This would be similar to / in >>German. > >Good idea! It's not a workable idea for KS. We can't have bys [bi:z]~[be:z] 'world' and bys [bIz] 'until' undistinguished. We can't do away with the SWF's bys/bes pairing by deleting both of those and using beis. And we can't add more complexity to the system by having bys/bes/beis because that doesn't solve the 'world'/'until' problem anyway. The only solution I can see here is to use a diacritical mark on bys/bes words, and the only diacritical mark that is available to everyone on both e and y is the diaeresis. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 23:09:37 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:09:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <48616F9F.5000705@orange.fr> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> <88D089B1-0CF1-44A3-B696-923570BD283D@gmail.com> <4861670D.10407@freenet.co.uk> <48616F9F.5000705@orange.fr> Message-ID: At 00:05 +0200 2008-06-25, Koumanonff wrote: >I'd find easier for the learners, as I am, to >see be pronunced [i?] and be pronunced >[j?] (I use ? for schwa as I don't know how to >write it with my keyboard) You can use [i@] and [j@]. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Tue Jun 24 23:13:39 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:13:39 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail. gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48617193.5060906@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:17:08 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:17:08 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <200806242143.m5OLhiRr007903@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: <72942A5F-6958-4D9A-A788-BC47C3534D01@gmail.com> And worse still 'world' is pronounced bizz by ex-KK speakers (e.g. Matthew Clarke). Bizz is an error as is privv for pr?v. In order to make it clear that the vowel is different from that in bys 'until', b?s is a reasonable compromise. It doesn't alter the word itself. Lhuyd used circumflexes that were unknown in the traditional language. The absence of diacritics in the SWF is because the KK users insisted on their omission. This was because KK lacks them and (according to KK mythology/ propaganda) doesn't need them. The mere fact that pronunciations like *privv and *bizz occur, is indication that KK and now the SWF need(ed) diacritics. The reason for the absence of diacritics in KK and thus SWF is simply that English is without them. Inconsistently KK users repudiate English borrowings in the lexicon, but embrace this English spelling convention in the orthography. Cornish phonology is complicated and varied now in dialect. We cannot manage without diacritics and it is not sensible to pretend that we can. Better a diacritic on an attested spelling e.g. b?s 'world' than an entirely unattested spelling. Nicholas ----------- From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 23:22:11 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:22:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <48617193.5060906@orange.fr> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail. gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> <48617193.5060906@orange.fr> Message-ID: At 00:13 +0200 2008-06-25, Koumanonff wrote: >I don't quite agree with the use of diacrisis as the words could be >understand by the context. I would prefer, if I can, diacrisis for >the vowel length. That's my thought. Everyone is a learner of Cornish, and this dialect feature is very important. Some words have the alternation, some do not. Vowel length in both the SWF and KS is marked by the quality of the consonant which follows the vowel. Anomalous vowel length and quality is not marked in the SWF, but is marked in KS. The bys/bes alternation is one such quality. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 23:38:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:38:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <72942A5F-6958-4D9A-A788-BC47C3534D01@gmail.com> References: <200806242143.m5OLhiRr007903@onewbx1p.one.at> <72942A5F-6958-4D9A-A788-BC47C3534D01@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 23:17 +0100 2008-06-24, nicholas williams wrote: >And worse still 'world' is pronounced bizz >by ex-KK speakers (e.g. Matthew Clarke). Bizz is >an error as is privv for pr?v. In order to make >it clear that the vowel is different from that >in bys 'until', b?s is a reasonable compromise. That's right. The SWF bys 'world' and bys 'until' will doubtless both be pronounced [bIz] because of the gwin/gwynn distinction. >The reason for the absence of diacritics in KK >and thus SWF is simply that English is without >them. Did George eschew them for philosophical grounds, or because Nance did? >Inconsistently KK users repudiate English >borrowings in the lexicon, but embrace this >English spelling convention in the orthography. Na?ve of them... ;-) >Cornish phonology is complicated and varied now >in dialect. We cannot manage without diacritics >and it is not sensible to pretend that we can. Correct. And we can't choose diacritics that aren't available to anyone just because (with all due respect, Owen) they are used for functions other than the ones for which they are to be used in Cornish. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Tue Jun 24 23:50:37 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:50:37 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <48617A3D.2060307@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Tue Jun 24 23:57:22 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:57:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <48617A3D.2060307@orange.fr> References: <20080624091814.3E33A32675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> <4860F2F3.5000702@freenet.co.uk> <48617A3D.2060307@orange.fr> Message-ID: At 00:50 +0200 2008-06-25, Koumanonff wrote: >I've been surprised seeing in SWF that there's >not long vowels in polysyllabics (in RLC ha TC, >they say). Correct. Occasionally there are, but these are exceptions. >In Breton we should have two lengths (as we >learn in the teaching books). As far as I know >there's three. Long vowels are found in >monosyllabics, where they can be. Where it >should be long in polysyllabics, where they can >be, there are half long indeed. Is that it could >be adopted by KK the three lengths from Breton ? Yes. Ken George believed that Cornish and Breton were closer than they are. >Though, I find strange that vowels cannot be >long, under the stress, before the voiced >consonants in Cornish in polysyllabics. As far >as I know, they are also in Welsh. Why wouldn't >they be in cornish ? Could you tell me further ? One reason is that Cornish phonology was strongly affected throughout its history by English. And the one source we have for a genuine phonetic record of Cornish, Lhuyd, shows no sign of more than two lengths. >As to consider the long consonants, they do >occur in Breton, according to Canon Falc'hun >(who had created the so-called "university" >spelling of Breton), but my French ears (as I >had been brought up in French) don't ear them in >the dialects that I hear around me (Gouelo?, >Treger and Upper Kernev). Sure enough they had >been. They may have existed, but they are lost or being lost. The same happened in Cornish -- long long ago. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Wed Jun 25 00:12:14 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:12:14 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail. gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> <48617193.5060906@orange.fr> Message-ID: <48617F4E.50300@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 25 07:29:12 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:29:12 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail. gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 24 Jun 2008, at 23:01, Michael Everson wrote: > At 22:55 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >> Yes, I would prefer to use an acute accent, rather than using a >> dieresis, >> providing the acute accent is not going to be used for something >> else. >> I use a Windows PC, and all I have to do is to press the AltGr >> button whilst >> typing my vowel. > > It won't work on a Macintosh on y. > >> This works for easily. I have made it work for (by re- >> mapping my >> keyboard using the freely available Microsoft Keyboard Layout >> Creator) but >> some people would have difficulty with this. > > Indeed, your y-acute was converted to a double-dagger here on my > Macintosh. Rather than a double-dagger, I got a y-acute on *my* Macintosh, but I've no idea what the keyboard shortcut would be for me to type in that character-diacritic combination. Eddie From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 09:38:12 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:38:12 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080625083812.4DF59164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Writing and is not a good way to distinguish stress. We currently do not have a way of marking irregular stress in words such as mytern ?king?. The only sensible way to mark stress is by using a diacritic: myt?rn, profia, prov?a. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:33:50 +0100 > > > At 19:28 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: > > Yes, but we don't mark stress. Kernowek Dasunys did, but neither > > KS nor the SWF do. > > KS marks stress in distinguishing and , even if not elsewhere. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Wed Jun 25 09:51:49 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:51:49 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806250852.m5P8q2r1010282@onewbx2p.one.at> From: Michael Everson Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:59 PM At 23:43 +0200 2008-06-24, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >I very much sympathise with Owen. For me, e/y + >dewboynt is as easy or difficult to write as e/y >+ circumflex. ?There are many fonts and keyboard drivers which do not offer y-circumflex or y-acute.? I should say there are probably many fonts and keyboard drivers that don?t offer y-diaeresis. Same problem. I don?t think font and keyboard limitations should put us off designing a workable orthography. We?ll just have to make sure to explain to and provide users with the necessary software. Also, a majority of users has Microsoft, and designing an orthography to Mac specifications, because you happen to work with that system, is a little, well, should I say, self-centred ;-) >There is no difference. The circumflex, tome, is >more logical, as it suggests a long vowel, >whereas a diaeresis in my association could >suggest a long or short vowel. ?As I said, consider which is pronounced [S?:n] in Standard German and [Se:n] in certain dialects (and Yiddish). We're not marking the length in . We're indicating that it can be pronounced [be:z] or [bi:z].? I know, and I know it works, but that doesn?t mean I particularly like it. I prefer the circumflex because for me that is an unambiguous length marker, while the diaeresis isn?t. In the case or bys/bes, we are marking length; bys ?unil? has a short vowel by(diaeresis)s ?world? has a long vowel. >And why are we talking about this? The >alternation of ~ in the SWF is OK and it >is also authentic in that it occurred in >traditional Cornish. This is not an error in the >SWF in my opinion. ?The fact that SWF bes [be:z] 'world' (which has an alternate pronunciation [bi:z]) is not distinguished from SWF res [re:z] 'necessary' (which has no alternate pronunciation) is an error in my opinion. (That is why we had KS16 beis.)? We also had earlier KS with just bes. It wasn?t an error then, and I don?t believe it is now. In fact it just shows the later merger of the bys/bes-vowel with the res-vowel. ?The fact that SWF bys [bi:z] 'world' (which has an alternate pronunciation [be:z]) is not distinguished from SWF bys [bIz] 'until' (which has a completely different pronunciation) is an error in my opinion. (That is why we had KS16 b?s.)? Again, I disagree. Bys ?until? is an unstressed proclitic and has by this definition a short vowel. It?s the same as the unstressed y in benyn ?woman?, or the unstressed a in war ?on?. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Wed Jun 25 09:51:49 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:51:49 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> From: Michael Everson Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:02 AM "I'm sorry people, but y-acute is not an option. Only y-diaeresis is." Michael, I can write ? without even having to install a new keyboard driver or fix up a special font. It?s as easy as writing ?. Ad it even comes through on Yahoogroups! So, quite frankly, I?m a little disappointed that you dismiss ? because of what your computer can or cannot do. I?ve got much more difficulties writing y-diaeresis, about as much as y-circumflex. So were at square one. This is a software problem and one that can be solved. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 09:55:31 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:55:31 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional forms. The attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle & Tudor) and deeth (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the diaresis looks awful? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:53:23 +0100 > > > At 21:36 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: > > Good, I like it -- we can use as a stand-in for y-circumflex for > > those who find themselves without a y-circumflex-supporting font. > > Perfect. All the more reason not to use in words like dedh and > > pres! ;-) > > I see the smiley but the problem here is simply > how to deal with the SWF's ambiguous dydh/dedh. > We won't succeed with deidh, beautiful as it is. > That means marking the vowels, and there, there > is only one technical choice that will not > backfire on us. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From nige.martin at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 10:02:25 2008 From: nige.martin at gmail.com (Nige Martin) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:02:25 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Too much use of the letter 'i' for my liking but, if needs must and there exists no alternative, I will comply. N 2008/6/25 Jon Mills : > What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional forms. The > attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle & Tudor) and deeth > (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the diaresis looks awful? > Jon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Everson" > > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:53:23 +0100 > > > > > > At 21:36 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: > > > Good, I like it -- we can use as a stand-in for y-circumflex for > > > those who find themselves without a y-circumflex-supporting font. > > > Perfect. All the more reason not to use in words like dedh and > > > pres! ;-) > > > > I see the smiley but the problem here is simply > > how to deal with the SWF's ambiguous dydh/dedh. > > We won't succeed with deidh, beautiful as it is. > > That means marking the vowels, and there, there > > is only one technical choice that will not > > backfire on us. > > -- > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 10:07:34 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:07:34 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080625090734.02F741BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> I cannot find 'rial' in the SWF Outline. How do we know that it is to be thus spelled? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nicholas williams" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:15:04 +0100 > > > "Royal" is rial in the SWF > > Nicholas > ------------ > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 10:12:43 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:12:43 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] dydh, dedh, deidh Message-ID: <20080625091243.792DA164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> However, apart from the initial , these options do not bear much resemblance to any traditional forms.Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. J. Trim" To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: [Spellyans] dydh, dedh, deidh Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:26:42 +0100 "But it would lead to dydh/dedh/deidh as spellings for this word. I don't think we can get away with this! -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com" No, I was suggesting that the options should be d?dh or deidh. The vowel would be an umbrella graph. dydh would not be allowed as well. Those who like to use diacritical marks would pick d?dh. Those who do not or cannot would choose deidh. Germans choose between and or and . Most seem to choose the umlaut. Many Cornish users will prefer not to type diacritcal marks. However, I would expect most professionally printed material to be marked. I am suggesting that where diacritical marks are used, there should if possible be an alternative. Regards, Andrew J. Trim _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Wed Jun 25 10:18:30 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:18:30 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625090734.02F741BF28D@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <200806250918.m5P9IfAV011768@onewbx1p.one.at> Magic! No, I put together a provisional SWF dictionary and Ben and Albert used it to put there word list together. We had some minor disagreements and a lot has been corrected in my dictionary owing to Craig's, Nicholas' and Michael's kind suggestions. It still needs a lot of work though until I can publish it. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Jon Mills Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:08 AM "I cannot find 'rial' in the SWF Outline. How do we know that it is to be thus spelled? Jon" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Wed Jun 25 10:18:30 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:18:30 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> From: Jon Mills Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:56 AM "What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional forms. The attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle & Tudor) and deeth (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the diaresis looks awful? Jon" Rest assured, I?m no fan of the diaeresis either. This may be irrational and childish, but I also dislike the fact that Michael is pushing for diaeresis because it?s easy for HIM to write on HIS computer, while not considering the people that are using other systems and may find y-accute, y-grave or y-circumflex easier, or equally difficult to spell as y-diaeresis. Sorry, Michael, but it just doesn?t add up. I can live with the SWF alternation dydh ~ dedhyow and it?s alternative dedh ~ dedhyow. I don?t need any diacritic in this particular case. Jon, I?ve also found Lhuyd?s spelling for ?he day? in Late Cornish. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 10:30:26 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:30:26 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Yes, this something that has been bothering me. If the word 'provia' carries tonic stress on [-i-] then the [-i@] is an example of two vowels with hiatus as you describe. This contrasts with 'profya' that ends with a rising diphthong [j@]. Rial/ryal contains a diphthong [-i at -].Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Prohaska" To: "'Standard Cornish discussion list'" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:43:31 +0200 Jon, Neither are true diphthongs in the sense that they occur within one syllable, it?s two vowels with hiatus. Even if there was a sequence [?I.a] in opposition to [?i:.a] at one time, I believe they fell in with each other. That also goes for words that originally had /?Ixa/ which also became [?i:.@] as in . Dan -----Original Message----- From: Jon Mills Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:43 PM Are there two different diphthongs in Cornish then /ia/ and /ya/? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "A. J. Trim" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:43:13 +0100 > > > Yes, rial would be better than ryal ... (unless we are saying that the y is > short, and the stress is on the second syllable.) > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Craig Weatherhill" > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:13 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > > > The SWF is inconsistent in the values of and . Yes, we have > > where the vowel is short in both but the geminate is there > > to show that preocclusion occurs, BUT we have words like "regal, > > royal" where the vowel is most definitely long. So, why isn't it ? > > > > Surely it would be far simpler, and easier for learners, to have > > representing the short vowel (except for final position, as in ) > > and representing the long. > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > A. J. Trim wrote: > >> OK, so far - Simple, practical, not at odds with the evidence. > >> > >> Why does gwyll need to have two ls if y is always short? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Andrew J. Trim > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Michael Everson" > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:59 AM > >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > >> > >> > >>> At 09:18 +0000 2008-06-24, Jon Mills wrote: > >>> > >>>> Adherents of KK maintain that KK is easier to learn because it is > >>>> supposedly phonemic. However KK entails a phonology that, for most > >>>> learners is, in fact, difficult to achieve: 3 vowels lengths and > >>>> geminate consonants. As a result, KK is more difficult to learn than > >>>> the other forms of Cornish. > >>>> > >>> It would be easier if learners were Estonians. ;-) > >>> > >>> > >>>> Actual realisations of vowel length do not neatly fit in to 2 or 3 > >>>> lengths. For example, with regard to English, Trager and Smith > >>>> (1957) observed 5 different vowel lengths in the set, bit bid bin > >>>> hiss his. They write, "The vowel quality is in each case lower high > >>>> front unrounded: [I]. In bit there is the shortest vowel,in his the > >>>> longest for most speakers; bid and bin have fairly long vowels too > >>>> -- some speakers have the longest varieties here, sometimes even > >>>> with a drawling off-glide effect; in hiss the vowel is longer than > >>>> in bit, but considerably shorter than in his or bid; in bin there is > >>>> a marked nasalization of the vowel ...." > >>>> > >>> For me this is an overstatement. I'd have bit/hiss as short, and > >>> bid/bin/his as longer. I don't detect more subtlety than that without > >>> a whole lot of persnicketiness. The bit/bid distinction is easy to > >>> teach to English speaking learners however, and that's one of the > >>> reasons it is the core of the vowel system in KS and by adoption the > >>> SWF. > >>> > >>> English bit/bid is an allophonic distinction, of course, not a > >>> phonemic distinction. > >>> > >>> > >>>> However, within the phonological system of English, only 2 vowel > >>>> lengths operate. These are determined by minimal contrast pairs: > >>>> bit - beat > >>>> bid - bead > >>>> his - he's > >>>> etc. > >>>> > >>> I am not sure if I agree with this analysis. Bit and beat differ in > >>> quality, not in quantity. Bid and bead differ in quality, not in > >>> quantity. Same with his and he's, and piss and peace. > >>> > >>> > >>>> With regard to Cornish then, if one wants to argue for either 2 or 3 > >>>> vowel lengths, minimal contrast sets (extracted from the historical > >>>> corpus) need to be presented. But even this method is questionable > >>>> because the corpus is written and the actual pronunciation of any > >>>> forms contained therein is conjectural. > >>>> > >>> Quite so. > >>> > >>> > >>>> The only sensible and practical pedagogy is surely for learners to > >>>> be taught 2 vowel lengths and 1 consonant length. But should the SWF > >>>> make provision for those who aspire to 3 vowels lengths and long > >>>> consonants? I cannot imagine that these aspirants are very numerous. > >>>> My guess is that, given the choice, the vast majority of KK learners > >>>> would opt for a phonology that is easier to learn. > >>>> > >>> I agree. And the fact that they are English speakers makes the above > >>> relevant. > >>> > >>> In English we have qualitative phonemes: > >>> > >>> /I/ "bit [bIt], bid [bI.d], piss [pIs], his [hI.z] with allphonic > >>> lengthening > >>> > >>> /i/ "beat [bit], bead [bi.d], peace [pis], he's [hi.z] with allphonic > >>> lengthening > >>> > >>> In Cornish we have quantitative phonemes: > >>> > >>> /i/ myn [mIn], gwyll [gwIl], loss [lOs] with allphonic lowering > >>> > >>> /i:/ min [mi:n], gwil [gwi:l] los [lo:z] with allphonic raising > >>> > >>> With the quantity rules in KS/SWF, teachers should be able to use > >>> English phonology to teach and to improve the pronunciation of > >>> Cornish phonemic quantity. > >>> > >>> Is this scheme agreeable to everyone? (This is key; as editor I will > >>> use IPA symbols to show both quality and quantity in phonetic > >>> transcription.) > >>> -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Spellyans mailing list > >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Spellyans mailing list > >> Spellyans at kernowek.net > >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 10:45:15 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:45:15 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system Message-ID: <20080625094515.C7E1DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> However Lhuyd gives "Byz pan", 'Until' (AB 249a); and "Biz", 'Even unto' (AB249b). Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nicholas williams" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:17:08 +0100 > > > And worse still 'world' is pronounced bizz by ex-KK speakers > (e.g. Matthew Clarke). > Bizz is an error as is privv for pr?v. _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 10:50:02 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:50:02 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> References: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> Message-ID: At 10:51 +0200 2008-06-25, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >"I'm sorry people, but y-acute is not an option. Only y-diaeresis is." > >Michael, I can write ? I received a double-dagger. >without even having to install a new keyboard >driver or fix up a special font. It's as easy as >writing ?. That's fine. You're not a typical user by any means. >Ad it even comes through on Yahoogroups! So, >quite frankly, I'm a little disappointed that >you dismiss ? because of what your computer can >or cannot do. It's not only MY computer. MY computer is an example. I am concerned about EVERYONE. The computer illiterate. Those who will attack us and attack us and attack us for using diacritics AT ALL, never mind using characters which ARE NOT AVAILABLE in many fonts. >I've got much more difficulties writing >y-diaeresis, about as much as y-circumflex. What problems? And what does it mean "more problems with X, about as much as Y"? I type y-diaeresis on Irish keyboard and the British keyboard quite easily. >So were at square one. This is a software problem and one that can be solved. Large Unicode fonts may have many characters. BUT MOST FONTS in the world are limited to Windows 1252 and Mac Roman, and the only SAFE characters to use re the ones found in BOTH character sets. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 10:58:06 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:58:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics on Mobile Devices In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My Sony Cli? (personal organser) will produce ? but not ?. My wife's Alcatel mobile phone will produce ?, ?, ?, ? but not ? and not ?. My Sharp mobile phone will not produce any diacritics. My Sony Ericsson mobile phone will only produce diacritics that are in the "dictionary" for the language being typed. German is an option but of course Cornish is not. You can add words to the dictionary but it does not allow the inclusion of diacritical marks. Devices such as these are increasingly important, especially amongst the under 50s, for recording and communicating all sorts of information. Their potential to encourage the use of Cornish should not be under valued. We should make sure that we do not add unnecessary technical challenges to their use. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Eddie Climo" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:29 AM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > On 24 Jun 2008, at 23:01, Michael Everson wrote: > >> At 22:55 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >>> Yes, I would prefer to use an acute accent, rather than using a >>> dieresis, >>> providing the acute accent is not going to be used for something >>> else. >>> I use a Windows PC, and all I have to do is to press the AltGr >>> button whilst >>> typing my vowel. >> >> It won't work on a Macintosh on y. >> >>> This works for easily. I have made it work for (by re- >>> mapping my >>> keyboard using the freely available Microsoft Keyboard Layout >>> Creator) but >>> some people would have difficulty with this. >> >> Indeed, your y-acute was converted to a double-dagger here on my >> Macintosh. > > Rather than a double-dagger, I got a y-acute on *my* Macintosh, but > I've no idea what the keyboard shortcut would be for me to type in > that character-diacritic combination. > > Eddie > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 11:05:37 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:05:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No. Well, perhaps "awful" is a bit strong but I would prefer not to use it. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jon Mills" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:55 AM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional forms. The > attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle & Tudor) and > deeth (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the diaresis looks awful? > Jon > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Everson" >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:53:23 +0100 >> >> >> At 21:36 +0300 2008-06-24, Owen Cook wrote: >> > Good, I like it -- we can use as a stand-in for y-circumflex for >> > those who find themselves without a y-circumflex-supporting font. >> > Perfect. All the more reason not to use in words like dedh and >> > pres! ;-) >> >> I see the smiley but the problem here is simply >> how to deal with the SWF's ambiguous dydh/dedh. >> We won't succeed with deidh, beautiful as it is. >> That means marking the vowels, and there, there >> is only one technical choice that will not >> backfire on us. >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 11:05:41 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:05:41 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] dydh, dedh, deidh In-Reply-To: <20080625091243.792DA164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625091243.792DA164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <2AC232CB-8634-4EE3-AF08-5F99EFA6AE9F@gmail.com> dydh is common in Late Cornish. Neil writes d?dh and an j?dh. Tregear always writes dith but an jeth. If we wrote dyth/dith/deth and an jeth/jyth, the word would be pronounced with a voiceless final segment (as was the case in UC). The final is necessary. deth also might meant 'thou comest' and 'came'. Some regularisation away from the traditional orthography is, alas, necessary. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 10:12, Jon Mills wrote: > However, apart from the initial , these options do not bear much > resemblance to any traditional forms. > Jon From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Wed Jun 25 11:37:22 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:37:22 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> I would like to propose to replace all SWF Main Form occurrences of with in the Late register of the SWF. Here are a few examples: SWF/MF bogh 'cheek' => SWF/LF boh SWF/MF flogh 'child' => SWF/LF floh SWF/MF bregh 'arm' => SWF/LF breh SWF/MF dhywgh 'to-you' => SWF/LF dhewh ~ dewh SWF/MF forgh => SWF/LF vorh What do you think? Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 11:53:33 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:53:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <200806250852.m5P8q2r1010282@onewbx2p.one.at> References: <200806250852.m5P8q2r1010282@onewbx2p.one.at> Message-ID: At 10:51 +0200 2008-06-25, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >"There are many fonts and keyboard drivers which >do not offer y-circumflex or y-acute." > >I should say there are probably many fonts and >keyboard drivers that don't offer y-diaeresis. No, because when people make fonts they typically put in all the "standard" characters. Y-diaeresis is "standard" in both Mac Roman and Windows 1252. That letter is safe. Y-acute is simply not available in many fonts. And many fonts are Mac fonts. Choosing y-acute is simply guaranteed to cause problems for people. Choosing y-diaeresis is the better option. Keyboard inputting software is a different matter. Each computer user could download a special Cornish keyboard driver. Easy. But thousands upon thousands of fonts do not have both characters. Having missing characters is MUCH WORSE than >Same problem. I don't think font and keyboard >limitations should put us off designing a >workable orthography. There is nothing unworkable about ?/? in terms of universal availability in fonts. There *is* something problematic about both ?/?y and ?/?y. And there's nothing wrong with the diaeresis. >We'll just have to make sure to explain to and >provide users with the necessary software. Also, >a majority of users has Microsoft, and designing >an orthography to Mac specifications, because >you happen to work with that system, is a >little, well, should I say, self-centred ;-) I am not thinking only of myself. And I am as unimpressed by the "Microsoft Is Big" argument as I was by the "Kebmyn Is Big" argument. In point of fact Macs are used very widely in the production of published materials. And market share is growing. >"As I said, consider which is pronounced >[S?:n] in Standard German and [Se:n] in certain >dialects (and Yiddish). We're not marking the >length in . We're indicating that it can be >pronounced [be:z] or [bi:z]." > >I know, and I know it works, but that doesn't >mean I particularly like it. I prefer the >circumflex because for me that is an unambiguous >length marker, while the diaeresis isn't. Actually, Dan, we are using the circumflex for something else: stret is [strEt] and str?t is [stre:t]. So it the circumflex is not even *available* for use for the b?s/b?s words. >In the case or bys/bes, we are marking length; >bys "unil" has a short vowel by(diaeresis)s >"world" has a long vowel. We are only marking length in b?s because of the i/y distinction in monosyllables; bes and b?s are both inherently long so length per se is not marked in b?s. >"The fact that SWF bes [be:z] 'world' (which has >an alternate pronunciation [bi:z]) is not >distinguished from SWF res [re:z] 'necessary' >(which has no alternate pronunciation) is an >error in my opinion. (That is why we had KS16 >beis.)" > >We also had earlier KS with just bes. It wasn't >an error then, and I don't believe it is now. In >fact it just shows the later merger of the >bys/bes-vowel with the res-vowel. That's not really true. That version of KS rejected [bi:z] as an option entirely. That was a mistake; it was not inclusive. >"The fact that SWF bys [bi:z] 'world' (which has >an alternate pronunciation [be:z]) is not >distinguished from SWF bys [bIz] 'until' (which >has a completely different pronunciation) is an >error in my opinion. (That is why we had KS16 >b?s.)" > >Again, I disagree. Bys "until" is an unstressed >proclitic and has by this definition a short >vowel. It's the same as the unstressed y in >benyn "woman", or the unstressed a in war "on". In the SWF one cannot distinguish bys 'until' from bys 'world' or war 'beware' from war 'on'. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 11:54:44 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:54:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 08:55 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional >forms. The attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle >& Tudor) and deeth (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the >diaresis looks awful? I promise, it is not hard to get used to things. I once thought looked awful. I got used to it. We have to solve problems if we want something learnable and teachable. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 11:59:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:59:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625083812.4DF59164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625083812.4DF59164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 08:38 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >Writing and is not a good way to distinguish stress. Why not? It is regular, it works, it's easy to learn, and both graphs are found (indescriminately, it is true) in Traditional Cornish. It also helps to balance things between RLC users who tend not to like the letter and Nancean RMC users who tend not to like the letter . > We currently do not have a way of marking >irregular stress in words such as mytern ?king?. >The only sensible way to mark stress is by using >a diacritic: myt?rn, profia, prov?a. The SWF distinguishes [i:@] and [j@] and there is nothing wrong with making this distinction. I don't see you making a convincing argument against it. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 12:00:24 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:00:24 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] dydh, dedh, deidh In-Reply-To: <20080625091243.792DA164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625091243.792DA164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 09:12 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >However, apart from the initial , these options do not bear much >resemblance to any traditional forms. We aren't going to abandon . Please don't suggest that we do.... -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 12:26:12 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:26:12 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system Message-ID: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Michael, Why can't Macs read and write diacritics (other than diaresis) above ? I would have thought in this day of Unicode fonts .... If what you say is true, then it seems to me a good reason for using a PC. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eddie Climo" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:29:12 +0100 > > > On 24 Jun 2008, at 23:01, Michael Everson wrote: > > > At 22:55 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: > >> Yes, I would prefer to use an acute accent, rather than using a dieresis, > >> providing the acute accent is not going to be used for something else. > >> I use a Windows PC, and all I have to do is to press the AltGr > >> button whilst > >> typing my vowel. > > > > It won't work on a Macintosh on y. > > > >> This works for easily. I have made it work for (by re- mapping my > >> keyboard using the freely available Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator) but > >> some people would have difficulty with this. > > > > Indeed, your y-acute was converted to a double-dagger here on my Macintosh. > > Rather than a double-dagger, I got a y-acute on *my* Macintosh, but > I've no idea what the keyboard shortcut would be for me to type in > that character-diacritic combination. > > Eddie > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 12:26:58 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:26:58 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: OK with me. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From: Daniel Prohaska Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:37 AM To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for I would like to propose to replace all SWF Main Form occurrences of with in the Late register of the SWF. Here are a few examples: SWF/MF bogh 'cheek' => SWF/LF boh SWF/MF flogh 'child' => SWF/LF floh SWF/MF bregh 'arm' => SWF/LF breh SWF/MF dhywgh 'to-you' => SWF/LF dhewh ~ dewh SWF/MF forgh => SWF/LF vorh What do you think? Dan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:30:17 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:30:17 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> Message-ID: <4488CCFB-74C0-4143-AFF5-59155C9EAB87@gmail.com> The suggestion is that we write either d?dh or d?dh to write our preferred form. The dewboynt is there to indicate that the other pronunciation is permissible. I write d?dh but ?s. Others can write d?dh but ?s if they wish. Surely this means that the variation dedh/dydh, es/ys, gwedh/gwydh is already present in what we recommend, but the reader and learner are made aware by the dewboynt that the alternative pronunciation is possible. To say that "the diaeresis looks awful" is purely subjective. It's on a par with the KKers on the AHG saying that hw looked right (i.e. familiar). Such "judgements" can be disregarded. Diacritics have this merit: they don't actually interfere with the letters. They are an adjunct to it, not a respelling. To me an acute means either length (Irish) or stress (Spanish). Diaeresis is clearly not related either to length or to stress. That is why it is preferable to any other diacritic in the case of b?s, b?dh, gw?dh, pr?v, adr?v or b?s, b?dh, gw?dh, pr?v, adr?v, etc. What any computer or keyboard can do is also largely irrelevant. Nicholas ------------ On 25 Jun 2008, at 10:50, Michael Everson wrote: > At 10:51 +0200 2008-06-25, Daniel Prohaska wrote: > >> "I'm sorry people, but y-acute is not an option. Only y-diaeresis >> is." >> >> Michael, I can write ? > > I received a double-dagger. > >> without even having to install a new keyboard >> driver or fix up a special font. It's as easy as >> writing ?. > > That's fine. You're not a typical user by any means. > >> Ad it even comes through on Yahoogroups! So, >> quite frankly, I'm a little disappointed that >> you dismiss ? because of what your computer can >> or cannot do. > > It's not only MY computer. MY computer is an > example. I am concerned about EVERYONE. The > computer illiterate. Those who will attack us and > attack us and attack us for using diacritics AT > ALL, never mind using characters which ARE NOT > AVAILABLE in many fonts. > >> I've got much more difficulties writing >> y-diaeresis, about as much as y-circumflex. > > What problems? And what does it mean "more > problems with X, about as much as Y"? I type > y-diaeresis on Irish keyboard and the British > keyboard quite easily. > >> So were at square one. This is a software problem and one that can >> be solved. > > Large Unicode fonts may have many characters. BUT > MOST FONTS in the world are limited to Windows > 1252 and Mac Roman, and the only SAFE characters > to use re the ones found in BOTH character sets. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 12:43:10 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:43:10 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080625114310.40AEBBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Good idea. I second that.Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Prohaska" To: "'Standard Cornish discussion list'" Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:37:22 +0200 I would like to propose to replace all SWF Main Form occurrences of with in the Late register of the SWF. Here are a few examples: SWF/MF bogh ?cheek? => SWF/LF boh SWF/MF flogh ?child? => SWF/LF floh SWF/MF bregh ?arm? => SWF/LF breh SWF/MF dhywgh ?to-you? => SWF/LF dhewh ~ dewh SWF/MF forgh => SWF/LF vorh What do you think? Dan _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christian.semmens at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:45:44 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:45:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think this may be taking things a bit too far. I think everyone would be happy with 'deth' or 'dyth' without recourse to diacritics at all. I strongly suspect that no one will actually write them once they become fluent enough anyway. Deith still looks horrible to me (as does chei, rei etc..), and I've tried to like it, really I have. Is it really such a huge problem? Christian 2008/6/25 Michael Everson : > At 08:55 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >>What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional >>forms. The attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle >>& Tudor) and deeth (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the >>diaresis looks awful? > > I promise, it is not hard to get used to things. I once thought > looked awful. I got used to it. > > We have to solve problems if we want something learnable and teachable. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From christian.semmens at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:49:06 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:49:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Oops I meant of course 'dydh' and 'dedh' From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:49:28 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:49:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> If you write dhywgh 'to you', to be consistent you will have to change the spelling of the 2nd plural desinence in all prepositional pronouns and in all verbs as well. What a massive change that would be! kerowgh < kerowh, owgh > owh, bedhewgh > bedhewh, kewgh > kewh, gyllowgh > gyllowh, may hallowgh > may hallowh. And for what purpose? The endings ough/owgh/ogh/ugh are virtually universal in the texts. The wgh endings are common in CW and Borde has drewgh eyo hag amanyn de vi. Is it sensible to add a further difference between the revived language and the foundation texts? And between registers? Besides the theoretical basis of the change is highly questionable. One can easily write bogh and say bo:h. It would be harder to get bo:x from . Do you really want to write ogh! as ? People will just say [o:] or [@w]. Not a good idea, in my view. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 11:37, Daniel Prohaska wrote: > I would like to propose to replace all SWF Main Form occurrences of > with in the Late register of the SWF. Here are a few > examples: > > SWF/MF bogh ?cheek? => SWF/LF boh > SWF/MF flogh ?child? => SWF/LF floh > SWF/MF bregh ?arm? => SWF/LF breh > SWF/MF dhywgh ?to-you? => SWF/LF dhewh ~ dewh > SWF/MF forgh => SWF/LF > vorh > > What do you think? > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 12:48:26 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:48:26 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: At 11:18 +0200 2008-06-25, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >Rest assured, I'm no fan of the diaeresis either. Why not? Nance used it on ? and very occasionally on ?. It's not unfamiliar to the Cornish eye. >This may be irrational and childish, but I also >dislike the fact that Michael is pushing for >diaeresis because it's easy for HIM to write on >HIS computer, No, Dan. I can typeset real Unicode perfectly well in Quark XPress. My e-mail client is not Unicode enabled, however. I'm looking out for people less technically adept than myself. I'm not willing to condemn the Cornish language or any of its users to the kinds of problems Welsh users have. >[...] while not considering the people that are >using other systems and may find y-accute, >y-grave or y-circumflex easier, or equally >difficult to spell as y-diaeresis. Sorry, >Michael, but it just doesn't add up. Dan, huge numbers of fonts simply lack y-acute, y-grave, and y-circumflex ENTIRELY. Y-diaresis is available to everybody, however. It does not matter if your system can TYPE a letter if the fonts you are using don't have it. You'll get an empty box instead of the letter you want. Keyboard software to assist input is a one-off fix, easy to manage, easy to distribute. There is no way we can fix ten thousand fonts missing a letter we want to use in our orthography. The suggestion to use y-acute will disadvantage many users. I can't support that. This isn't new, either. It has always been a part of KS. See ?1.3.7. >I can live with the SWF alternation dydh ~ >dedhyow and it's alternative dedh ~ dedhyow. I >don't need any diacritic in this particular case. Then you can't distinguish words which do have the alternation bys/bes from those which do not. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 12:50:50 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:50:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 09:30 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >Yes, this something that has been bothering >me. If the word 'provia' carries tonic stress on >[-i-] then the [-i@] is an example of two vowels >with hiatus as you describe. We mention this in KS 16 ?1.5.8. >This contrasts with 'profya' that ends with a >rising diphthong [j@]. Rial/ryal contains a >diphthong [-i at -]. That distinction doesn't affect the pronunciation in a discernible way, since profia is a polysyllable and rial is a monosyllable. How do you want to spell [i:@] and [j@], Jon? I don't see you making a constructive proposal. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 12:53:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:53:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: At 12:37 +0200 2008-06-25, Daniel Prohaska wrote: >I would like to propose to replace all SWF Main Form occurrences of > with in the Late register of the SWF. Here are a few >examples: > >SWF/MF bogh 'cheek' => SWF/LF boh >SWF/MF flogh 'child' => SWF/LF floh >SWF/MF bregh 'arm' => SWF/LF breh >SWF/MF dhywgh 'to-you' => SWF/LF dhewh ~ dewh >SWF/MF forgh => SWF/LF vorh > >What do you think? I think we cannot touch all topics at once. :-) However, I don't like this suggestion, because final can easily be an umbrella graph for [x] and [h]. There's no advantage to having this additional variety in spelling. That is, -gh is not a problem to fix. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:57:07 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:57:07 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horr ha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei Teeack Komeer weeth na Raw?y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da Bennen Younk. Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. In MC the word is spelt ky. Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< KK) occurs once: citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war an fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. Nicholas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 13:01:40 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:01:40 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: <20080625120140.9991EBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Michael, Why do you need to orthographically distinguish words with the bys/bes-alternation from those without? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:48:26 +0100 > > ... > > I can live with the SWF alternation dydh ~ dedhyow and it's > > alternative dedh ~ dedhyow. I don't need any diacritic in this > > particular case. > > Then you can't distinguish words which do have > the alternation bys/bes from those which do not. > -- _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 12:57:50 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:57:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >Michael, >Why can't Macs read and write diacritics (other than diaresis) above ? Because Mac Roman, which is implemented in tens of thousands of fonts which we cannot change, only contains y-diaeresis. Similarly, the Windows 1252 code page, also implemented in tens of thousands of fonts which we cannot change, only contains y-diaeresis and y-acute. >I would have thought in this day of Unicode fonts .... If what you >say is true, then it seems to me a good reason for using a PC. It's not a few large Unicode fonts I am worried about. We have inherited twenty years of legacy fonts which simply do not have y-grave and y-circumflex. I don't want to see KS orthography attacked because we choose letters which will be MISSING from fonts. I don't want to see users who are OK with diacritics put off of KS orthography because we chose letters which are not in their favourite fonts. The only safe letter is y-diaeresis. There is no better choice. The other choices are worse. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:03:15 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:03:15 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:45 +0100 2008-06-25, Christian Semmens wrote: >At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think this may be taking >things a bit too far. I think everyone would be happy with 'deth' or >'dyth' without recourse to diacritics at all. I strongly suspect that >no one will actually write them once they become fluent enough anyway. >Deith still looks horrible to me (as does chei, rei etc..), and I've >tried to like it, really I have. > >Is it really such a huge problem? It is. It is a problem for readers of texts written in the other dialect. The brief was to be phonetic. The SWF doesn't give learners enough information. Take a word, . A learner sees it. Is this a / word? Or is it a word? What about bes, des, fes, ges, hes, les, mes, nes, ses, tes, or ves? (I'm sure some of these are not attested; I just made a list.) If we write b?s/b?s, the learner who encounters pes will know it's not got a *pys form. Making this distinction is good orthography design. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 13:15:48 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:15:48 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: <20080625121548.14925164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> To be precise, Jooan Chei a Horr (BM Add. MS 28,554: ff.128-9) is in John Boson's hand. So John Boson's spelling.Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "nicholas williams" To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:57:07 +0100 I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horrha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei TeeackKomeer weeth na Raw?y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da Bennen Younk. Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. In MC the word is spelt ky.Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< KK) occurs once: citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war an fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. Nicholas _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christian.semmens at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:17:43 2008 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:17:43 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> Message-ID: Its purely an aesthetic thing with me. I like chi and ki even less than I like chei and kei. I always preferred chy, ky. Christian 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : > I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: > Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horr > ha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei Teeack > Komeer weeth na Raw'y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da Bennen > Younk. > Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. In MC > the word is spelt ky. > Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< KK) occurs > once: > citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war an > fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. > Nicholas > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:24:57 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:24:57 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625120140.9991EBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625120140.9991EBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:01 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >Michael, >Why do you need to orthographically distinguish words with the >bys/bes-alternation from those without? So that learners and readers of one dialect can recognize those words written in the other dialect. We already do exactly the same thing with pre-occlusion. We allow pre-occluders to write and and we allow non-pre-occluders to write and . And we restrict the use of and to words which may pre-occlude so that pre-occluding readers will not mispronounce words with short vowels but no pre-occlusion. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:31:39 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:31:39 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Nicholas and Michael here. If a Late Cornish user can look at a Middle Cornish spelling and immediately know exactly how it must be pronounced in Late Cornish, then let's not mess with it. For instance, I won't be writing por'h and for' very much, because I know that's how porth and fordh should be pronounced most of the time. The apostrophe does nothing but satisfy the curiosity of those ignorant of Late Cornish pronunciation. By the same principle, for LC 'h' works fine for me. (The same is not true, by the way, of 'eth, because we ONLY have 'eyth' attested in the texts. In my opinion conscientious Cornish users should write 'eth passim.) Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : > If you write dhywgh 'to you', to be consistent you will have to change the > spelling of the 2nd plural desinence > in all prepositional pronouns and in all verbs as well. What a massive > change that would be! > kerowgh < kerowh, owgh > owh, bedhewgh > bedhewh, kewgh > kewh, gyllowgh > > gyllowh, may hallowgh > may hallowh. > And for what purpose? The endings ough/owgh/ogh/ugh are virtually universal > in the texts. The wgh endings are common in CW > and Borde has drewgh eyo hag amanyn de vi. Is it sensible to add a further > difference between the revived language and the foundation texts? And > between registers? > Besides the theoretical basis of the change is highly questionable. One can > easily write bogh and say bo:h. It would be > harder to get bo:x from . > Do you really want to write ogh! as ? People will just say [o:] or [@w]. > Not a good idea, in my view. > Nicholas From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:32:18 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:32:18 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625120140.9991EBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625120140.9991EBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:01 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >Michael, >Why do you need to orthographically distinguish words with the >bys/bes-alternation from those without? And why do we want the orthography to be precise? Because learners need help. Because someone with a bit of Cornish might be asked to read a passage in Church, and if the text is written in an orthography which is more precise rather than less, it will be easier. The SWF is fairly "phonetic" to use the word as laymen use it -- but where it isn't, it is badly ambiguous. We can distinguish bys/bes words from res words and bys words easily, with a diacritical mark. The word shape is unchanged, and (in fairness) we can expect people to leave the marks of when sending SMS text messages. (U cn hrdly xpect thm to spel english correctly in SMS anywy, can U?) We can't oblige people to use the diacritics. But we can choose good diacritics rather than bad and we can be examples of best practice by using them regularly and correctly in our publications. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:34:39 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:34:39 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> Aha! Good to know. But we don't need to correct to , since the SWF uses rather than here anyway. ~~Owen 2008/6/24 nicholas williams : > > I can find no examples of . occurs in moghheys 'increased' and > yaghheys 'healed'. > on the other hand is quite well attested in such forms as gottha past > subj. of coth 'ought' and perfettha, the comparative of > perfeth 'perfect'. > Nicholas From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 13:35:21 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:35:21 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: <20080625123521.66E8A11581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Context tells you which type of word you have. It was not a problem for the readers/writers of the Middle Cornish texts. I don't find it a problem when I read the Middle Cornish texts. Of course, what many language learners would like is a single written form. However the Cornish language community is not yet ready for a single written form and so we have the Standard Written Form with variants. From talking to various people at the Tremough conferences, it seems evident to me that the overwhelming majority of Cornish speakers and learners would prefer to eschew diacritics altogether. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:03:15 +0100 > > > At 12:45 +0100 2008-06-25, Christian Semmens wrote: > > At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think this may be taking > > things a bit too far. I think everyone would be happy with 'deth' or > > 'dyth' without recourse to diacritics at all. I strongly suspect that > > no one will actually write them once they become fluent enough anyway. > > Deith still looks horrible to me (as does chei, rei etc..), and I've > > tried to like it, really I have. > > > > Is it really such a huge problem? > > It is. It is a problem for readers of texts > written in the other dialect. The brief was to be > phonetic. The SWF doesn't give learners enough > information. > > Take a word, . A learner sees it. Is this a > / word? Or is it a word? What > about bes, des, fes, ges, hes, les, mes, nes, > ses, tes, or ves? (I'm sure some of these are not > attested; I just made a list.) > > If we write b?s/b?s, the learner who encounters > pes will know it's not got a *pys form. > > Making this distinction is good orthography design. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:37:40 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:37:40 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 15:31 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >(The same is not true, by the way, of 'eth, because we ONLY have >'eyth' attested in the texts. In my opinion conscientious Cornish >users should write 'eth passim.) See KS 16 ?1.4.3 Note 1: NOTE 1: Traditional Cornish normally uses the word for 'language', although 'language' is used three times in Tregear, which was not available to Nance when he reconstructed . We recommend distinguishing [e:T] 'eight, vapour', [e:T] 'goest, went' and [e:T], [je:T] 'language'. There are lots of people who do say [je:T]; I don't have a problem keeping the spelling and saying that it is an exception with two pronunciations, [e:T] and [je:T]. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 13:38:11 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:38:11 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: <20080625123811.829B9104F0@ws1-3.us4.outblaze.com> So why then do we not need a diaresis over ~ ? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:24:57 +0100 > > > At 12:01 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: > > Michael, > > Why do you need to orthographically distinguish words with the > > bys/bes-alternation from those without? > > So that learners and readers of one dialect can recognize those words > written in the other dialect. > > We already do exactly the same thing with pre-occlusion. We allow > pre-occluders to write and and we allow non-pre-occluders > to write and . And we restrict the use of and to > words which may pre-occlude so that pre-occluding readers will not > mispronounce words with short vowels but no pre-occlusion. > > > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:41:15 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:41:15 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 15:34 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >Aha! Good to know. But we don't need to correct to , since >the SWF uses rather than here anyway. In KS we write and because there is a stem and a suffix. See KS 16 ?1.6.20. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:47:52 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:47:52 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625123521.66E8A11581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625123521.66E8A11581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:35 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >Context tells you which type of word you have. Not if you are a learner. >It was not a problem for the readers/writers of the Middle Cornish texts. That's not very helpful. >I don't find it a problem when I read the Middle Cornish texts. You're not an average user, are you? >Of course, what many language learners would like is a single >written form. However the Cornish language community is not yet >ready for a single written form and so we have the Standard Written >Form with variants. Yes, and we want to use diacritical marks to distinguish words which are otherwise ambiguous. >From talking to various people at the Tremough conferences, it seems >evident to me that the overwhelming majority of Cornish speakers and >learners would prefer to eschew diacritics altogether. You don't hear that in Ireland, or in Scotland, or in Wales, or in Brittany. Although the text did not appear in the final published SWF, Trond and Ben and Albert had agreed with Nicholas and me the following text: "Diacritical marks are not a part of the mandated SWF orthography. However, publishers are permitted to be use them, optionally, to mark words with anomalous vowel length or quality." In a document by Ben and Albert summarizing discussions of the AHG, they said this: "Diacritical marks are not part of the SWF. (Publishers can add some if they think that they are necessary for pedagogical reasons.)" They did not include this text in the SWF, which I consider to be a broken promise. As a publisher, however, I believe that anomalous vowel length and quality is something that should be marked. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 13:50:34 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:50:34 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625123811.829B9104F0@ws1-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625123811.829B9104F0@ws1-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:38 +0000 2008-06-25, Jon Mills wrote: >So why then do we not need a diaresis over ~ ? Because there is no ambiguity. When you see you know that it can be and vice versa. When you see you don't know if it is a [bi:z]~[be:z] word or a [bIz] word. When you see you don't know if it is a [bi:z]~[be:z] word or a [re:z] word. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:51:43 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:51:43 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250551l1def208g1cabd903bf4a4a37@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/25 Jon Mills : > Yes, this something that has been bothering me. If the word 'provia' carries > tonic stress on [-i-] then the [-i@] is an example of two vowels with hiatus > as you describe. This contrasts with 'profya' that ends with a rising > diphthong [j@]. Rial/ryal contains a diphthong [-i at -]. > Jon No, you would have to prove that /i@/ as a diphthong is somehow different from /i.@/ as two vowels on hiatus. I strongly doubt this. /i/ is frequently followed by another vowel on hiatus -- 'provia' is one example, 'tiogyon' is another. In the SWF as in KS, always represents a vowel. The consonant /j/ is always . So for /i.@/ and for /ja/ is totally regular and makes good sense. And as Michael pointed out, both types of spelling are attested in the texts. Personally I wouldn't analyze 'profya' as having a rising diphthong anyway. Would you say 'yar' has a rising diphthong? Why postulate a separate rising diphthong or triphthong for /ju/, /jo/, /ja/, /je/, /jQ/, /jow/ when we can more economically say that these are a single consonant, /j/, followed by the vowels and diphthongs we already know? Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:54:03 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:54:03 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250554w7bd3841awae6053729d361272@mail.gmail.com> To be sure, but we were talking about before in words like KK 'syggha' -- now KS and SWF 'sygha'. True, 'moghhe' and 'yaghhe' are different things anyway. ~~Owen 2008/6/25 Michael Everson : > At 15:34 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >>Aha! Good to know. But we don't need to correct to , since >>the SWF uses rather than here anyway. > > In KS we write and because > there is a stem and a suffix. See KS 16 ?1.6.20. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Wed Jun 25 13:55:53 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:55:53 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Michael Everson : > At 12:45 +0100 2008-06-25, Christian Semmens wrote: > >At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think this may be taking > >things a bit too far. I think everyone would be happy with 'deth' or > >'dyth' without recourse to diacritics at all. I strongly suspect that > >no one will actually write them once they become fluent enough anyway. > >Deith still looks horrible to me (as does chei, rei etc..), and I've > >tried to like it, really I have. > > > >Is it really such a huge problem? > > It is. It is a problem for readers of texts > written in the other dialect. The brief was to be > phonetic. The SWF doesn't give learners enough > information. > > Take a word, . A learner sees it. Is this a > / word? Or is it a word? What > about bes, des, fes, ges, hes, les, mes, nes, > ses, tes, or ves? (I'm sure some of these are not > attested; I just made a list.) > > If we write b?s/b?s, the learner who encounters > pes will know it's not got a *pys form. > > Making this distinction is good orthography design. But it is necessary for the othography to bear the entire burden of these distinctions? For one thing, learners are routinely taught exceptions, and if the list of bys/bes words is short, they can simply learn them. For another, information of this kind really belongs in the lexicon, not in the spelling. Steve From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:57:54 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:57:54 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> No, here I disagree with you, because keeping encourages the pronunciation /je:T/. My point is that conscientious Cornish users should use <'eth>, as in the SWF, even if they would not normally use <'Edhewon> or other cases of yod-dropping. Actually, if I had my druthers, we would just write as Tregear did. The odd case of metathesis should not unduly shock anybody. ~~Owen 2008/6/25 Michael Everson : > At 15:31 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >>(The same is not true, by the way, of 'eth, because we ONLY have >>'eyth' attested in the texts. In my opinion conscientious Cornish >>users should write 'eth passim.) > > See KS 16 ?1.4.3 Note 1: > > NOTE 1: Traditional Cornish normally uses the > word for 'language', although > 'language' is used three times in Tregear, which > was not available to Nance when he reconstructed > . We recommend distinguishing [e:T] > 'eight, vapour', [e:T] 'goest, went' and > [e:T], [je:T] 'language'. > > There are lots of people who do say [je:T]; I > don't have a problem keeping the spelling > and saying that it is an exception with two > pronunciations, [e:T] and [je:T]. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 13:59:09 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:59:09 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Can you write in Icelandic on a Mac? That has y-acute. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jon Mills" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:26 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system > Michael, > Why can't Macs read and write diacritics (other than diaresis) above ? > I would have thought in this day of Unicode fonts .... If what you say is > true, then it seems to me a good reason for using a PC. > Jon > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Eddie Climo" >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system >> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:29:12 +0100 >> >> >> On 24 Jun 2008, at 23:01, Michael Everson wrote: >> >> > At 22:55 +0100 2008-06-24, A. J. Trim wrote: >> >> Yes, I would prefer to use an acute accent, rather than using a >> >> dieresis, >> >> providing the acute accent is not going to be used for something >> >> else. >> >> I use a Windows PC, and all I have to do is to press the AltGr >> >> button whilst >> >> typing my vowel. >> > >> > It won't work on a Macintosh on y. >> > >> >> This works for easily. I have made it work for (by re- mapping >> >> my >> >> keyboard using the freely available Microsoft Keyboard Layout >> >> Creator) but >> >> some people would have difficulty with this. >> > >> > Indeed, your y-acute was converted to a double-dagger here on my >> > Macintosh. >> >> Rather than a double-dagger, I got a y-acute on *my* Macintosh, but >> I've no idea what the keyboard shortcut would be for me to type in >> that character-diacritic combination. >> >> Eddie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From Kernuack at aol.com Wed Jun 25 14:00:39 2008 From: Kernuack at aol.com (Kernuack at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:00:39 EDT Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: We modernists really quite enjoy using diacritics! But can someone enlighten me please. I heard that the reason that the KKs don't use diacritics is because Ken George didn't know how to do them on typewriter/computer all those years ago. Can that possibly be true.Surely not. Mina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 14:05:36 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:05:36 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 08:55 -0400 2008-06-25, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > > Making this distinction is good orthography design. > >But it is necessary for the othography to bear >the entire burden of these distinctions? I believe so. >For one thing, learners are routinely taught >exceptions, and if the list of bys/bes words is >short, they can simply learn them. The list isn't short. There are other lists which are short. This isn't one of them. >For another, information of this kind really >belongs in the lexicon, not in the spelling. As I said, we have mabm/mamm because pre-occluders want to write pre-occlusion and non-pre-occluders don't, and as orthography designers we wanted to make sure that speakers of one dialect would recognize texts written by speakers of the other dialect. Similarly, we have b?s/b?s because some people say and want to write [bi:z] and some say and want to write [be:z]. But here we have an additional problem: there are [e:z] words which are not part of the alternating class, which everyone pronounces the same. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 14:07:18 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:07:18 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 15:57 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >No, here I disagree with you, because keeping encourages the >pronunciation /je:T/. I don't think it's a harmful pronunciation. >My point is that conscientious Cornish users should use <'eth>, as >in the SWF, even if they would not normally use <'Edhewon> or other >cases of yod-dropping. I despise the initial apostrophe which is guaranteed to end up pointing the wrong direction. >Actually, if I had my druthers, we would just write as Tregear >did. The odd case of metathesis should not unduly shock anybody. That would be [@iT] however in KS and SWF orthography. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 14:08:18 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:08:18 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 13:59 +0100 2008-06-25, A. J. Trim wrote: >Can you write in Icelandic on a Mac? >That has y-acute. Icelanders had a special Apple code page of their own for many years, and they had to get special fonts. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 14:09:34 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:09:34 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 09:00 -0400 2008-06-25, Kernuack at aol.com wrote: >We modernists really quite enjoy using diacritics! But can someone >enlighten me please. I heard that the reason that the KKs don't use >diacritics is because Ken George didn't know how to do them on >typewriter/computer all those years ago. Can that possibly be >true.Surely not. I'll have to look this up. I wonder if he wrote about it specifically. Interestingly, as Nicholas has pointed out, George dislikes English borrowings because they are English. One would expect him to adore diacritics because they are non-English! -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:18:12 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:18:12 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250618n22a3eebtf65a0ece14abad4c@mail.gmail.com> Mac users are also, as a rule, more tech-savvy people than PC users. They're a lot more likely to see a problem like this as something fixable, then figure out how to fix it. Michael's already admitted he'll have no problem with y-acute in Quark, so that settles the Mac typesetter's dilemma. And besides Unicode, what about PDFs, which will look the same on any machine? What about internet browsers that just select a font appropriate to the characters used on a web page? I don't think y-acute is an unsolvable problem. Cross-linguistically, the acute is also the better choice of accent. If we must have accents for these words at all. Like Dan, I don't really see what the problem is with simply having dedh and dydh. ~~Owen 2008/6/25 Jon Mills : > Michael, > Why can't Macs read and write diacritics (other than diaresis) above ? I would have thought in > this day of Unicode fonts .... If what you say is true, then it seems to me a good reason for using > a PC. > Jon From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:26:39 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:26:39 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250626o45fbfaf8y1d153ac851d9ace2@mail.gmail.com> On a more philosophical basis, are we studiously trying to avoid departing from the SWF in concept, or fixing it where it made the wrong decision on political grounds? If the former, then I imagine we must also keep the main form variants including and . We can't get rid of them, they're in the SWF. If the latter, then we can say, no, and were the wrong call and we're not having them. Ditching (or or ) was the wrong call and we're not having it either. Okay, I'm phrasing this in a more provocative manner than I really mean it to be; however, we will need to decide this question sooner or later. Are we trying to fix the problems in the concept of the SWF, or only monkey with the implementation of that concept? Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:29:51 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:29:51 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625121548.14925164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625121548.14925164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <0BAEDCDA-B81C-4B59-A3CF-165A272E5DFA@gmail.com> Thank you for that. He uses the spelling three times in a short text. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 13:15, Jon Mills wrote: > To be precise, Jooan Chei a Horr (BM Add. MS 28,554: ff.128-9) is in > John Boson's hand. So John Boson's spelling. > Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nicholas williams" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:57:07 +0100 > > I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: > > Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horr > ha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei Teeack > Komeer weeth na Raw?y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da > Bennen Younk. > > Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. > In MC the word is spelt ky. > Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< > KK) occurs once: > > citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war > an fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. > > Nicholas > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com! > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:31:10 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:31:10 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> Message-ID: Of course. The scribes write chy and ky (and ty 'thou', why 'you' and ny 'we'). Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 13:17, Christian Semmens wrote: > Its purely an aesthetic thing with me. I like chi and ki even less > than I like chei and kei. I always preferred chy, ky. > > Christian From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:34:27 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:34:27 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: moghheys, I suspect, does not contain /x:/ but /x-h/ in juncture, i.e. in different syllables: mox-'he:z. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 13:34, Owen Cook wrote: > Aha! Good to know. But we don't need to correct to , since > the SWF uses rather than here anyway. > > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/24 nicholas williams : >> >> I can find no examples of . occurs in moghheys >> 'increased' and >> yaghheys 'healed'. >> on the other hand is quite well attested in such forms as >> gottha past >> subj. of coth 'ought' and perfettha, the comparative of >> perfeth 'perfect'. >> Nicholas > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:35:43 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:35:43 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625123521.66E8A11581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080625123521.66E8A11581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <8FA79118-EA12-4A04-B39B-DB2863E81B57@gmail.com> The want to avoid diacritics because English is without them. Unfortunately diacritics are necessary to disambiguate. Practised speakers can avoid them. For learners things are much harder. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 13:35, Jon Mills wrote: > Context tells you which type of word you have. It was not a problem > for the readers/writers of the Middle Cornish texts. I don't find it > a problem when I read the Middle Cornish texts. Of course, what many > language learners would like is a single written form. However the > Cornish language community is not yet ready for a single written > form and so we have the Standard Written Form with variants. From > talking to various people at the Tremough conferences, it seems > evident to me that the overwhelming majority of Cornish speakers and > learners would prefer to eschew diacritics altogether. > Jon > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michael Everson" >> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical >> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:03:15 +0100 >> >> >> At 12:45 +0100 2008-06-25, Christian Semmens wrote: >>> At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think this may be >>> taking >>> things a bit too far. I think everyone would be happy with 'deth' or >>> 'dyth' without recourse to diacritics at all. I strongly suspect >>> that >>> no one will actually write them once they become fluent enough >>> anyway. >>> Deith still looks horrible to me (as does chei, rei etc..), and I've >>> tried to like it, really I have. >>> >>> Is it really such a huge problem? >> >> It is. It is a problem for readers of texts >> written in the other dialect. The brief was to be >> phonetic. The SWF doesn't give learners enough >> information. >> >> Take a word, . A learner sees it. Is this a >> / word? Or is it a word? What >> about bes, des, fes, ges, hes, les, mes, nes, >> ses, tes, or ves? (I'm sure some of these are not >> attested; I just made a list.) >> >> If we write b?s/b?s, the learner who encounters >> pes will know it's not got a *pys form. >> >> Making this distinction is good orthography design. >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > >> > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent > > > -- > Be Yourself @ mail.com! > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:33:58 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:33:58 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system Message-ID: 2008/6/24 Michael Everson rug scrifa: > It's not a trick. It's true. But by this argument, and (and also , which can be /{/ or /E/) are exactly not what and are meant to be in the newest KS. The German umlaut characters are umbrella graphs. and alternate with each other. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:42:28 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:42:28 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/25 Michael Everson rug scrifa: > At 15:57 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >>My point is that conscientious Cornish users should use <'eth>, as >>in the SWF, even if they would not normally use <'Edhewon> or other >>cases of yod-dropping. > > I despise the initial apostrophe which is guaranteed to end up > pointing the wrong direction. This is the fault of ignorant typers. I really don't think we can do away with a better spelling just because many people don't know how to undo, or turn off, Microsoft Word's ill-named smart quotes. It's an easy fix. Anyway, 'eth is not a word you have to use in every sentence, unlike for example 'n in Afrikaans. >>Actually, if I had my druthers, we would just write as Tregear >>did. The odd case of metathesis should not unduly shock anybody. > > That would be [@iT] however in KS and SWF orthography. How can we be sure this isn't how Tregear pronounced it? The word never appears in Lhuyd. As I said before, the odd case of metathesis should not unduly shock anybody. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:45:03 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:45:03 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250551l1def208g1cabd903bf4a4a37@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250551l1def208g1cabd903bf4a4a37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A small point, Owen. *Tiogyon in SWF is incorrect. The plural is tiogou in OCV and tyowgow in BK: Bewnans moy suer ew the dus fuer bos tyowgow BK 762-64. The SWF form is tiogow as is clear from this entry in Dan's dictionary: tiek ['ti:?k] (m.), tiogow [tI'OgOu] (pl.), farmer, householder. Nicholas ----------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:47:23 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:47:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01617279-3FB4-4E7B-9498-6F821AFC74A6@gmail.com> Si non ? vero, ? ben trovato. IActually in his PSRC he actually mentions avoiding diacritics as a matter of policy. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 14:00, Kernuack at aol.com wrote: > We modernists really quite enjoy using diacritics! But can someone > enlighten me please. I heard that the reason that the KKs don't use > diacritics is because Ken George didn't know how to do them on > typewriter/computer all those years ago. Can that possibly be > true.Surely not. Mina > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:48:43 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:48:43 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com> The bys/bes words are very many indeed and absolutely central to the lexicon of the language. Think of dres 'over' but dres/drys 'brought', res 'necessity' but res/ rys 'given'. Nicholas ----------- On 25 Jun 2008, at 14:05, Michael Everson wrote: > At 08:55 -0400 2008-06-25, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > >>> Making this distinction is good orthography design. >> >> But it is necessary for the othography to bear >> the entire burden of these distinctions? > > I believe so. > >> For one thing, learners are routinely taught >> exceptions, and if the list of bys/bes words is >> short, they can simply learn them. > > The list isn't short. There are other lists which > are short. This isn't one of them. > >> For another, information of this kind really >> belongs in the lexicon, not in the spelling. > > As I said, we have mabm/mamm because > pre-occluders want to write pre-occlusion and > non-pre-occluders don't, and as orthography > designers we wanted to make sure that speakers of > one dialect would recognize texts written by > speakers of the other dialect. > > Similarly, we have b?s/b?s because some people > say and want to write [bi:z] and some say and > want to write [be:z]. But here we have an > additional problem: there are [e:z] words which > are not part of the alternating class, which > everyone pronounces the same. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 14:47:25 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:47:25 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250629m318c3b21o2d96165dcf69f334@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240926u1a499c55g18f4b99839536597@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806241132o502db83am9e6d8afa52e658df@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250629m318c3b21o2d96165dcf69f334@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 16:29 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >2008/6/24 Michael Everson rug scrifa: >> It's not a trick. It's true. > >But by this argument, and (and also , which can be /{/ or >/E/) are exactly not what and are meant to be in the newest >KS. The German umlaut characters are umbrella graphs. and >alternate with each other. I didn't say it was a perfect analogy. Yes, the German umlaut characters are umbrella graphs. We used to have an umbrella graph for the b?s/b?s words. When we had that, we didn't have a problem with the res-class or the bys-class words. When we lost the umbrella graph we re-acquited those problems. But my analogy is not all that bad either. is an umbrella graph: may be read [be:z] or [bi:z] depending on the reader's dialect. And likewise, is an umbrella graph: may be read [bi:z] or [be:z] depending on the reader's dialect. That the choice of one or the other is an alternation up to the writer is just a bit of redundancy, but we inherited ~ that from the SWF. The diaeresis does not have an "inherent meaning" that restricts it in any way from the solution proposed. We can use it for whatever we want. We are using grave for anomalous short vowels (and <`y> is unavailable in Mac Roman and Windows 1252 fonts anyway). We are using circumflex for anomalous long vowels (and <^y> is unavailable in Mac Roman and Windows 1252 fonts anyway). Acute is not advantageous (since is unavailable in Mac Roman fonts) -- I don't see a better solution. By the way, there are other y-letters in Unicode. Vietnamese has a y-tilde and y-with-dot-below. There is a y-with-dot-above, just like Lhuyd used, and an e-with-dot-above used in Lithuanian. Cool! Wouldn't that be splendidly authentic! But I don't recommend these either, because they will not be found in tens of thousands of Mac Roman or Windows 1252 fonts. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 14:55:11 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:55:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250618n22a3eebtf65a0ece14abad4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250618n22a3eebtf65a0ece14abad4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 16:18 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >Mac users are also, as a rule, more tech-savvy people than PC users. Entirely untrue. My father, for instance, uses a Macintosh, and thank goodness, because it's easy to use. :o) >They're a lot more likely to see a problem like >this as something fixable, then figure out how >to fix it. Michael's already admitted he'll have >no problem with y-acute in Quark, so that >settles the Mac typesetter's dilemma. It most certainly does NOT. *I* can add new glyphs to a font if I need them. Most people cannot. I'll say it again: I'm not willing to saddle Cornish users with the situation Welsh users are in. The last thing we need is somebody turning round and saying "Damn, I can't use my favourite fonts because they don't have the right characters!" And I don't believe that a convincing argument that and are "better" than and has been made. The technical disadvantage about not being in fonts is real, and won't ever go away. If there are technical disadvantages about typing on some platforms, that *is* something that we *can* address, making software freely available on http://kernowek.net. The argument "I think diaeresis is unsightly" is, as Nicholas pointed out, really not good enough as arguments go. I don't happen to think that / would "look better". (Indeed, I might be tempted to use the acute to mark anomalous stress in a dictionary; it would be more convenient than the middle dot.) >And besides Unicode, what about PDFs, which will look the same on any >machine? What about internet browsers that just select a font >appropriate to the characters used on a web page? > >I don't think y-acute is an unsolvable problem. Cross-linguistically, >the acute is also the better choice of accent. Why? In Irish it means "long vowel" as opposed to "short vowel". In Spanish it means "vowel with anomalous stress". In Navajo it marks tone. In some languages it indicates palatalization or affrication of consonants. "Cross-linguistically" it can mean pretty much anything. >If we must have accents >for these words at all. Like Dan, I don't really see what the problem >is with simply having dedh and dydh. Because there are words in -edh which have alternating pronunciations in -ydh and there are words which do not have such an alternation. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 15:00:39 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:00:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] bys Message-ID: Bys "world" has a long vowel, so the should be an . This gives bis and bes as the correct choice. Both could be marked with an acute accent if desired to show that there is an alternative spelling/pronunciation: b?s/b?s. Bys "until" has a short vowel so the should be a . Should the be ? Similarly, with d?dh/d?dh, pr?s/pr?s. There is no need for a diacritic to be on a . We are just marking the long vowels (now spelt correctly) to show that they have an alternative spelling, and not marking the long vowels that have just one spelling. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 15:01:44 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:01:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250626o45fbfaf8y1d153ac851d9ace2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250626o45fbfaf8y1d153ac851d9ace2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 16:26 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >On a more philosophical basis, are we studiously trying to avoid >departing from the SWF in concept, or fixing it where it made the >wrong decision on political grounds? I'd just as soon not deviate where not necessary. >If the former, then I imagine we must also keep the main form variants >including and . We can't get rid of them, they're in the SWF. I don't believe we will get anywhere proscribing them -- evidently some people feel as strongly about them as we do about traditional graphs. We can say (perhaps in a note) that KS permits their use, that we as editors discourage them (and why). And then we won't use them. >If the latter, then we can say, no, and were the wrong call >and we're not having them. Ditching (or or ) was the >wrong call and we're not having it either. That seems a lot more like ditching the SWF entirely. The KK contingent really hated and as I said they nearly won everywhere (with as an umbrella graph for [i:]~[e:]. We fought VERY hard to gain , and won it. It'd be churlish to dump bys/bes for beis at this point. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 15:02:17 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:02:17 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 14:34 +0100 2008-06-25, nicholas williams wrote: >moghheys, I suspect, does not contain /x:/ but /x-h/ in juncture, i.e. >in different syllables: mox-'he:z. Agreed. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Wed Jun 25 15:07:25 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:07:25 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system Message-ID: <20080625140725.C4EE432675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> I suggested that in the case of 'provia', [-i@] is an example of two vowels because the tonic stress falls on one of the vowels only, [-i-]. In this analysis 'provia' has 3 syllables. ||pro | vi | a || with the 2nd syllable carrying the stress. One might posit a linking-yod [_j] between the [i] and [@]: [prQ"vi_j@]. 'Tiek' and 'tiogyon' illustrate the principle because of the stress shift: ["ti_j at k], [tI"_jQgj at n]. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Owen Cook" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The quantity system > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:51:43 +0300 > > > 2008/6/25 Jon Mills : > > Yes, this something that has been bothering me. If the word 'provia' carries > > tonic stress on [-i-] then the [-i@] is an example of two vowels with hiatus > > as you describe. This contrasts with 'profya' that ends with a rising > > diphthong [j@]. Rial/ryal contains a diphthong [-i at -]. > > Jon > > No, you would have to prove that /i@/ as a diphthong is somehow > different from /i.@/ as two vowels on hiatus. I strongly doubt this. > /i/ is frequently followed by another vowel on hiatus -- 'provia' is > one example, 'tiogyon' is another. In the SWF as in KS, always > represents a vowel. The consonant /j/ is always . So for /i.@/ > and for /ja/ is totally regular and makes good sense. And as > Michael pointed out, both types of spelling are attested in the texts. > Personally I wouldn't analyze 'profya' as having a rising diphthong > anyway. Would you say 'yar' has a rising diphthong? Why postulate a > separate rising diphthong or triphthong for /ju/, /jo/, /ja/, /je/, > /jQ/, /jow/ when we can more economically say that these are a single > consonant, /j/, followed by the vowels and diphthongs we already know? > > Oll an gwelha, > ~~Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 15:08:31 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:08:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> Message-ID: I second that. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Semmens" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:17 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Its purely an aesthetic thing with me. I like chi and ki even less > than I like chei and kei. I always preferred chy, ky. > > Christian > > 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : >> I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: >> Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horr >> ha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei Teeack >> Komeer weeth na Raw'y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da >> Bennen >> Younk. >> Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. In MC >> the word is spelt ky. >> Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< KK) >> occurs >> once: >> citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war an >> fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. >> Nicholas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 15:13:04 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:13:04 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] bys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 15:00 +0100 2008-06-25, A. J. Trim wrote: >Bys "world" has a long vowel, so the should be an . >This gives bis and bes as the correct choice. >Both could be marked with an acute accent if >desired to show that there is an alternative >spelling/pronunciation: b?s/b?s. That doesn't fix the problem. It just shifts the problem from the -class words to the -class words (mis 'month' [mi:z] has no *[me:z] form). >Bys "until" has a short vowel so the should >be a . Should the be ? No, it's [bIz]. >Similarly, with d?dh/d?dh, pr?s/pr?s. I think that's too great a shift from the SWF. It would be a very great change for all KK and UC/UCR users. It's too much. >There is no need for a diacritic to be on a . >We are just marking the long vowels (now spelt >correctly) to show that they have an alternative >spelling, and not marking the long vowels that >have just one spelling. Nice lateral thinking, but I don't believe we can go this far. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 15:33:17 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:33:17 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at><53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at><53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is not a serious suggestion: You could mark the in yeth, perhaps with a dieresis to show that it has an alternative pronunciation ... in this case silent: ?eth/'eth. The apostrophe in 'eth shows that there may be a missing letter in the alternative dialect. It would be helpful to learners and be more precise. How about marking tavas to show that there is an alternative word: ^tavas/^yeth. It is difficult to know where to stop with this sort of thing. It's all useful but not nice to write or to look at, and it's not authentic. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:37 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > At 15:31 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >>(The same is not true, by the way, of 'eth, because we ONLY have >>'eyth' attested in the texts. In my opinion conscientious Cornish >>users should write 'eth passim.) > > See KS 16 ?1.4.3 Note 1: > > NOTE 1: Traditional Cornish normally uses the > word for 'language', although > 'language' is used three times in Tregear, which > was not available to Nance when he reconstructed > . We recommend distinguishing [e:T] > 'eight, vapour', [e:T] 'goest, went' and > [e:T], [je:T] 'language'. > > There are lots of people who do say [je:T]; I > don't have a problem keeping the spelling > and saying that it is an exception with two > pronunciations, [e:T] and [je:T]. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Wed Jun 25 15:55:47 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:55:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at><53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48625C73.8010701@freenet.co.uk> I wonder if we are not delving a bit too deeply. Final -gh is fairly constant throughout the history of written Cornish (including Late Cornish where, once again, Keigwin - the only real linguistic scholar of that period of Cornish - is being discarded). Medial -gh- faded out in the Middle Cornish and, by the 16th century, -h- had become the norm. It's not a 20th/21st century concept but historically Cornish. So, margh, "horse" but marhek, "horseman". I think we need to remember that our aim is to improve upon the SWF, ironing out its faults, rather than trying to form yet another orthography. The SWF with traditional graphs is pretty near to KS (which, in my view, is the best orthography yet for the revived language) and perhaps we need to be looking at it from that perspective. We need to keep our eyes on the ball, rather than the crowd (former footballer's viewpoint). Craig A. J. Trim wrote: > This is not a serious suggestion: > > You could mark the in yeth, perhaps with a dieresis to show that it has > an alternative pronunciation ... in this case silent: ?eth/'eth. > The apostrophe in 'eth shows that there may be a missing letter in the > alternative dialect. > It would be helpful to learners and be more precise. > > How about marking tavas to show that there is an alternative word: > ^tavas/^yeth. > > It is difficult to know where to stop with this sort of thing. > It's all useful but not nice to write or to look at, and it's not authentic. > > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Everson" > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:37 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > > >> At 15:31 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >> >> >>> (The same is not true, by the way, of 'eth, because we ONLY have >>> 'eyth' attested in the texts. In my opinion conscientious Cornish >>> users should write 'eth passim.) >>> >> See KS 16 ?1.4.3 Note 1: >> >> NOTE 1: Traditional Cornish normally uses the >> word for 'language', although >> 'language' is used three times in Tregear, which >> was not available to Nance when he reconstructed >> . We recommend distinguishing [e:T] >> 'eight, vapour', [e:T] 'goest, went' and >> [e:T], [je:T] 'language'. >> >> There are lots of people who do say [je:T]; I >> don't have a problem keeping the spelling >> and saying that it is an exception with two >> pronunciations, [e:T] and [je:T]. >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 15:50:20 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:50:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The attached PDF document is what I received from Steve. Note the square boxes in the line, about eighteen up from the bottom. I assume that these are caused by diacritical marks not transmitting through the computer systems correctly. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:55 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" ; "Michael Everson" Cc: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Quoting Michael Everson : > >> At 12:45 +0100 2008-06-25, Christian Semmens wrote: >> >At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, I think this may be taking >> >things a bit too far. I think everyone would be happy with 'deth' or >> >'dyth' without recourse to diacritics at all. I strongly suspect that >> >no one will actually write them once they become fluent enough anyway. >> >Deith still looks horrible to me (as does chei, rei etc..), and I've >> >tried to like it, really I have. >> > >> >Is it really such a huge problem? >> >> It is. It is a problem for readers of texts >> written in the other dialect. The brief was to be >> phonetic. The SWF doesn't give learners enough >> information. >> >> Take a word, . A learner sees it. Is this a >> / word? Or is it a word? What >> about bes, des, fes, ges, hes, les, mes, nes, >> ses, tes, or ves? (I'm sure some of these are not >> attested; I just made a list.) >> >> If we write b?s/b?s, the learner who encounters >> pes will know it's not got a *pys form. >> >> Making this distinction is good orthography design. > > But it is necessary for the othography to bear the entire burden of these > distinctions? For one thing, learners are routinely taught exceptions, > and if > the list of bys/bes words is short, they can simply learn them. For > another, > information of this kind really belongs in the lexicon, not in the > spelling. > > Steve > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlmailhtml_{729EB7E8-7044-459A-85E6-640DF54D8D99}mid___00000207.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 68449 bytes Desc: not available URL: From teli7777 at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 16:51:31 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:51:31 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] Use of diacritics In-Reply-To: References: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> Message-ID: <48626983.1080200@gmail.com> Michael is right about the y-diaeresis. There is no reason that PC users should have a problem with y-diaeresis. All you have to do is hold down the alt key and type 0255 on the numeric keypad. If that's too complicated MSWord allows you to assign keystrokes in the insert function and there are even free add ons such as Uniqoder which make it even easier. As far as the new portable phones etc. there is no way to provide for the limitations of every new device. The only problem I see with a diaeresis is that some people can't abide diacritics and some devices don't support them. I would imagine that in private communications the diacritics would be left off anyway. Adding the diacritic to disambiguate forms will make things much easier for the learner. Terry Corbett From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 17:06:20 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:06:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Use of diacritics In-Reply-To: <48626983.1080200@gmail.com> References: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> <48626983.1080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 09:51 -0600 2008-06-25, Terry wrote: >The only problem I see with a diaeresis is that some people can't >abide diacritics and some devices don't support them. I would >imagine that in private communications the diacritics would be left >off anyway. That will be a matter for individuals. I will use them in my publishing, and in documentation and teaching materials we will make it clear that using them is better than not using them. "You can leave them off, if you must, but that makes your writing less precise and less accurate." >Adding the diacritic to disambiguate forms will make things much >easier for the learner. I wish we had won , but since we haven't, and since there was a recognition in the AGH that publishers could use diacritics (after all, Nance's and Williams' dictionaries do) I think we are on stable ground here. I'm sorry some people think that the acute would be more appropriate than the diaeresis. The balance tips for the diaeresis in terms of universality and practicality, in my judgement, at least. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Wed Jun 25 17:45:46 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:45:46 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Use of diacritics In-Reply-To: <48626983.1080200@gmail.com> References: <200806250852.m5P8q2r0010282@onewbx2p.one.at> <48626983.1080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4862763A.30705@orange.fr> Agree. In Breton we use alies. With MSWord, I've assigned to <$> and to . That's easy for Europeans of the UE, for sure, as we don't need <$> and so often ;-) . Some don't bother and write when they type on modern devices. Stefan Skrivet eo bet gant Terry: > Michael is right about the y-diaeresis. There is no reason that PC users > should have a problem with y-diaeresis. All you have to do is hold down > the alt key and type 0255 on the numeric keypad. If that's too > complicated MSWord allows you to assign keystrokes in the insert > function and there are even free add ons such as Uniqoder which make it > even easier. As far as the new portable phones etc. there is no way to > provide for the limitations of every new device. The only problem I see > with a diaeresis is that some people can't abide diacritics and some > devices don't support them. I would imagine that in private > communications the diacritics would be left off anyway. > > Adding the diacritic to disambiguate forms will make things much easier > for the learner. > > Terry Corbett > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 17:55:39 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:55:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I am not sure eyth is metathesis. Initial ye- is often reduced to e- in ezow 'Jew', ehaz 'health', for example. I take eyth to be for [e:T] where ey = e: and initial [j] is lost. Incidentally the shift /je > e/ in initial position shows that Caradar's Yesu (adopted by KK in their NT) cannot be right. If it had been correct the name Yesu would sometimes appear as *Esu which it never does. The name Jesu in MC is like Maria, Jacob, Jerusalem, Jowan and Loundres and is borrowed from MFrench via Breton. Nicholas ----------- From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 18:52:13 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:52:13 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> I think so too Nicholas, but can we be sure of this? Can we actually exclude the possibility of /ejT/? ~~Owen 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : > I am not sure eyth is metathesis. Initial ye- is often reduced to e- > in ezow 'Jew', ehaz 'health', for example. > I take eyth to be for [e:T] where ey = e: and initial [j] is lost. > Incidentally the shift /je > e/ in initial position shows that > Caradar's Yesu (adopted by KK in their NT) > cannot be right. If it had been correct the name Yesu would sometimes > appear as *Esu which it never does. > > The name Jesu in MC is like Maria, Jacob, Jerusalem, Jowan and > Loundres and is borrowed from MFrench via Breton. > > Nicholas From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 18:54:59 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:54:59 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080625093026.ECA26BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250551l1def208g1cabd903bf4a4a37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806251054u46fe4ee7ga82a0266a4b4512c@mail.gmail.com> Goodness me, yes. As soon as I wrote that, I thought to myself, 'There's something funny about tiogyon, isn't there; now what was it?' Good -- I stand corrected, tiogow. Thank you! ~~Owen 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : > A small point, Owen. > *Tiogyon in SWF is incorrect. The plural is tiogou in OCV and tyowgow in BK: > Bewnans moy suer ew the dus fuer bos tyowgow BK 762-64. > The SWF form is tiogow as is clear from this entry in Dan's dictionary: > tiek ['ti:?k] (m.), tiogow [tI'OgOu] (pl.), farmer, householder. > Nicholas From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 19:04:22 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:04:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 20:52 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >I think so too Nicholas, but can we be sure of this? Can we actually >exclude the possibility of /ejT/? Do we get eyhaz? -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:12:29 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:12:29 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/25 nicholas williams rug scrifa: > The bys/bes words are very many indeed and absolutely central to the > lexicon of the language. > Think of dres 'over' but dres/drys 'brought', res 'necessity' but res/ > rys 'given'. > Nicholas By the same token, it's an awful lot of words to be using a diacritic with. Now, I firmly believe diacritics should be used when they're really necessary, for example to mark length anomalies or distinguish certain key homographs, for example a 'of' and ? 'goes'. But are they really necessary here? Michael agrees that an umbrella graph would be better. An umbrella graph, be it as in KS16, or as somebody suggested (was it Andrew?), or , would save us from having to use diacritics across the board in this very large set of words. Why play into the hands of the diacriticophobes if we don't have to? If an umbrella graph were out of the question, then a diacritic will probably become necessary on the to distinguish length. (Probably because vocalic is equivalent to for now, but we haven't really decided how we're going to deal with and .) Michael argues that the same diacritic must be used on the to aid recognition. If we accept this idea, then really we ought to be using the right diacritic. Nicholas says that to him, an acute indicates either stress or length. Good! The vowel in both d?dh and pr?s is both stressed and long. To me, a diaeresis indicates a hiatus or umlaut or centralization. The vowels in these words are none of those. To argue that y-acute is out of the question because the minority of Mac users who are technologically inept will find it awkward, seems rather a bizarre constraint. Like Dan, I'd prefer not to work with our hands tied like this. In the end, of course, we want a finished product that will be useable by the greatest number of people in the greatest number of media. But plenty of languages use a y-acute and they've figured out how to work around this difficulty. Heck, Turkmen in its recent Romanization specifically avoided special characters that aren't widely supported, like s-cedilla or dotless i. And yes, they use y-acute. In preference to y-diaeresis. I also don't see why Michael wants to nix Andrew's suggestion of and from the start, when we know that sorting out and is a big part of what we want to decide here and we haven't yet begun to decide how to do it. It may be that in these words ends up being a relatively painless solution. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:31:55 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:31:55 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250626o45fbfaf8y1d153ac851d9ace2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806251131w10a93b98ra6db222c7cdd09f3@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/25 Michael Everson rug scrifa: > At 16:26 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >>On a more philosophical basis, are we studiously trying to avoid >>departing from the SWF in concept, or fixing it where it made the >>wrong decision on political grounds? > > I'd just as soon not deviate where not necessary. > >>If the former, then I imagine we must also keep the main form variants >>including and . We can't get rid of them, they're in the SWF. > > I don't believe we will get anywhere proscribing them -- evidently > some people feel as strongly about them as we do about traditional > graphs. We can say (perhaps in a note) that KS permits their use, > that we as editors discourage them (and why). And then we won't use > them. Yowzers! Well, if the remit of our current project is that modest, then I suppose we've got to keep the rest of the SWF's all-things-to-all-peopleness. I never thought would ever be admitted into KS. All right then Michael, let's bury the hatchet on the particular choice of diacritic. As I said before, if umbrella graphs are out, then we presumably need a diacritic for . You argue we'll need the same diacritic for . For technical reasons and are cool with everybody; I like (that's y-acute), but I'll accept that it finishes third in the pecking order. After we've decided how to sort out and more generally, then we can revisit whether it's right to use and , or and . Perhaps in the end you'll see the beauty of y-acute, but I recognize this is a long shot. There are more important things for us to be worrying about. Gorhemynadow a'n gwelha, ~~Owen PS: Privately, I'm also going to start making a list of things that the SWF should have taken a courageous stand on, and failed to. > That seems a lot more like ditching the SWF entirely. The KK > contingent really hated and as I said they nearly won > everywhere (with as an umbrella graph for [i:]~[e:]. We fought > VERY hard to gain , and won it. It'd be churlish to dump bys/bes > for beis at this point. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Wed Jun 25 19:44:05 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:44:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486291F5.7060804@freenet.co.uk> I agree that chy, ky are far better that chi, ki, and traditional to boot. However, chei and kei are attested and are traditional Cornish spellings. Chei is found in several LC texts, whilst place names include Pedn Kei (near Gurnard's Head). ei anglicised to ie is found in both places that are called Carnkie. Chy in place names is usually the first, unstressed element and in pronunciation becomes simply ch', so Chysauster (here comes the proper pronunciation of this heavily mispronounced name) is ch'ZOYster. I can only assume that chi was selected as the SWF main form spelling because, to apply the LC variant would only involve the insertion of one letter, rather than substitute ei for y. Strangely, the use of chi does not bother me nearly as greatly as perhaps it should, now that I've applied it to several place names to see how it works. Craig A. J. Trim wrote: > I second that. > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Christian Semmens" > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:17 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > > >> Its purely an aesthetic thing with me. I like chi and ki even less >> than I like chei and kei. I always preferred chy, ky. >> >> Christian >> >> 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : >> >>> I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: >>> Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horr >>> ha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei Teeack >>> Komeer weeth na Raw'y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da >>> Bennen >>> Younk. >>> Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. In MC >>> the word is spelt ky. >>> Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< KK) >>> occurs >>> once: >>> citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war an >>> fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. >>> Nicholas >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Wed Jun 25 19:45:17 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:45:17 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] The sounds of Cornish In-Reply-To: References: <86D4F875-4B52-42DD-B5F6-6F7ACE4572EC@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806231208y7234647etc80a6b2083d15ac1@mail.gmail.com> <8D0EC203-43C0-4D97-A9B8-90E9BFD71256@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250534u75337991se69560067b4ece66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4862923D.5040008@freenet.co.uk> Absolutely agreed. Craig Michael Everson wrote: > At 14:34 +0100 2008-06-25, nicholas williams wrote: > >> moghheys, I suspect, does not contain /x:/ but /x-h/ in juncture, i.e. >> in different syllables: mox-'he:z. >> > > Agreed. > From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:03:01 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:03:01 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We cannot be sure. Can you think of any parallel? Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 18:52, Owen Cook wrote: > I think so too Nicholas, but can we be sure of this? Can we actually > exclude the possibility of /ejT/? > > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : >> I am not sure eyth is metathesis. Initial ye- is often reduced to e- >> in ezow 'Jew', ehaz 'health', for example. >> I take eyth to be for [e:T] where ey = e: and initial [j] is lost. >> Incidentally the shift /je > e/ in initial position shows that >> Caradar's Yesu (adopted by KK in their NT) >> cannot be right. If it had been correct the name Yesu would sometimes >> appear as *Esu which it never does. >> >> The name Jesu in MC is like Maria, Jacob, Jerusalem, Jowan and >> Loundres and is borrowed from MFrench via Breton. >> >> Nicholas > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:44:17 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:44:17 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <81870E28-8494-40AC-B8AE-A0F293C1A11B@gmail.com> Never On 25 Jun 2008, at 19:04, Michael Everson wrote: > At 20:52 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >> I think so too Nicholas, but can we be sure of this? Can we actually >> exclude the possibility of /ejT/? > > Do we get eyhaz? > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 19:53:54 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:53:54 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:12 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >By the same token, it's an awful lot of words to be using a diacritic >with. It's a phonetic orthography or it's not. We can have people be able to read texts reliably when written in the other dialect, or not. >Now, I firmly believe diacritics should be used >when they're really necessary, for example to >mark length anomalies or distinguish certain key >homographs, for example a 'of' and ? 'goes'. Weve got that. For something like eight words. >But are they really necessary here? Michael >agrees that an umbrella graph would be better. Would have been better. >An umbrella graph, be it as in KS16, or > as somebody suggested (was it Andrew?), or >, would save us from having to use >diacritics across the board in this very large >set of words. Why play into the hands of the >diacriticophobes if we don't have to? Because they rejected and gave us ~. Since that causes a major ambiguity, we can get around it by marking these vowels. >If an umbrella graph were out of the question, >then a diacritic will probably become necessary >on the to distinguish length. And on the because this is a dialect issue. >(Probably because vocalic is equivalent to for now, but we haven't >really decided how we're going to deal with and .) is [I] and is [i:] in monosyllables and their derivatives. Except that the SWF is incoherent here where b?s/b?s are concerned. >Michael argues that the same diacritic must be used on the to aid >recognition. We have the same principle for pre-occlusion. We could agree no single umbrella graph for pre-occlusion, so we have locked to and (in KS) forbidden where there is no pre-occlusion. >If we accept this idea, then really we ought to >be using the right diacritic. Nicholas says that >to him, an acute indicates either stress or >length. Good! The vowel in both d?dh and pr?s is >both stressed and long. That isn't what we are marking. The vowel in and is stressed and long without any mark at all, according to the rules. What we are marking is an optional pronunciation: is [di:D] or [de:D]. is only [de:D]. >To me, a diaeresis indicates a hiatus or umlaut or centralization. And to you, what does the letter mean? Because in some langauges it means [k] and in some [s] and in some [tS] and in some [dZ] and in some [ts] and in some [?]. The diaresis has NO INHERENT MEANING. Originally (in German, where it was originally a superscript "e") it indicated a vowel shift. Indeed, that is what we have here: not just a shift, but an alternation. is [di:D] or [de:D]. is [di:D] or [de:D]. It's not exactly like the German usage. But then the German usage isn't the same as the Albanian, or the Spanish, or the French, or even the Elvish. >The vowels in these words are none of those. The acute is not the "right" diacritic, because it is not available to everybody. >To argue that y-acute is out of the question >because the minority of Mac users who are >technologically inept will find it awkward, >seems rather a bizarre constraint. That is NOT what I said. I said NOTHING about "technological ineptness". I said that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FONTS OUT THERE that people are using TODAY that don't have this letter, and we will never, ever fix them. That has nothing to do with their ineptness. It is not "awkward". It is a recipe for failure. We can do something about inputting software, making Cornish keyboard drivers available multi-platform. >Like Dan, I'd prefer not to work with our hands >tied like this. In the end, of course, we want a >finished product that will be useable by the >greatest number of people in the greatest number >of media. But plenty of languages use a y-acute >and they've figured out how to work around this >difficulty. Not so. Czech uses it but it had its own 8-bit code pages. Icelandic uses it but it had its own 8-bit code pages. Welsh uses it and it had several ad-hoc 8-bit code pages and they STILL don't have the range of fonts available to them that the Irish and Scottish and Cornish and Bretons have. You're arguing to disadvantage the Cornish by pushing them out of "standard" fontland. >Heck, Turkmen in its recent Romanization >specifically avoided special characters that >aren't widely supported, like s-cedilla or >dotless i. And yes, >they use y-acute. In preference to y-diaeresis. The Turkmen don't use Western 8-bit fonts. BUT EVERYONE IN CORNWALL DOES. We can't disenfranchise Mac users just because you think that diaeresis "means" something other than the use we want to put it to. We can't afford to alienate Mac-using people who want to use Cornish, can we? No better way than to choose letters that their fonts won't support. I'm not going to suggest that we use the Traditional letter YOGH either. It's in Unicode. We could use it. We could use Lhuyd's y-dot-above and the Lithuanian e-dot-above, if you want to restrict Cornish users only to new Unicode fonts that happen to have support for those characters. Do you want to do that? I don't. It wouldn't be fair to Cornish users, would it? I think I am right to insist that we be fair to Mac users of Cornish no less than Windows users of Cornish. >I also don't see why Michael wants to nix >Andrew's suggestion of and from the >start, when we know that sorting out and >is a big part of what we want to decide here and >we haven't yet begun to decide how to do it. It >may be that in these words ends up being a >relatively painless solution. Because we can't succeed by "fixing" the SWF by changing the spelling of bys and dydh to bis and didh. They elected to preserve the bogus [I:] here. If we put diaeresis on and we are treading lightly. If we change these to and we have gone too far. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 20:03:03 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:03:03 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <200806251037.m5PAbYRN007765@onewbx1p.one.at> <53ECCC19-0763-4630-BBC0-D6A5796CCAE9@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250531q460db8d1g405f35ce56bc8607@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250557r4d42fda4w543558db53935ab2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250642hbfe2a5bh9ece201b19627025@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251052j5813d6fep400bd7d9b397b4cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806251203i5c77c4a3h5182395305b9ce0f@mail.gmail.com> No I can't, which is why I think it's really /e:T/. In any event, <'eth> is better than . ~~Owen 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : > We cannot be sure. Can you think of any parallel? > Nicholas > On 25 Jun 2008, at 18:52, Owen Cook wrote: > >> I think so too Nicholas, but can we be sure of this? Can we actually >> exclude the possibility of /ejT/? >> >> ~~Owen From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 20:29:37 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:29:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806251131w10a93b98ra6db222c7cdd09f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250626o45fbfaf8y1d153ac851d9ace2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251131w10a93b98ra6db222c7cdd09f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:31 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >>If the former, then I imagine we must also keep the main form variants > >>including and . We can't get rid of them, they're in the SWF. > > >> I don't believe we will get anywhere proscribing them -- evidently >> some people feel as strongly about them as we do about traditional >> graphs. We can say (perhaps in a note) that KS permits their use, >> that we as editors discourage them (and why). And then we won't use >> them. > >Yowzers! Well, if the remit of our current project is that modest, It's not. There's a lot to fix. >then I suppose we've got to keep the rest of the SWF's >all-things-to-all-peopleness. I never thought would ever be >admitted into KS. It's not. It's just not being proscribed. Oddly, it's an option some people feel strongly about. In the grammar we write, it will get no more than a footnote. The same will be said about Main Form/Side Form. Options should be options, not this bizarre hierarchy the KK representatives imposed. Tactically, this is the better way to go. We shouldn't in our own grammar forbid and because that will just get people's backs up. We can say we don't encourage them, and why, and we can publish without them. I'm gambling that people will want to read our books. And they will get used to Traditional graphs. >All right then Michael, let's bury the hatchet on the particular >choice of diacritic. As I said before, if umbrella graphs are out, >then we presumably need a diacritic for . You argue we'll need >the same diacritic for . I will. >There are more important things for us to be worrying about. I reckon so. >PS: Privately, I'm also going to start making a list of things that >the SWF should have taken a courageous stand on, and failed to. Oh, Nicholas and I made a list already, and presented it to the AHG. It was pretty much ignored. Don't keep your list private, please. This is what we are here for. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 20:49:36 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:49:36 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <20080625112612.A805D1CE834@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> <6e5d3b9f0806250626o45fbfaf8y1d153ac851d9ace2@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251131w10a93b98ra6db222c7cdd09f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ED6272D-4A02-444D-B57A-A693ADE4AEDF@gmail.com> Apart from no diacritics, my main objections to SWF are 1. unstressed -ev, -av, -edh, in words like *genev, *warnav, *myternedh, etc. These are wrong. 2. the ahistorical graph in diw, piw, niwl. 3. the ahistorical graph i in stressed syllables in ni, chi, whi, ki 'dog', pri, bri. 4. the incoherence in the distribution of and outside monosyllables. Dan in his dictionary is bringing some order into this chaos. He now has nyver, lyver and ryver, for example. We really need to sort this whole question out. 5. the fact that diacritics are not part of the system 6. the "etymological" spellings in taves 'tongue', mires/meres 'look', tiek 'farmer' etc. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 20:29, Michael Everson wrote: > At 21:31 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >>>> If the former, then I imagine we must also keep the main form >>>> variants >>>> including and . We can't get rid of them, they're in the >>>> SWF. >>> >>> I don't believe we will get anywhere proscribing them -- evidently >>> some people feel as strongly about them as we do about traditional >>> graphs. We can say (perhaps in a note) that KS permits their use, >>> that we as editors discourage them (and why). And then we won't use >>> them. >> >> Yowzers! Well, if the remit of our current project is that modest, > > It's not. There's a lot to fix. > >> then I suppose we've got to keep the rest of the SWF's >> all-things-to-all-peopleness. I never thought would ever be >> admitted into KS. > > It's not. It's just not being proscribed. Oddly, it's an option some > people feel strongly about. In the grammar we write, it will get no > more than a footnote. The same will be said about Main Form/Side > Form. Options should be options, not this bizarre hierarchy the KK > representatives imposed. > > Tactically, this is the better way to go. We shouldn't in our own > grammar forbid and because that will just get people's > backs up. We can say we don't encourage them, and why, and we can > publish without them. I'm gambling that people will want to read our > books. And they will get used to Traditional graphs. > >> All right then Michael, let's bury the hatchet on the particular >> choice of diacritic. As I said before, if umbrella graphs are out, >> then we presumably need a diacritic for . You argue we'll need >> the same diacritic for . > > I will. > >> There are more important things for us to be worrying about. > > I reckon so. > >> PS: Privately, I'm also going to start making a list of things that >> the SWF should have taken a courageous stand on, and failed to. > > Oh, Nicholas and I made a list already, and presented it to the AHG. > It was pretty much ignored. Don't keep your list private, please. > This is what we are here for. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 20:56:31 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:56:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical Message-ID: All right, all right, please see my other message about burying the hatchet. I'll just make one or two points below to set the record straight. 2008/6/25 Michael Everson : > At 21:12 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >> (Probably because vocalic is equivalent to for now, but we haven't >> really decided how we're going to deal with and .) > > is [I] and is [i:] in monosyllables and their derivatives. Except > that the SWF is incoherent here where b?s/b?s are concerned. Isn't fixing incoherencies part of the point of this whole undertaking? > And to you, what does the letter mean? Because in some langauges it > means [k] and in some [s] and in some [tS] and in some [dZ] and in some [ts] > and in some [?]. Yes, and let me put this forward as an official proposition as well: For every instance where Cornish uses a dental click as a consonant phoneme, it should be written as as well. As it is done in Zulu, so let it be done everywhere. (Just joking of course.) > The diaresis has NO INHERENT MEANING. Originally (in German, where it was > originally a superscript "e") it indicated a vowel shift. Indeed, that is > what we have here: not just a shift, but an alternation. is [di:D] or > [de:D]. is [di:D] or [de:D]. It's not exactly like the German usage. > But then the German usage isn't the same as the Albanian, or the Spanish, or > the French, or even the Elvish. Of course it hasn't. No letter or diacritic has any inherent meaning. It's all conventional. So what conventions are relevant to us? Well, I would suggest, those of English, those of other Celtic languages (for example Welsh), both relevant for their proximity, and those of the main languages to which Cornish people are most likely to have had some exposure (for example French, German and Spanish). It so happens that I've been learning a bit of Luxembourgish in my spare time, so this is part of my frame of reference too. Hence my checklist (just for the sake of proving that I'm not pulling all of this out of a hat): * Hiatus: Welsh, Breton, French, Spanish (because I don't think it can be demonstrated that /w/ contrasts with /u/ in Spanish), old-fashioned American English (co?perate) * Umlaut: German * [Centralization: Luxembourgish -- relevant only to Owen] * Not used: Irish, Gaelic, Manx, English (except in borrowings like na?ve) I'm tired of going round in circles like this -- let's just agree that y-acute must take a back seat to both and , whatever we end up deciding to do about and . > Because we can't succeed by "fixing" the SWF by changing the spelling of bys > and dydh to bis and didh. They elected to preserve the bogus [I:] here. If > we put diaeresis on and we are treading lightly. If we change > these to and we have gone too far. When did we decide this? It may be that our final decision about and requires us to change words like these anyway, no? ~~Owen From everson at evertype.com Wed Jun 25 21:31:33 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:31:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 20:56 +0100 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >> is [I] and is [i:] in monosyllables and >>their derivatives. Except that the SWF is >>incoherent here where b?s/b?s are concerned. > >Isn't fixing incoherencies part of the point of this whole undertaking? Yes; the diacritics on b?s/b?s is a way of fixing that incoherence. Had it been there would have been no issue with that class of words. >>Because we can't succeed by "fixing" the SWF by >>changing the spelling of bys and dydh to bis >>and didh. They elected to preserve the bogus >>[I:] here. If we put diaeresis on and >> we are treading lightly. If we change >>these to and we have gone too far. > >When did we decide this? It may be that our >final decision about and requires us to >change words like these anyway, no? We do have decisions to make, but I think we have to take it as read that the distribution in monosyllables is fixed. For instance, dydh ~ dedhyow is now part of the SWF (as is dedh ~ dedhyow) in the form of Vocalic Alternation. I don't think that we could get away with changing this to didh ~ dedhyow since VA is already a bitter enough pill the KK users have to swallow. I think we should be conservative here. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 22:42:14 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:42:14 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF Message-ID: Nicholas Williams wrote: "Apart from no diacritics, my main objections to SWF are 1. unstressed -ev, -av, -edh, in words like *genev, *warnav, *myternedh, etc. These are wrong. 2. the ahistorical graph in diw, piw, niwl. 3. the ahistorical graph i in stressed syllables in ni, chi, whi, ki 'dog', pri, bri. 4. the incoherence in the distribution of and outside monosyllables. Dan in his dictionary is bringing some order into this chaos. He now has nyver, lyver and ryver, for example. We really need to sort this whole question out. 5. the fact that diacritics are not part of the system 6. the "etymological" spellings in taves 'tongue', mires/meres 'look', tiek 'farmer' etc. Nicholas" a) You list your objection to no diacritics, twice. I will accept diacritics if used minimally but I would rather not have to use them. b) I agree with (1). I would prefer genef, myterneth. c) I agree with (2). I would prefer dew, pew, newl. d) I agree with some of (3). I would prefer why, chy and ky. I'm not sure about ni. It may be useful to distinguish between the negative particle and "we". Should my/me be m?/m? and ty/te be t?/t?? I would also prefer ef "he" instead of ev, even if it has to be an exception to the normal rules. e) I agree with (4) but I don't want too many , and their use has to be predictable, else spelling will be hellish. f) I don't yet understand (6). No doubt I shall after it has been discussed. Should mires/meres "look" be m?res/m?res? g) I could add (7): The status of the traditional graphs must be the same as or stronger than that of the KK graphs. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajtrim at msn.com Wed Jun 25 23:20:34 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:20:34 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Further to this: I can add (8): I don't like in poos, goon, frooth, etc. I would rather have poes, goen, froeth. They just look better. I can add (9): I would like to be able to tell with more certainty how to pronounce the words that in SWF contain . For example usyes, unys, du, a-ugh, ugans, tus, frut, fug, furv, gorthuher, pub. There are more than two sounds/lengths here. I can add (10): In words where can become , we should mark the or , else use , for example. This would give kerenza for kerensa/kerenja. The suffixed pronouns sy/se and jy/je could become z?/z?. Similarly, marhasow/marhajow "markets" could become marhazow. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From: A. J. Trim Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:42 PM To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF Nicholas Williams wrote: "Apart from no diacritics, my main objections to SWF are 1. unstressed -ev, -av, -edh, in words like *genev, *warnav, *myternedh, etc. These are wrong. 2. the ahistorical graph in diw, piw, niwl. 3. the ahistorical graph i in stressed syllables in ni, chi, whi, ki 'dog', pri, bri. 4. the incoherence in the distribution of and outside monosyllables. Dan in his dictionary is bringing some order into this chaos. He now has nyver, lyver and ryver, for example. We really need to sort this whole question out. 5. the fact that diacritics are not part of the system 6. the "etymological" spellings in taves 'tongue', mires/meres 'look', tiek 'farmer' etc. Nicholas" a) You list your objection to no diacritics, twice. I will accept diacritics if used minimally but I would rather not have to use them. b) I agree with (1). I would prefer genef, myterneth. c) I agree with (2). I would prefer dew, pew, newl. d) I agree with some of (3). I would prefer why, chy and ky. I'm not sure about ni. It may be useful to distinguish between the negative particle and "we". Should my/me be m?/m? and ty/te be t?/t?? I would also prefer ef "he" instead of ev, even if it has to be an exception to the normal rules. e) I agree with (4) but I don't want too many , and their use has to be predictable, else spelling will be hellish. f) I don't yet understand (6). No doubt I shall after it has been discussed. Should mires/meres "look" be m?res/m?res? g) I could add (7): The status of the traditional graphs must be the same as or stronger than that of the KK graphs. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajtrim at msn.com Thu Jun 26 00:11:05 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:11:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vocalic Alternation is a complication. If we have it, it needs to be defendable. This will be easier if we get it right. If it's not right, then it's broken, so it should be fixed -- regardless of the route by which it came into being. If we don't repair it now, the KK-ers in 5 years' time will say that VA never really worked; let's get rid of it. If the rule is going to be that some become in monosyllables then it must also become in monosyllables -- depending on whether it is long or short if that is to be the rule for deciding whether to write or . Given that the whole thing is optional, in some cases, we might need , and . This is complicated. You might want to use a single graph to represent all three, e.g. . This would give deadh, deadhyow as the only form. The would be an umbrella for //, long or short. We could use if you must, instead of , giving d?dh, d?dhyow. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:31 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > At 20:56 +0100 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >>> is [I] and is [i:] in monosyllables and >>>their derivatives. Except that the SWF is >>>incoherent here where b?s/b?s are concerned. >> >>Isn't fixing incoherencies part of the point of this whole undertaking? > > Yes; the diacritics on b?s/b?s is a way of fixing > that incoherence. Had it been there would > have been no issue with that class of words. > >>>Because we can't succeed by "fixing" the SWF by >>>changing the spelling of bys and dydh to bis >>>and didh. They elected to preserve the bogus >>>[I:] here. If we put diaeresis on and >>> we are treading lightly. If we change >>>these to and we have gone too far. >> >>When did we decide this? It may be that our >>final decision about and requires us to >>change words like these anyway, no? > > We do have decisions to make, but I think we have > to take it as read that the distribution in > monosyllables is fixed. For instance, dydh ~ > dedhyow is now part of the SWF (as is dedh ~ > dedhyow) in the form of Vocalic Alternation. I > don't think that we could get away with changing > this to didh ~ dedhyow since VA is already a > bitter enough pill the KK users have to swallow. > > I think we should be conservative here. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From ajtrim at msn.com Thu Jun 26 00:16:06 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:16:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------- From: "A. J. Trim" Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Vocalic Alternation is a complication. > If we have it, it needs to be defendable. This will be easier if we get it > right. > If it's not right, then it's broken, so it should be fixed -- regardless > of > the route by which it came into being. > If we don't repair it now, the KK-ers in 5 years' time will say that VA > never really worked; let's get rid of it. > If the rule is going to be that some become in monosyllables then > it > must also become in monosyllables -- depending on whether it is long > or > short if that is to be the rule for deciding whether to write or . > Given that the whole thing is optional, in some cases, we might need , > and . This is complicated. > You might want to use a single graph to represent all three, e.g. . > This would give deadh, deadhyow as the only form. The would be an > umbrella for //, long or short. > We could use if you must, instead of , giving d?dh, d?dhyow. > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Everson" > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:31 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > >> At 20:56 +0100 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >> >>>> is [I] and is [i:] in monosyllables and >>>>their derivatives. Except that the SWF is >>>>incoherent here where b?s/b?s are concerned. >>> >>>Isn't fixing incoherencies part of the point of this whole undertaking? >> >> Yes; the diacritics on b?s/b?s is a way of fixing >> that incoherence. Had it been there would >> have been no issue with that class of words. >> >>>>Because we can't succeed by "fixing" the SWF by >>>>changing the spelling of bys and dydh to bis >>>>and didh. They elected to preserve the bogus >>>>[I:] here. If we put diaeresis on and >>>> we are treading lightly. If we change >>>>these to and we have gone too far. >>> >>>When did we decide this? It may be that our >>>final decision about and requires us to >>>change words like these anyway, no? >> >> We do have decisions to make, but I think we have >> to take it as read that the distribution in >> monosyllables is fixed. For instance, dydh ~ >> dedhyow is now part of the SWF (as is dedh ~ >> dedhyow) in the form of Vocalic Alternation. I >> don't think that we could get away with changing >> this to didh ~ dedhyow since VA is already a >> bitter enough pill the KK users have to swallow. >> >> I think we should be conservative here. >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Thu Jun 26 02:24:39 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:24:39 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Michael Everson : > At 21:12 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: > >To argue that y-acute is out of the question > >because the minority of Mac users who are > >technologically inept will find it awkward, > >seems rather a bizarre constraint. > > That is NOT what I said. I said NOTHING about > "technological ineptness". I said that there are > TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FONTS OUT THERE that people > are using TODAY that don't have this letter, and > we will never, ever fix them. That has nothing to > do with their ineptness. It is not "awkward". It > is a recipe for failure. > ... > I think I am right to insist that we be fair to > Mac users of Cornish no less than Windows users > of Cornish. I am not sure that the situation is as bad as you say, Michael. I would prefer not to use diacritics, but if they are really necessary then the choices should be clear and it seems from the discussion that y-acute should be a valid contender for consideration. The situation with y-acute is as follows (I know you know all this Michael, so bear with me). Y/y-acute are in ISO-8859-1 ("latin-1") at 0xdd and 0xfd, and the same in Unicode. They are in Windows CP-1252, ISO Western 2 and ISO-Adobe at the same locations. These characters are *not* in the codepage Mac Roman. So, it is true that fonts which *only* support Mac Roman do not provide y-acute. But how serious is this? Are there really "TENS OF THOUSANDS" of fonts which support only Mac Roman? And what is the relative frequency of use of these fonts compared to, say, the common web fonts or the common PDF fonts? On my Mac running Tiger the character palette tells me there are 182 fonts which contain y-acute. Perhaps 24 of them are fonts I have installed myself. So, any user of a reasonably recent Mac has about 150 system fonts which provide y-acute. In addition, any 3rd party font which supports any of the code pages listed above also includes y-acute. Perhaps the occasional person will occasionally experience the situation that a favourite font does not provide y-acute, but my expectation, at least, would be that this would be extremely uncommon and should not be a deal-breaker in the choice between y-diaresis and y-acute. Steve From njawilliams at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 10:07:07 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:07:07 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To whom do they "look better"? Not to me. does occur in toponyms in such words but not in the texts. To me poes goen froeth are utterly unacceptable. Froeth/frooth is controversial for another reason. The word is never attested as such; it is a respelling from a single instance of in the OCV. The ordinary word for 'fruit' in Cornish is frut, which is attested 46 times. Nicholas On 25 Jun 2008, at 23:20, A. J. Trim wrote: > I can add (8): I don't like in poos, goon, frooth, etc. I would > rather have poes, goen, froeth. They just look better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajtrim at msn.com Thu Jun 26 10:18:47 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:18:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Most of the problems that I have seen regarding diacritical marks have been caused during e-mail. Please see my PDF file that I posted yesterday. It shows e-mail failure for e and y with the dieresis. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 2:24 AM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" ; "Michael Everson" Cc: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Quoting Michael Everson : > >> At 21:12 +0300 2008-06-25, Owen Cook wrote: >> >To argue that y-acute is out of the question >> >because the minority of Mac users who are >> >technologically inept will find it awkward, >> >seems rather a bizarre constraint. >> >> That is NOT what I said. I said NOTHING about >> "technological ineptness". I said that there are >> TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FONTS OUT THERE that people >> are using TODAY that don't have this letter, and >> we will never, ever fix them. That has nothing to >> do with their ineptness. It is not "awkward". It >> is a recipe for failure. >> > > ... > >> I think I am right to insist that we be fair to >> Mac users of Cornish no less than Windows users >> of Cornish. > > I am not sure that the situation is as bad as you say, Michael. I would > prefer > not to use diacritics, but if they are really necessary then the choices > should > be clear and it seems from the discussion that y-acute should be a valid > contender for consideration. The situation with y-acute is as follows (I > know > you know all this Michael, so bear with me). > > Y/y-acute are in ISO-8859-1 ("latin-1") at 0xdd and 0xfd, and the same in > Unicode. > > They are in Windows CP-1252, ISO Western 2 and ISO-Adobe at the same > locations. > > These characters are *not* in the codepage Mac Roman. So, it is true that > fonts > which *only* support Mac Roman do not provide y-acute. > > But how serious is this? Are there really "TENS OF THOUSANDS" of fonts > which > support only Mac Roman? And what is the relative frequency of use of > these > fonts compared to, say, the common web fonts or the common PDF fonts? > > On my Mac running Tiger the character palette tells me there are 182 fonts > which > contain y-acute. Perhaps 24 of them are fonts I have installed myself. > > So, any user of a reasonably recent Mac has about 150 system fonts which > provide > y-acute. In addition, any 3rd party font which supports any of the code > pages > listed above also includes y-acute. > > Perhaps the occasional person will occasionally experience the situation > that a > favourite font does not provide y-acute, but my expectation, at least, > would be > that this would be extremely uncommon and should not be a deal-breaker in > the > choice between y-diaresis and y-acute. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 10:25:24 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:25:24 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sa s.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C- 3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail. gmail.com> <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 10:18 +0100 2008-06-26, A. J. Trim wrote: >Most of the problems that I have seen regarding >diacritical marks have been caused during >e-mail. Please see my PDF file that I posted >yesterday. It shows e-mail failure for e and y >with the dieresis. It shows that Steve Tinney's e-mail client took the ? and ? which I sent out and converted it into another encoding; perhaps UTF-8 or UTF-16? I know that I received them on my non-Unicode e-mail client as question marks. You received them as boxes. Because you had locked the PDF, I was unable to select the character and find out what you had received. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 10:31:24 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:31:24 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626093124.70C6211581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> I agree we cannot be sure. You use forward slashes to indicate phonemic representation, Owen. This allows for allophonic variation that might include, for example [e:], [E:], [eI], etc.. A phonemic orthography is convenient because one grapheme is used to represent several variants. However if you are asking whether we have the phoneme /ej/ as opposed to some other phoneme such as /e:/, you are asking a far more difficult question. Phonemes are determined by minimal contrast sets and this is extremely difficult, if not impossible, from the solely written corpus of historical texts that is available to us. On the other hand, if one attempts to codify Cornish with a phonetic orthography, one is obliged to write all the phonic variation that is realised in the language. This would include phenomena such as assimilation at word juncture. Of course, a phonetic orthography of this kind would be totally impractical. The naive method is to maintain that the orthgraphy is phonetic but that each grapheme can be realised by several phones. Such would really be a phonemic orthography without taking the trouble to first properly establish the phonemic inventory by minimal contrast. Such an orthgraphy will inevitably be a mess. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nicholas williams" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:03:01 +0100 > > > We cannot be sure. Can you think of any parallel? > Nicholas > On 25 Jun 2008, at 18:52, Owen Cook wrote: > > > I think so too Nicholas, but can we be sure of this? Can we actually > > exclude the possibility of /ejT/? > > > > ~~Owen > > > > 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : > >> I am not sure eyth is metathesis. Initial ye- is often reduced to e- > >> in ezow 'Jew', ehaz 'health', for example. > >> I take eyth to be for [e:T] where ey = e: and initial [j] is lost. > >> Incidentally the shift /je > e/ in initial position shows that > >> Caradar's Yesu (adopted by KK in their NT) > >> cannot be right. If it had been correct the name Yesu would sometimes > >> appear as *Esu which it never does. > >> > >> The name Jesu in MC is like Maria, Jacob, Jerusalem, Jowan and > >> Loundres and is borrowed from MFrench via Breton. > >> > >> Nicholas > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 10:50:08 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:50:08 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626093124.70C6211581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626093124.70C6211581F@ws1-7.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 09:31 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: >The naive method is to maintain that the orthgraphy is phonetic but >that each grapheme Or "some graphemes"; it would normally not apply to all of them. >[...] can be realised by several phones. Such would really be a >phonemic orthography without taking the trouble to first properly >establish the phonemic inventory by minimal contrast. Minimal contrast is not the only way of establishing them; and we do have two dialects of Revived Cornish already, and we know quite a lot about both of them and about the influence of English on them. >Such an orthgraphy will inevitably be a mess. I hope you are not suggesting that KS will be "a mess". For my part, I believe that KS will be a useful practical orthography. It should lead learners to better pronunciation, and offer teachers better tools to help learners achieve that. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 10:50:20 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:50:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 22:42 +0100 2008-06-25, A. J. Trim wrote: >a) You list your objection to no >diacritics, twice. I will accept diacritics if >used minimally but I would rather not have to >use them. Diacritics are necessary for precision. We use them in exceptional instanced, where vowel length or quality is other than would be predicted by the normal rules. >b) I agree with (1). I would prefer genef, myterneth. I think this is generally agreed by us. >c) I agree with (2). I would prefer dew, pew, newl. means [eU]; these words will have to be written , , . >d) I agree with some of (3). I would prefer >why, chy and ky. I?m not sure about ni. It may >be useful to distinguish between the negative >particle and ?we?. Should my/me be m?/m? and >ty/te be t?/t?? I would also prefer ef ?he? >instead of ev, even if it has to be an exception >to the normal rules. This will take some working out. I doubt we will mark my and me. Similarly I doubt that we will mark ?w/?w 'is'. As high-frequency words they are common enough not to mark. But I am a little doubtful about the utility of a special spelling for 'is' anyway; Gendall marks his as [eu], [iu]. >e) I agree with (4) but I don?t want too >many , and their use has to be predictable, >else spelling will be hellish. The system will be predictable. We know that some UC users don't like and some RLC users don't like . So we will try to strike a balance that makes sense. >f) I don?t yet understand (6). No doubt I >shall after it has been discussed. Should >mires/meres ?look? be m?res/m?res? We will get to this in due course. >g) I could add (7): The status of the >traditional graphs must be the same as or >stronger than that of the KK graphs. Definintely. >I can add (8): I don't like in poos, goon, >frooth, etc. I would rather have poes, goen, >froeth. They just look better. That's too bad; KK's is not traditional and was chosen for the SWF. This is also one graph which RLC users are used to. >I can add (9): I would like to be able to tell >with more certainty how to pronounce the words >that in SWF contain . For example usyes, >unys, du, a-ugh, ugans, tus, frut, fug, furv, >gorthuher, pub. There are more than two >sounds/lengths here. Yes, this is one of the most embarrassing bugs in the SWF. Nance distinguished the words, at least in his dictionary. is /y/~/i/ [y:]~[i:] and [Y]~[I] and are /u/ [u] and [U]; is [ju] or [iU] in and derivatives. >I can add (10): In words where can become >, we should mark the or , else use >, for example. This would give kerenza for >kerensa/kerenja. The suffixed pronouns sy/se and >jy/je could become z?/z?. Similarly, >marhasow/marhajow "markets" could become >marhazow. There's simply no way of marking or in anything like a satisfactory manner. A number of people have suggested the solution, but using for [dZ] is simply too great a stretch. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 10:53:25 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:53:25 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806260253q71c499b4x6c26675e76f2d97c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/26 A. J. Trim rug scrifa: > I can add (9): I would like to be able to tell with more certainty how to > pronounce the words that in SWF contain . For example usyes, unys, du, > a-ugh, ugans, tus, frut, fug, furv, gorthuher, pub. There are more than two > sounds/lengths here. Hear, hear. This is an important point. There are a number of u's we're talking about: A) for MC /y(:)/, which becomes LC /i(:)/. This is the most common value; we can take it as default. B) for early MC /y(:)/, which becomes /Iw/ rather early on. We find this in stressed open syllables (as in 'du') and before /h/ (as in 'uhel', 'a-ugh'). C) for /u:/ as in fr?t, g?n. KS has used here, with which I heartily concur. D) for /U/ or /7/ or something similar, as in 'p?b'. KS has used here; again I heartily concur. (By-the-bye, I think I've seen KS in unstressed syllables as well as stressed ones -- is this right?) E) in the word 'usya', which may be /ju/ or /Iw/ or who knows what. I keep suggesting that we press into service here, but nobody's commented so far. Gendall evidentally feels that 'universita' belongs in this category too. KS seems quite unsatisfactory to me here. If seems too letter-heavy, perhaps a diacritic is necessary? What about umlaut u with a tilde and underdot? (Just joking Michael!) A and B are in complementary distribution, so using the same grapheme seems all right to me. KS has already cracked the C and D nuts. And E affects only one or two roots. > I can add (10): In words where can become , we should mark the or > , else use , for example. This would give kerenza for kerensa/kerenja. > The suffixed pronouns sy/se and jy/je could become z?/z?. Similarly, > marhasow/marhajow "markets" could become marhazow. I have always wondered why nobody has seemed to be in a mood to consider an umbrella graph for these items. The situation seems similar to our dydh/dedh words -- there's an awful lot of words with s~j alternation. wouldn't pass the authenticity test, I suspect. I've always liked for this situation; it evokes Lhuyd, but would not make anybody else happy. However, I'm sure any solution would be too radical for our present undertaking. (Long s, anybody? Looks a bit like an inverted j, and its textual authenticity is impeccable. ;-) 2008/6/26 nicholas williams rug scrifa: > To whom do they "look better"? Not to me. Nor to me. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From njawilliams at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 11:15:11 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:15:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806260253q71c499b4x6c26675e76f2d97c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806260253q71c499b4x6c26675e76f2d97c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F52C7C8-0C8E-466A-BE74-5C53265B0925@gmail.com> We write arl?th, Arl?th to show that the segment is not [y]. [y] would have unrounded to [I] and the word would be universally arlith. Arlith/arlyth is attested in Late Cornish. In order to indicate an unfronted vowel the SWF has here which is not the traditional spelling. SWF also mistakenly has -dh: so SWF has the unattested *arlodh. with is attested 6 times. KS writes which with the diacritic added is the same as the traditional , attested no fewer than 601 times. KS also writes the unstressed word p?b 'all, every'. Incidentally we do not write *p?r 'very' since it is clear that this word < pur 'pure, clean' has split into two separate items: pur 'pure, clean, utter' [py:r] and the proclitic p?r 'very' [p at r]. The comparative of pur [py:r] is purra [pyr@], [pIr@] which is seen in pyrra foole ne ve gwelys CW 2400 The spelling 'very' is common in BK (x 13) and LC, e.g. por theffry ny vith kerys BK 1600 Mars eugh the Arthor por wyr BK 1357 ken yu hedda r?ol por u?r en Kembra Lhuyd Eth ove por loan tha gwellaz why a? metten ma Pryce Nicholas ----------- On 26 Jun 2008, at 10:53, Owen Cook wrote: > I think I've seen KS > in unstressed syllables as well as stressed ones -- is this > right?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 11:21:46 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:21:46 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> I wrote that "each grapheme can be realised by several phones." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:50:08 +0100 > > .... > Or "some graphemes"; it would normally not apply to all of them. Or really? Which phonemes of English (for example) are never realised by several phones? > Minimal contrast is not the only way of establishing them; How else do you intend to determine the phonemes of Cornish? > and we do > have two dialects of Revived Cornish already, and we know quite a lot > about both of them and about the influence of English on them. I am not talking about dialectal variation. > I hope you are not suggesting that KS will be "a mess". For my part, > I believe that KS will be a useful practical orthography. It should > lead learners to better pronunciation, and offer teachers better > tools to help learners achieve that. My post was not intended to be an attack. I am merely trying to point out what I consider to be an important weakness in the underlying theory. Since my article in Cornish Studies 7, various people have shied away from the term 'phonemic'. However labelling KS or the SWF 'phonetic' does not solve the issue. Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 12:38:29 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:38:29 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806260438k69a583cl98a42df1c08aac21@mail.gmail.com> Personally I would have no problem taking Lhuyd's transcriptions as phonetic. They must be the main raw materials for forming our ideas of the phonology of Cornish. The scribal tradition can also give strong hints about how that phonology might have stood at earlier stages than circa 1700. For example, Lhuyd's and (the undotted one) might be taken as representing [i] and [I]. We might then find, let us say, that [i] and [I] do not contrast with each other in any minimal pair, and therefore take them as allophones of /i/. Comparison with the scribal tradition will reveal that many words at an earlier stage were written with which later fell in with our /i/. Provided that no conditioning factors can be found which would otherwise account for , we posit /y/. (For example, might represent a conditioned variant of /i/ after labials, let's say. But this isn't the case, and the distribution of /y/ can't be predicted based on other factors, so the previous existence of /y/ remains an extremely robust hypothesis. Strengthened, one might add, if it accords with our reconstruction of proto-Brythonic, our knowledge of Middle French phonology, and so forth.) It's true, Middle Cornish phonology can't be established by minimal pairs of words collected by a linguist in the field. But by an incredible stroke of good luck, Late Cornish phonology can. And it's possible to triangulate back to Middle Cornish with varying degrees of confidence. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen 2008/6/26 Jon Mills rug scrifa: > How else do you intend to determine the phonemes of Cornish? [snip] > My post was not intended to be an attack. I am merely trying to point out what I consider to be > an important weakness in the underlying theory. Since my article in Cornish Studies 7, various > people have shied away from the term 'phonemic'. However labelling KS or the SWF 'phonetic' > does not solve the issue. > Jon > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > School of European Culture and Languages, > University of Kent From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Thu Jun 26 13:32:01 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:32:01 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sa s.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C- 3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail. gmail.com> <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <1214483521.48638c4195462@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Michael Everson : > At 10:18 +0100 2008-06-26, A. J. Trim wrote: > >Most of the problems that I have seen regarding > >diacritical marks have been caused during > >e-mail. Please see my PDF file that I posted > >yesterday. It shows e-mail failure for e and y > >with the dieresis. > > It shows that Steve Tinney's e-mail client took > the ? and ? which I sent out and converted it > into another encoding; perhaps UTF-8 or UTF-16? I > know that I received them on my non-Unicode > e-mail client as question marks. You received > them as boxes. Because you had locked the PDF, I > was unable to select the character and find out > what you had received. Since I always set all programs to default to UTF-8 encoding, it is quite likely that this scenario is correct. I use Firefox with a webmail client, so there are other possible places for the mangling to occur. Steve From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 11:12:04 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:12:04 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> <1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com> <1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 21:24 -0400 2008-06-25, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > Y/y-acute are in ISO-8859-1 ("latin-1") at 0xdd and 0xfd, and the same in >Unicode. > > They are in Windows CP-1252, ISO Western 2 and >ISO-Adobe at the same locations. > > These characters are *not* in the codepage Mac >Roman. So, it is true that fonts which *only* >support Mac Roman do not provide y-acute. > >But how serious is this? Are there really "TENS OF THOUSANDS" of fonts which >support only Mac Roman? Yes. Easy outline font design was first available on the Mac. >And what is the relative frequency of use of >these fonts compared to, say, the common web >fonts or the common PDF fonts? Display fonts (used in titling and signage and advertising and book cover design) are very commonly used even if many text fonts do not. >Perhaps the occasional person will occasionally >experience the situation that a favourite font >does not provide y-acute, but my expectation, at >least, would be that this would be extremely >uncommon and should not be a deal-breaker in the >choice between y-diaresis and y-acute. I am by no means convinced that y-acute is "better" than y-diaeresis in any case. I think the dot is nicely evocative of the dot in the which will help RMC users who see think of it as an [i:] sound. Moreover, I would like to consider using the acute as a mark of anomalous stress in dictionaries, in preference to the middle dot used in Nance and in Williams. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 12:01:00 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:01:00 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806260253q71c499b4x6c26675e76f2d97c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806260253q71c499b4x6c26675e76f2d97c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:53 +0300 2008-06-26, Owen Cook wrote: >A) for MC /y(:)/, which becomes LC /i(:)/. This is the most common >value; we can take it as default. Yes. >B) for early MC /y(:)/, which becomes /Iw/ rather early on. We >find this in stressed open syllables (as in 'du') and before /h/ (as >in 'uhel', 'a-ugh'). I don't think we have to mark these, as they can be listed exhaustively. How do you transcribe 'uhel' and 'a-ugh'? >C) for /u:/ as in fr?t, g?n. KS has used here, with which I >heartily concur. Yep. >D) for /U/ or /7/ or something similar, as in 'p?b'. KS has used > here; again I heartily concur. (By-the-bye, I think I've seen KS > in unstressed syllables as well as stressed ones -- is this >right?) Yep; it is quality that is being marked. >E) in the word 'usya', which may be /ju/ or >/Iw/ or who knows what. I keep suggesting that >we press into service here, but nobody's >commented so far. Gendall evidentally feels that >'universita' belongs in this category too. KS > seems quite unsatisfactory to me here. I hate to disagree with you... but I think it is easiest to use the standard mark for long [u:] and simply say that this word (I am not sure about ) has a special pronunciation. >If seems too letter-heavy, perhaps a diacritic is necessary? ? ? This would lead to another divergence from the SWF (and from UC, UCR, and KK) for little yield. Using the circumflex treads more lightly. >I have always wondered why nobody has seemed to >be in a mood to consider an umbrella graph for >these items. Because none suits. >The situation seems similar to our dydh/dedh >words -- there's an awful lot of words with s~j >alternation. wouldn't pass the authenticity >test, I suspect. Yes, and I guess this is just going to have to be Something To Learn. >I've always liked for this situation; it >evokes Lhuyd, but would not make anybody else >happy. However, I'm sure any solution would be >too radical for our present undertaking. I agree. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 14:07:58 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:07:58 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 10:21 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: >I wrote that "each grapheme can be realised by several phones." Yes. > > Or "some graphemes"; it would normally not apply to all of them. > >Or really? Which phonemes of English (for >example) are never realised by several phones? Jon, you're being mighty persnickety. Or we aren't understanding each other. We've got some umbrella graphs. But I said "some graphemes" instead of "each grapheme" because I am thinking that we do have umbrella graphs for different phonemes, like for /?/~/e/. > > Minimal contrast is not the only way of establishing them; > >How else do you intend to determine the phonemes of Cornish? At what level of abstraction are you talking? We have Revived Cornish and some pretty good recommended pronunciations that are actually feasible. What are you getting at? Starting from scratch and trying to reconstruct? Or? > > and we do > > have two dialects of Revived Cornish already, and we know quite a lot > > about both of them and about the influence of English on them. > >I am not talking about dialectal variation. I don't know what you are talking about. >My post was not intended to be an attack. I am >merely trying to point out what I consider to be >an important weakness in the underlying theory. Please be plain about it, then, because I don't know what you're on about. Our brief when we devised KS was to devise an orthography that could handle the dialects of Revived Cornish in a practical way while remaining true to traditional graphs (modulo of course; we're talking about not supporting George's adventitious graphs). Our brief now is to take what they've done with KS in turning it into the SWF and to put right what has been put wrong. How does this relate to what you are talking about in terms of "underlying theory"? Is it related, or is it tangental and related to something else? -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 14:08:27 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:08:27 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 10:21 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: >Since my article in Cornish Studies 7, various people have shied >away from the term 'phonemic'. However labelling KS or the SWF >'phonetic' does not solve the issue. I use the term as laymen use it. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Thu Jun 26 14:26:33 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:26:33 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <20080626102146.E869A164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1214486793.4863990978d09@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Michael Everson : > we're talking about not supporting George's adventitious graphs I wonder if, purely as a strategic matter, it wouldn't be a good idea to include an appendix in new-KS demonstrating how these adventitious graphs could be accommodated within the system of revisions being suggested. Without it, it could be one more reason for some to say: no good, doesn't do what we need to do. Of course, if this turns out to be beyond technical feasibility then that won't fly. Steve From kenmackinnon at enterprise.net Thu Jun 26 12:13:51 2008 From: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:13:51 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical References: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: <080101c8d794$1a8589f0$22be9453@yourcfe1ef5834> I think that dierisis is ambiguous ( unlike circumflex, for example.) Not only that, it has always sounded to me more like a bowel complaint. - an Ken ken. (Prof) Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Prohaska To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical From: Jon Mills Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:56 AM "What I want from the SWF is the possibility to use traditional forms. The attested traditional forms are deth, deyth, dyth (Middle & Tudor) and deeth (Late). Am I the only person who thinks the diaresis looks awful? Jon" Rest assured, I?m no fan of the diaeresis either. This may be irrational and childish, but I also dislike the fact that Michael is pushing for diaeresis because it?s easy for HIM to write on HIS computer, while not considering the people that are using other systems and may find y-accute, y-grave or y-circumflex easier, or equally difficult to spell as y-diaeresis. Sorry, Michael, but it just doesn?t add up. I can live with the SWF alternation dydh ~ dedhyow and it?s alternative dedh ~ dedhyow. I don?t need any diacritic in this particular case. Jon, I?ve also found Lhuyd?s spelling for ?he day? in Late Cornish. Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1514 - Release Date: 23/06/2008 07:17 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kenmackinnon at enterprise.net Thu Jun 26 12:32:45 2008 From: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:32:45 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><18915304-3E2B-46E7-A4D2-C4C1729B1440@gmail.com> Message-ID: <080401c8d794$24436f70$22be9453@yourcfe1ef5834> Likewise - an Ken ken (Prof) Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: kenmackinnon at enterprise.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Semmens" To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > Its purely an aesthetic thing with me. I like chi and ki even less > than I like chei and kei. I always preferred chy, ky. > > Christian > > 2008/6/25 nicholas williams : >> I am sorry you don't like . Nicholas Boson didn't mind it: >> Dean ha Bennen en Tellar creiez chei an Horr >> ha uor an diuath ea reeg thoas da chei Teeack >> Komeer weeth na Raw'y Ostia en chei lebma vo dean koath Demithez da >> Bennen >> Younk. >> Ironically enough 'dog' is attested but SWF (< KK) ki is not. In MC >> the word is spelt ky. >> Similarly chy is common and is attested over 60 times. SWF chi (< KK) >> occurs >> once: >> citesens gans an an syns, ha ran an chi a thu, ha buldyys owgh war an >> fondacion an abosteleth, han prophettys TH 33. >> Nicholas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1514 - Release Date: 23/06/2008 07:17 From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 15:09:49 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:09:49 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <080101c8d794$1a8589f0$22be9453@yourcfe1ef5834> References: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> <080101c8d794$1a8589f0$22be9453@yourcfe1ef5834> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806260709k645bf82fyf4bc01a17397bb19@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/26 Ken MacKinnon rug scrifa: > I think that dierisis is ambiguous ( unlike circumflex, for example.) Not > only that, it has always sounded to me more like a bowel complaint. As opposed to a vowel complaint. ~~Owen From njawilliams at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 15:25:22 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:25:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806260709k645bf82fyf4bc01a17397bb19@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> <080101c8d794$1a8589f0$22be9453@yourcfe1ef5834> <6e5d3b9f0806260709k645bf82fyf4bc01a17397bb19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DEB5EB8-91D2-4DF2-B979-033D118AAF11@gmail.com> The circumflex is already in use for other functions, e.g. to show that fr?t is not fritt. In SWF with its absence of diacritics there is no way of telling how the word is to be pronounced. This is a serious defect in the SWF. The diaeresis is the only sensible diacritic for such pairs as b?dh 'be!' ~ bedh 'grave'; gwr?s 'done, made' ~ gwres 'heat', r?s 'given' ~ res 'necessity', dr?s 'brought' ~ dres 'across', pr?v 'reptile' ~ prev 'will prove', h?s 'length' ~ hes 'swarm'. The diaeresis indicates that the vowel may also be pronounced [i:]. Nicholas On 26 Jun 2008, at 15:09, Owen Cook wrote: > 2008/6/26 Ken MacKinnon rug scrifa: >> I think that dierisis is ambiguous ( unlike circumflex, for >> example.) Not >> only that, it has always sounded to me more like a bowel complaint. > > As opposed to a vowel complaint. > > ~~Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 15:36:47 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:36:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Problems with SWF Message-ID: 2008/6/26 Michael Everson rug scrifa: > I don't think we have to mark these, as they can be listed exhaustively. How > do you transcribe 'uhel' and 'a-ugh'? Oh, I think they're just /'iwh at l/ and /@'iwh/, aren't they? (Why the devil did I leave Archaeologia Britannica in storage?) (I am taking it that [x] is an allophone of /h/, by the way.) >> If seems too letter-heavy, perhaps a diacritic is necessary? > > ? ? This would lead to another divergence from the SWF > (and from UC, UCR, and KK) for little yield. Using the circumflex treads > more lightly. It fixes an inconsistency. I like the way looks in 'uwsya', but if nobody else agrees with me, fair enough. There is still the option of or . But actually, now that I think about it, all of the we use for /u:/ is non-initial, no? Can we not say that as a rule initial represents some species of [iu], be it /ju/ or /iw/? Gendall writes the following words with : ?nya, ?nyon, ?nita, ?niversal, ?niversalita, ?niversita ?rnel (urinal) ?s, ?sadow, ?sya*, ?sys*, ?syans~?jyans ?surpya (My KS-based spellings, by the way, not his. I've omitted his English dialect words.) The items marked with an asterisk are attested in Lhuyd with [iu] or [Iu] (i.e. or ). If the [iu] thing can be believed for the other items too, we have a reasonably important set here. In any case, it is necessary to keep these separate from other words beginning with , like uvel, ugans, ufern, udn, which simply fall in with /i/ in Late Cornish. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 15:52:13 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:52:13 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626145213.14E87164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> You are correct in saying that Lhuyd's transcriptions are phonetic. However not every Cornish word written in Archaeologia Britannica is phonetically transcribed in Lhuyd's General Alphabet. Some items are quoted as they are spelled in the Middle Cornish texts. So care needs to be taken when citing Lhuyd as an authority for any proposed pronunciation. Using minimal contrast, it would be possible, as you suggest Owen, to extrapolate a phonemic inventory from Lhuyd's Archaeologia; though this would not be entirely free of problems. The results might come as a surprise to many. For example, I have so far been unable to find a minimal contrast pair for Lhuyd's and . This suggests that in 17th century Cornish, [D] and [T] are allophones, not separate phonemes. In English, [D] and [T] can easily be demonstrated to be distinct phonemes by minimal contrast: word initially - 'thy' ~ 'thigh', word medially - 'either' ~ 'ether', word finally - 'mouth' (noun) ~ 'mouth' (verb). Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Owen Cook" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:38:29 +0300 > > > Personally I would have no problem taking Lhuyd's transcriptions as > phonetic. They must be the main raw materials for forming our ideas of > the phonology of Cornish. The scribal tradition can also give strong > hints about how that phonology might have stood at earlier stages than > circa 1700. > > For example, Lhuyd's and (the undotted one) might be taken as > representing [i] and [I]. We might then find, let us say, that [i] and > [I] do not contrast with each other in any minimal pair, and therefore > take them as allophones of /i/. Comparison with the scribal tradition > will reveal that many words at an earlier stage were written with > which later fell in with our /i/. Provided that no conditioning > factors can be found which would otherwise account for , we posit > /y/. (For example, might represent a conditioned variant of /i/ > after labials, let's say. But this isn't the case, and the > distribution of /y/ can't be predicted based on other factors, so the > previous existence of /y/ remains an extremely robust hypothesis. > Strengthened, one might add, if it accords with our reconstruction of > proto-Brythonic, our knowledge of Middle French phonology, and so > forth.) > > It's true, Middle Cornish phonology can't be established by minimal > pairs of words collected by a linguist in the field. But by an > incredible stroke of good luck, Late Cornish phonology can. And it's > possible to triangulate back to Middle Cornish with varying degrees of > confidence. > > Oll an gwelha, > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/26 Jon Mills rug scrifa: > > How else do you intend to determine the phonemes of Cornish? > [snip] > > My post was not intended to be an attack. I am merely trying to > > point out what I consider to be > > an important weakness in the underlying theory. Since my article > > in Cornish Studies 7, various > > people have shied away from the term 'phonemic'. However > > labelling KS or the SWF 'phonetic' > > does not solve the issue. > > Jon > > > > _____________________________________ > > Dr. Jon Mills, > > School of European Culture and Languages, > > University of Kent > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 15:59:55 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:59:55 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626145955.74C3FBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Then I misunderstood you, my apologies. If we are to discuss the pronunciation of Cornish in relation to orthography, should we not use the terms 'phone', 'phoneme', 'phonetic' and 'phonemic' as a phonetician understands these terms? Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:08:27 +0100 > > > At 10:21 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: > > > Since my article in Cornish Studies 7, various people have shied > > away from the term 'phonemic'. However labelling KS or the SWF > > 'phonetic' does not solve the issue. > > I use the term as laymen use it. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 16:14:13 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:14:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626145955.74C3FBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626145955.74C3FBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 14:59 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: >Then I misunderstood you, my apologies. > >If we are to discuss the pronunciation of Cornish in relation to >orthography, should we not use the terms 'phone', 'phoneme', >'phonetic' and 'phonemic' as a phonetician understands these terms? I suppose the level of abstraction of any particular discussion should be specified. When we say "KS is a phonetic orthography" using the term as laymen use it (since they do not know the word "phonemic" anyway) we are saying that people can rely on the sound-to-spelling relationship. It's not arbitrary; it's closely related to traditional orthography even while normalizing and occasionally innovating choices which were not made in traditional orthography (like distinguishing and in monosyllables) which help learners and writers in a variety of ways. I guess when George says KK is "phonemic" he means "morpho-phonemic". I'll have to re-read your article in CS7. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 16:16:15 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:16:15 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626145213.14E87164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626145213.14E87164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 14:52 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: >I have so far been unable to find a minimal contrast pair for >Lhuyd's and . This suggests that in 17th century Cornish, >[D] and [T] are allophones, not separate phonemes. I don't know that that'd be so. Lhuyd will have had interference from Welsh which may muddy the waters somewhat. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 16:34:08 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:34:08 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626145213.14E87164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626145213.14E87164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806260834qb2acb48g1d450ebfe2074325@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/26 Jon Mills rug scrifa: > You are correct in saying that Lhuyd's transcriptions are phonetic. However not every Cornish > word written in Archaeologia Britannica is phonetically transcribed in Lhuyd's General Alphabet. > Some items are quoted as they are spelled in the Middle Cornish texts. So care needs to be > taken when citing Lhuyd as an authority for any proposed pronunciation. True enough. > Using minimal contrast, it would be possible, as you suggest Owen, to extrapolate a phonemic > inventory from Lhuyd's Archaeologia; though this would not be entirely free of problems. Indeed, I would expect it to have problems! > The results might come as a surprise to many. For example, I have so far been unable to find a > minimal contrast pair for Lhuyd's and . This suggests that in 17th century Cornish, [D] > and [T] are allophones, not separate phonemes. That is an interesting circumstance. How would we account for [T] if it is an allophone of /D/? If it is an allophone, how is it conditioned? If it is not conditioned, we must imagine that there is free variation. But if we find relative stability of [T] in certain words, rather than free variation, then we have a puzzle on our hands. ~~Owen From njawilliams at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 16:39:41 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:39:41 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <20080626145213.14E87164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <27A83F2E-CAB8-4B01-B740-C8888E3B2A7A@gmail.com> And since he was writing Late Cornish he more often than not did not lenite initial consonants. This meant that dhe dhos [to use modern notation remains as dho doaz [or whatever]. This reduces the instances of lenited d. There are minimal pairs in Lhuyd that show the phonemic distinction of /D/ and /T/. Notice: rag tra v?th AB: 222 and ha uelkom ti a v?dh JCH ? 15. Nicholas On 26 Jun 2008, at 16:16, Michael Everson wrote: > At 14:52 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: > >> I have so far been unable to find a minimal contrast pair for >> Lhuyd's and . This suggests that in 17th century Cornish, >> [D] and [T] are allophones, not separate phonemes. > > I don't know that that'd be so. Lhuyd will have had interference from > Welsh which may muddy the waters somewhat. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 16:42:30 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:42:30 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626154230.DAFCC164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:07:58 +0100 > .... > Jon, you're being mighty persnickety. Or we aren't understanding each other. I think that we need to be "mighty persnickety". KS needs a sound theoretical foundation; "... den fol neb a dhrehevys y jy war an treth" (Mathew 7:26). Ultimately, it needs to be decided what the relationship is between KS orthography and the pronunciation of Cornish. If KS is intended to closely represent the pronunciation system of Cornish, it must be phonemic in principle. There is simply no alternative. The phonemic system is the principal element of the phonological system where orthography is concerned. An orthography that is not theoretically sound is just waiting to be shot down. The reason that we do not like KK is that it is theoretically unsound. > We've got some umbrella graphs. But I said "some > graphemes" instead of "each grapheme" because I > am thinking that we do have umbrella graphs for > different phonemes, like for /?/~/e/. Umbrella graphs are being used to bridge dialectal variation not allophonic variation. Nothing wrong with that per se. > At what level of abstraction are you talking? Phonemes are abstractions. Allophones are realisations. > We > have Revived Cornish and some pretty good > recommended pronunciations that are actually > feasible. What are you getting at? Starting from > scratch and trying to reconstruct? Or? Well, I hope that we do not have to start from scratch. We have some recommended pronunciations, didactolects. Just how good, however .... We do not seem to think much of KK's accompanying orthoepy. Theories concerning the pronunciation of Cornish are in a state of flux and are likely to remain so for the forseeable future. An orthography is not going to be robust if it is founded on shifting didactolects. A more stable foundation is needed. > Please be plain about it, then, because I don't > know what you're on about. Our brief when we > devised KS was to devise an orthography that > could handle the dialects of Revived Cornish in a > practical way while remaining true to traditional > graphs (modulo of course; we're talking > about not supporting George's adventitious > graphs). Our brief now is to take what they've > done with KS in turning it into the SWF and to > put right what has been put wrong. > > How does this relate to what you are talking > about in terms of "underlying theory"? Is it > related, or is it tangental and related to > something else? Well, I hope I've made myself clearer. Sorry if I'm muddying the water somewhat. Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 16:49:35 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:49:35 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626154935.6E59B1CE833@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com> Lhuyd takes great care to note the differences between Cornish and Welsh and frequently comments on them. In fact you could say that is the whole point of Archaeologia Britannica, to demonstrate the similarities and differences between the Celtic languages. It was Archaeologia Britannica that established that these languages form a family. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:16:15 +0100 > > > At 14:52 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: > > > I have so far been unable to find a minimal contrast pair for > > Lhuyd's and . This suggests that in 17th century > > Cornish, [D] and [T] are allophones, not separate phonemes. > > I don't know that that'd be so. Lhuyd will have had interference from > Welsh which may muddy the waters somewhat. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From j.mills at email.com Thu Jun 26 17:01:10 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:01:10 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for Message-ID: <20080626160110.38718164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Well that is one. Thank you for that.Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "nicholas williams" To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] RLC for Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:39:41 +0100 ....There are minimal pairs in Lhuyd that show the phonemic distinction of /D/ and /T/. Notice: rag tra v?th AB: 222 and ha uelkom ti a v?dh JCH ? 15. Nicholas _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 17:26:31 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:26:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: <20080626154230.DAFCC164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080626154230.DAFCC164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 15:42 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: >Ultimately, it needs to be decided what the relationship is between >KS orthography and the pronunciation of Cornish. Which Cornish? :-) >If KS is intended to closely represent the pronunciation system of >Cornish, it must be phonemic in principle. It also has to be more, because there are dialect differences it must account for. for instance represents /y/ and /i/, since one dialect has no /y/. >The phonemic system is the principal element of the phonological >system where orthography is concerned. An orthography that is not >theoretically sound is just waiting to be shot down. I'm not much of a linguistic abstractionist. I don't believe i've defined any "theory" for KS. I've looked at the data and worked with Neil and Nicholas and the rest of UdnFormScrefys to put something together that "does the job". Perhaps that matches a theory? >The reason that we do not like KK is that it is theoretically unsound. On several grounds. First, George reconstructs Cornish phonology as he thinks it ought to be, introducing phonemic geminates and three conditioned vowel lengths as the core of a system which all the evidence suggests had short or neutral consonants and two phonemic vowel lengths. Second, he insists on a theory that a one-to-one relationship between graphs is "good" and anything else is "bad". Third, he uses untraditional graphs which piss people off. (Thank goodness he did. It really let people dig their heels in against it.) >Umbrella graphs are being used to bridge dialectal variation not >allophonic variation. Nothing wrong with that per se. > >> At what level of abstraction are you talking? > >Phonemes are abstractions. Allophones are realisations. OK, but I'm not sure how this affects my task. Though KS 16 describes the phonemes and also uses IPA to show phonetic realizations. So maybe I took it into account. > > We have Revived Cornish and some pretty good > > recommended pronunciations that are actually > > feasible. What are you getting at? Starting from >> scratch and trying to reconstruct? Or? > >Well, I hope that we do not have to start from scratch. We have some >recommended pronunciations, didactolects. Just how good, however >.... We do not seem to think much of KK's accompanying orthoepy. >Theories concerning the pronunciation of Cornish are in a state of >flux and are likely to remain so for the forseeable future. An >orthography is not going to be robust if it is founded on shifting >didactolects. A more stable foundation is needed. I think the phonology of KS is based on an analysis of what people are doing, with some corrections where we would like to encourage better pronunciation. For instance, we recommend a flapped /r/ intervocalically for people who can manage it and the approximant elsewhere. Neil Kennedy has taught this to his students and it sounds good and is not unfounded in Cornish dialect. I don't know what *other* recommendations about /r/ we would like to make instead. As I see it UC recommendations are improved by UCR recommendations and those were improved by working with RLC speakers, studying Lhuyd, and making the effort we began in September 2006. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 17:52:31 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:52:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] minimal pairs in Lhuyd Message-ID: <8632794D-46C7-4844-9D54-97842E43A21B@gmail.com> I think that minimal pairs in Lhuyd showing the phonemic status of / T/ and /D/ are actually quite numerous. I am without my own copy of Arch. Brit. here in County Mayo (where I am on holiday) but I have already noticed: po kotha Lavar an Enez-ma AB: 222 and mez hedda a kodha en ydnek AB: 223 rag tra v?th AB: 222, 223 and ha uelkom ti a v?dh JCH ?? 15, 20, 24 ken gueskal enueth JCH ? 10 and ha enuedh legryz dhort an z AB: 223. And I have already mentioned dh?th 'came' and d?dh 'day' (though I have at present no example of dh?dh). I am sure that a trawl through AB would produce several others. I think we can be sure that and in Lhuyd represent different phonemes. Nicholas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 26 17:59:33 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:59:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806260709k645bf82fyf4bc01a17397bb19@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806250918.m5P9IfAU011768@onewbx1p.one.at> <080101c8d794$1a8589f0$22be9453@yourcfe1ef5834> <6e5d3b9f0806260709k645bf82fyf4bc01a17397bb19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DBA6E80-F95B-4CD3-8692-085960B5132A@yahoo.co.uk> On 26 Jun 2008, at 15:09, Owen Cook wrote: > 2008/6/26 Ken MacKinnon rug scrifa: >> I think that dierisis is ambiguous ( unlike circumflex, for >> example.) Not >> only that, it has always sounded to me more like a bowel complaint. > > As opposed to a vowel complaint. .. . . combine that with a 'treylyans medhal', and you're really in a mess! Eddie From njawilliams at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 18:00:20 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:00:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <20080626154230.DAFCC164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Besides, Jon, in your hatched job on KK in Cornish Studies, you do not demand a one to one relationship of graph to sound. You actually say (and I am quoting from memory) that all we need is a fairly close fit between sounds and spelling and Unified gave us that. You then go on to say that KK was an expensive waste of time and effort. Well what is needed is this: a good (if not perfect) fit of spelling with sounds even if there are a few marginal inconsistencies. The fit of SWF with the sounds is very poor. The use of is chaotic. Moreover final -dh after unstressed vowels is de rigueur, except in nowyth, even though most KK speakers have a voiceless segment passim. We are not devising a phonetic transcription, either broad or narrow. Just an orthography for a group of speakers, whose whole outlook has been severely warped by over 20 years of orthographical and phonological nonsense. Nicholas On 26 Jun 2008, at 17:26, Michael Everson wrote: > At 15:42 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: > >> Ultimately, it needs to be decided what the relationship is between >> KS orthography and the pronunciation of Cornish. > > Which Cornish? :-) > >> If KS is intended to closely represent the pronunciation system of >> Cornish, it must be phonemic in principle. > > It also has to be more, because there are dialect differences it must > account for. for instance represents /y/ and /i/, since one > dialect has no /y/. > >> The phonemic system is the principal element of the phonological >> system where orthography is concerned. An orthography that is not >> theoretically sound is just waiting to be shot down. > > I'm not much of a linguistic abstractionist. I don't believe i've > defined any "theory" for KS. I've looked at the data and worked with > Neil and Nicholas and the rest of UdnFormScrefys to put something > together that "does the job". Perhaps that matches a theory? > >> The reason that we do not like KK is that it is theoretically >> unsound. > > On several grounds. First, George reconstructs Cornish phonology as > he thinks it ought to be, introducing phonemic geminates and three > conditioned vowel lengths as the core of a system which all the > evidence suggests had short or neutral consonants and two phonemic > vowel lengths. Second, he insists on a theory that a one-to-one > relationship between graphs is "good" and anything else is "bad". > Third, he uses untraditional graphs which piss people off. (Thank > goodness he did. It really let people dig their heels in against it.) > >> Umbrella graphs are being used to bridge dialectal variation not >> allophonic variation. Nothing wrong with that per se. >> >>> At what level of abstraction are you talking? >> >> Phonemes are abstractions. Allophones are realisations. > > OK, but I'm not sure how this affects my task. Though KS 16 describes > the phonemes and also uses IPA to show phonetic realizations. So > maybe I took it into account. > >>> We have Revived Cornish and some pretty good >>> recommended pronunciations that are actually >>> feasible. What are you getting at? Starting from >>> scratch and trying to reconstruct? Or? >> >> Well, I hope that we do not have to start from scratch. We have some >> recommended pronunciations, didactolects. Just how good, however >> .... We do not seem to think much of KK's accompanying orthoepy. >> Theories concerning the pronunciation of Cornish are in a state of >> flux and are likely to remain so for the forseeable future. An >> orthography is not going to be robust if it is founded on shifting >> didactolects. A more stable foundation is needed. > > I think the phonology of KS is based on an analysis of what people > are doing, with some corrections where we would like to encourage > better pronunciation. For instance, we recommend a flapped /r/ > intervocalically for people who can manage it and the approximant > elsewhere. Neil Kennedy has taught this to his students and it sounds > good and is not unfounded in Cornish dialect. I don't know what > *other* recommendations about /r/ we would like to make instead. > > As I see it UC recommendations are improved by UCR recommendations > and those were improved by working with RLC speakers, studying Lhuyd, > and making the effort we began in September 2006. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From teli7777 at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 20:29:24 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:29:24 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for discussion when the 5 year review occurs?These principles are listed as: 1. *Inclusivity *? Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish should be able to write as they speak. 2. *Accessibility *? The SWF should be as easy as possible for speakers, learners, and teachers to learn and use. 3. *Accuracy *? The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both traditional and Revived Cornish. 4. *Authenticity *? The SWF should use spellings that reflect established traditions of Cornish orthography. 5. *Continuity *? Where practical, the SWF should produce the smallest possible number of changes for the largest possible number of speakers. Terry From everson at evertype.com Thu Jun 26 20:41:38 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:41:38 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 13:29 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry wrote: >Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for >discussion when the 5 year review occurs? As far as I am concerned they are open for discussion now. >These principles are listed as: > >1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish should be >able to write as they speak. >2. *Accessibility *- The SWF should be as easy as possible for speakers, >learners, and teachers to learn and use. >3. *Accuracy *- The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both >traditional and Revived Cornish. I don't have any problem with these. >4. *Authenticity *- The SWF should use spellings that reflect >established traditions of Cornish orthography. This is disingenuous. Indeed it is bollocks. Evidently the authors believe -- or pretend to believe -- or want some people to believe that they believe -- that KK is an "established tradition", which is why and and <-i> were not simply thrown out as they ought to have been. >5. *Continuity *- Where practical, the SWF should produce the smallest >possible number of changes for the largest possible number of speakers. This "principle" was devised and added by the Arbitrator, and it is likewise unacceptable, because it is clear that some choices were made in order to produce few changes for KK users, since KK users "are the largest number of speakers". The "principle" was not discussed at either of the first two AHGs and when this appeared in the first SWF draft, Agan Tavas and its Linguistic Advisors protested and requested that the text be removed. The distribution of and is the worst example of this "principle". No matter how many times Nicholas and I tried to get discussion of the distribution, we were just ignored. The distribution of and in the SWF is as it is in KK. That is why it is incoherent. It's not based on phonetic or phonemic principles. It's based on George's etymologies. I don't accept that as sufficient. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Thu Jun 26 23:00:44 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:00:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> Indeed, as you rightly say, it is flagrant "dewgell". KK is not an "established tradition" by any stretch of the imagination. It is an artificial construct devised just over 20 years ago. For me, "established tradition" should refer to Cornish orthography, as written down by native speakers in the centuries prior to the revival. Although much of the revival (Nance, Jenner, Williams, Gendall) did retain and respect much of that tradition, KK did not. It threw it aside because its devisors believed they knew better than those who were brought up to speak and write the language (and who were Cornish as well). Craig Michael Everson wrote: > At 13:29 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry wrote: > >> Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for >> discussion when the 5 year review occurs? >> > > As far as I am concerned they are open for discussion now. > > >> These principles are listed as: >> >> 1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish should be >> able to write as they speak. >> 2. *Accessibility *- The SWF should be as easy as possible for speakers, >> learners, and teachers to learn and use. >> 3. *Accuracy *- The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both >> traditional and Revived Cornish. >> > > I don't have any problem with these. > > >> 4. *Authenticity *- The SWF should use spellings that reflect >> established traditions of Cornish orthography. >> > > This is disingenuous. Indeed it is bollocks. Evidently the authors > believe -- or pretend to believe -- or want some people to believe > that they believe -- that KK is an "established tradition", which is > why and and <-i> were not simply thrown out as they ought > to have been. > > >> 5. *Continuity *- Where practical, the SWF should produce the smallest >> possible number of changes for the largest possible number of speakers. >> > > This "principle" was devised and added by the Arbitrator, and it is > likewise unacceptable, because it is clear that some choices were > made in order to produce few changes for KK users, since KK users > "are the largest number of speakers". The "principle" was not > discussed at either of the first two AHGs and when this appeared in > the first SWF draft, Agan Tavas and its Linguistic Advisors protested > and requested that the text be removed. > > The distribution of and is the worst example of this > "principle". No matter how many times Nicholas and I tried to get > discussion of the distribution, we were just ignored. The > distribution of and in the SWF is as it is in KK. That is why > it is incoherent. It's not based on phonetic or phonemic principles. > It's based on George's etymologies. I don't accept that as sufficient. > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Thu Jun 26 23:03:48 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:03:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] RLC for In-Reply-To: References: <20080626154230.DAFCC164293@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <48641244.8060405@freenet.co.uk> KK phonology is very largely a fiction and a product of one person's imagination. Which is why he has never, in 23 years, allowed public inspection of the data which forms the basis of his theory. Craig Michael Everson wrote: > At 15:42 +0000 2008-06-26, Jon Mills wrote: > > >> Ultimately, it needs to be decided what the relationship is between >> KS orthography and the pronunciation of Cornish. >> > > Which Cornish? :-) > > >> If KS is intended to closely represent the pronunciation system of >> Cornish, it must be phonemic in principle. >> > > It also has to be more, because there are dialect differences it must > account for. for instance represents /y/ and /i/, since one > dialect has no /y/. > > >> The phonemic system is the principal element of the phonological >> system where orthography is concerned. An orthography that is not >> theoretically sound is just waiting to be shot down. >> > > I'm not much of a linguistic abstractionist. I don't believe i've > defined any "theory" for KS. I've looked at the data and worked with > Neil and Nicholas and the rest of UdnFormScrefys to put something > together that "does the job". Perhaps that matches a theory? > > >> The reason that we do not like KK is that it is theoretically unsound. >> > > On several grounds. First, George reconstructs Cornish phonology as > he thinks it ought to be, introducing phonemic geminates and three > conditioned vowel lengths as the core of a system which all the > evidence suggests had short or neutral consonants and two phonemic > vowel lengths. Second, he insists on a theory that a one-to-one > relationship between graphs is "good" and anything else is "bad". > Third, he uses untraditional graphs which piss people off. (Thank > goodness he did. It really let people dig their heels in against it.) > > >> Umbrella graphs are being used to bridge dialectal variation not >> allophonic variation. Nothing wrong with that per se. >> >> >>> At what level of abstraction are you talking? >>> >> Phonemes are abstractions. Allophones are realisations. >> > > OK, but I'm not sure how this affects my task. Though KS 16 describes > the phonemes and also uses IPA to show phonetic realizations. So > maybe I took it into account. > > >> > We have Revived Cornish and some pretty good >> > recommended pronunciations that are actually >> > feasible. What are you getting at? Starting from >> >>> scratch and trying to reconstruct? Or? >>> >> Well, I hope that we do not have to start from scratch. We have some >> recommended pronunciations, didactolects. Just how good, however >> .... We do not seem to think much of KK's accompanying orthoepy. >> Theories concerning the pronunciation of Cornish are in a state of >> flux and are likely to remain so for the forseeable future. An >> orthography is not going to be robust if it is founded on shifting >> didactolects. A more stable foundation is needed. >> > > I think the phonology of KS is based on an analysis of what people > are doing, with some corrections where we would like to encourage > better pronunciation. For instance, we recommend a flapped /r/ > intervocalically for people who can manage it and the approximant > elsewhere. Neil Kennedy has taught this to his students and it sounds > good and is not unfounded in Cornish dialect. I don't know what > *other* recommendations about /r/ we would like to make instead. > > As I see it UC recommendations are improved by UCR recommendations > and those were improved by working with RLC speakers, studying Lhuyd, > and making the effort we began in September 2006. > From teli7777 at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 23:44:26 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:44:26 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: What is the definition of "Traditional Cornish"? On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > At 13:29 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry wrote: > >Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for > >discussion when the 5 year review occurs? > > As far as I am concerned they are open for discussion now. > > >These principles are listed as: > > > >1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish should be > >able to write as they speak. > >2. *Accessibility *- The SWF should be as easy as possible for speakers, > >learners, and teachers to learn and use. > >3. *Accuracy *- The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both > >traditional and Revived Cornish. > > I don't have any problem with these. > > >4. *Authenticity *- The SWF should use spellings that reflect > >established traditions of Cornish orthography. > > This is disingenuous. Indeed it is bollocks. Evidently the authors > believe -- or pretend to believe -- or want some people to believe > that they believe -- that KK is an "established tradition", which is > why and and <-i> were not simply thrown out as they ought > to have been. > > >5. *Continuity *- Where practical, the SWF should produce the smallest > >possible number of changes for the largest possible number of speakers. > > This "principle" was devised and added by the Arbitrator, and it is > likewise unacceptable, because it is clear that some choices were > made in order to produce few changes for KK users, since KK users > "are the largest number of speakers". The "principle" was not > discussed at either of the first two AHGs and when this appeared in > the first SWF draft, Agan Tavas and its Linguistic Advisors protested > and requested that the text be removed. > > The distribution of and is the worst example of this > "principle". No matter how many times Nicholas and I tried to get > discussion of the distribution, we were just ignored. The > distribution of and in the SWF is as it is in KK. That is why > it is incoherent. It's not based on phonetic or phonemic principles. > It's based on George's etymologies. I don't accept that as sufficient. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 01:04:23 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 01:04:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 16:44 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry Corbett wrote: >What is the definition of "Traditional Cornish"? It would not include the orthography derived by George in 1984. Were you asking something else? -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Fri Jun 27 01:19:03 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 01:19:03 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486431F7.10007@freenet.co.uk> I would say that it can be defined as Cornish used by native speakers/writers and before revivalists started buggering around with it. Craig Terry Corbett wrote: > What is the definition of "Traditional Cornish"? > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Michael Everson > wrote: > > At 13:29 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry wrote: > >Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for > >discussion when the 5 year review occurs? > > As far as I am concerned they are open for discussion now. > > >These principles are listed as: > > > >1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish > should be > >able to write as they speak. > >2. *Accessibility *- The SWF should be as easy as possible for > speakers, > >learners, and teachers to learn and use. > >3. *Accuracy *- The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both > >traditional and Revived Cornish. > > I don't have any problem with these. > > >4. *Authenticity *- The SWF should use spellings that reflect > >established traditions of Cornish orthography. > > This is disingenuous. Indeed it is bollocks. Evidently the authors > believe -- or pretend to believe -- or want some people to believe > that they believe -- that KK is an "established tradition", which is > why and and <-i> were not simply thrown out as they ought > to have been. > > >5. *Continuity *- Where practical, the SWF should produce the > smallest > >possible number of changes for the largest possible number of > speakers. > > This "principle" was devised and added by the Arbitrator, and it is > likewise unacceptable, because it is clear that some choices were > made in order to produce few changes for KK users, since KK users > "are the largest number of speakers". The "principle" was not > discussed at either of the first two AHGs and when this appeared in > the first SWF draft, Agan Tavas and its Linguistic Advisors protested > and requested that the text be removed. > > The distribution of and is the worst example of this > "principle". No matter how many times Nicholas and I tried to get > discussion of the distribution, we were just ignored. The > distribution of and in the SWF is as it is in KK. That is why > it is incoherent. It's not based on phonetic or phonemic principles. > It's based on George's etymologies. I don't accept that as sufficient. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From teli7777 at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 01:28:47 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:28:47 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <486431F7.10007@freenet.co.uk> References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <486431F7.10007@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: Craig, I think that is a very good definition. Does anyone know what is meant by "Traditional Cornish" as used in the SWF principles? I don't understand what they mean by "pronunciation of traditional Cornish." Where in the continuum of Cornish does this begin? I can't imagine that anyone would propose that it includes Old Cornish. How is this pronunciation to be determined? KK advocates will insist that KK pronunciation is "traditional" even if the spelling is not. Terry On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Craig Weatherhill < weatherhill at freenet.co.uk> wrote: > I would say that it can be defined as Cornish used by native > speakers/writers and before revivalists started buggering around with it. > > Craig > > > Terry Corbett wrote: > > What is the definition of "Traditional Cornish"? > > > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Michael Everson > > wrote: > > > > At 13:29 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry wrote: > > >Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for > > >discussion when the 5 year review occurs? > > > > As far as I am concerned they are open for discussion now. > > > > >These principles are listed as: > > > > > >1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish > > should be > > >able to write as they speak. > > >2. *Accessibility *- The SWF should be as easy as possible for > > speakers, > > >learners, and teachers to learn and use. > > >3. *Accuracy *- The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both > > >traditional and Revived Cornish. > > > > I don't have any problem with these. > > > > >4. *Authenticity *- The SWF should use spellings that reflect > > >established traditions of Cornish orthography. > > > > This is disingenuous. Indeed it is bollocks. Evidently the authors > > believe -- or pretend to believe -- or want some people to believe > > that they believe -- that KK is an "established tradition", which is > > why and and <-i> were not simply thrown out as they ought > > to have been. > > > > >5. *Continuity *- Where practical, the SWF should produce the > > smallest > > >possible number of changes for the largest possible number of > > speakers. > > > > This "principle" was devised and added by the Arbitrator, and it is > > likewise unacceptable, because it is clear that some choices were > > made in order to produce few changes for KK users, since KK users > > "are the largest number of speakers". The "principle" was not > > discussed at either of the first two AHGs and when this appeared in > > the first SWF draft, Agan Tavas and its Linguistic Advisors protested > > and requested that the text be removed. > > > > The distribution of and is the worst example of this > > "principle". No matter how many times Nicholas and I tried to get > > discussion of the distribution, we were just ignored. The > > distribution of and in the SWF is as it is in KK. That is why > > it is incoherent. It's not based on phonetic or phonemic principles. > > It's based on George's etymologies. I don't accept that as > sufficient. > > -- > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 27 07:34:05 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:34:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <2E7A0431-5CA0-404D-A506-3B309A7CE23D@yahoo.co.uk> On 26 Jun 2008, at 23:00, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > Indeed, as you rightly say, it is flagrant "dewgell". KK is not an > "established tradition" by any stretch of the imagination. It is an > artificial construct devised just over 20 years ago . . An gwyr re leversysta, Craig. In fact, if that 'principal' were to be genuinely espoused by the SWF, it would be UC that would have a pre-eminent position in it, rather than KK: UC's 'established tradition' goes back a good 85 years. Ha ny ow kewsel, my a dyb 'flagrant bollocks' vya 'dewgell ow tywy' po '*loskdhewgell' yn Kernewek martesen! :D Eddie Foirbeis Climo eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Is s?os a' bhothar fada gun e?las 's a th?id sinn. Ahes an forth hyr hep wothvos y tremenynyn. It's the long and unknown road we pass along. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Fri Jun 27 08:45:53 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 08:45:53 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <486431F7.10007@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <48649AB1.4040904@freenet.co.uk> I'm currently working on how best to represent place-names in accordance with SWF principles for the purposes of road signage, etc. This affects "historic place-names", rather than names for new developments. My definition of an "historic place-name" is one that was established prior to the birth of the revival in 1904. With regard to new developments, my own view is that, if the site was open field in the 1840s (when the Tithe Apportionmant took place), research the field name and reuse it. Often, in West Cornwall, those names are already in Cornish and, if not, they can be translated. Sometimes, there are even older names, such as those recorded in the 1696 Lanhydrock Atlas. It's a policy that preserves the history of the site. Craig Terry Corbett wrote: > Craig, I think that is a very good definition. Does anyone know what > is meant by "Traditional Cornish" as used in the SWF principles? I > don't understand what they mean by "pronunciation of traditional > Cornish." Where in the continuum of Cornish does this begin? I can't > imagine that anyone would propose that it includes Old Cornish. How is > this pronunciation to be determined? KK advocates will insist that KK > pronunciation is "traditional" even if the spelling is not. > > Terry > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Craig Weatherhill > > wrote: > > I would say that it can be defined as Cornish used by native > speakers/writers and before revivalists started buggering around > with it. > > Craig > > > Terry Corbett wrote: > > What is the definition of "Traditional Cornish"? > > > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Michael Everson > > > >> wrote: > > > > At 13:29 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry wrote: > > >Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they > open for > > >discussion when the 5 year review occurs? > > > > As far as I am concerned they are open for discussion now. > > > > >These principles are listed as: > > > > > >1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish > > should be > > >able to write as they speak. > > >2. *Accessibility *- The SWF should be as easy as possible for > > speakers, > > >learners, and teachers to learn and use. > > >3. *Accuracy *- The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of > both > > >traditional and Revived Cornish. > > > > I don't have any problem with these. > > > > >4. *Authenticity *- The SWF should use spellings that reflect > > >established traditions of Cornish orthography. > > > > This is disingenuous. Indeed it is bollocks. Evidently the > authors > > believe -- or pretend to believe -- or want some people to > believe > > that they believe -- that KK is an "established tradition", > which is > > why and and <-i> were not simply thrown out as > they ought > > to have been. > > > > >5. *Continuity *- Where practical, the SWF should produce the > > smallest > > >possible number of changes for the largest possible number of > > speakers. > > > > This "principle" was devised and added by the Arbitrator, > and it is > > likewise unacceptable, because it is clear that some choices > were > > made in order to produce few changes for KK users, since KK > users > > "are the largest number of speakers". The "principle" was not > > discussed at either of the first two AHGs and when this > appeared in > > the first SWF draft, Agan Tavas and its Linguistic Advisors > protested > > and requested that the text be removed. > > > > The distribution of and is the worst example of this > > "principle". No matter how many times Nicholas and I tried > to get > > discussion of the distribution, we were just ignored. The > > distribution of and in the SWF is as it is in KK. > That is why > > it is incoherent. It's not based on phonetic or phonemic > principles. > > It's based on George's etymologies. I don't accept that as > sufficient. > > -- > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Spellyans mailing list > > Spellyans at kernowek.net > > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From njawilliams at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 09:36:50 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:36:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] short unstressed i Message-ID: I have shown that KK is completely incoherent in its distribution of the graphs and . Because the SWF MF has inherited much of KK the same incoherence is maintained, rather than simplified. If we take short unstressed i [I] for example, we notice that it is spelt with in some words and with in others. Here are some examples from Dan's dictionary: kunys 'firewood', palys 'palace' but gonis 'till ground, chalis 'chalice' kryjyk 'believing', krityk 'critic' but Mestresik 'Miss', meppik 'little boy' glesin 'lawn', kegin 'kitchen', kennin 'leeks' but termyn 'time', melyn 'yellow', kemmyn 'common' jentyl 'gentile' but krokodil 'crocodile'. These examples contained a short unstressed [I] after the main stresss. Pretonic [I] is equally chaotic. How do they expect anyone to learn this? Nicholas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 10:34:10 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:34:10 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <486431F7.10007@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: At 18:28 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry Corbett wrote: >Craig, I think that is a very good definition. >Does anyone know what is meant by "Traditional >Cornish" as used in the SWF principles? They don't capitalize "Traditional Cornish" as we do. What I mean by that is the written record we have. Now, we use that written record to inform Revived Cornish. As we learn more about it, we modify our recommendations. Nance didn't recognize the phoneme /?/; UCR put that right, and KK also implemented it. (As far as I know one of the ways we know that /y/ and /?/ which were distinct is that the former falls togethere with /i/ and the latter with /e/ in RLC. Does this not imply that 'pound' ought to be because in RLC is it ?) >I don't understand what they mean by "pronunciation of traditional Cornish." All we *know* about that is what Lhuyd gives us. The transcriptions in the SWF specification suggest that the authors are supporting George's reconstructions. Is this lip-service? I don't know. In our orthography (KS) we cannot support fictions. >Where in the continuum of Cornish does this >begin? I can't imagine that anyone would propose >that it includes Old Cornish. Everybody agrees that Old Cornish is a different language. One of the troubling things in the SWF specification is its undefined use of the word "etymological". >How is this pronunciation to be determined? KK >advocates will insist that KK pronunciation is >"traditional" even if the spelling is not. KK recommended pronunciation is not used by the majority of KK writers, including Ken George. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 11:35:29 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:35:29 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] short unstressed i In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 09:36 +0100 2008-06-27, nicholas williams wrote: >I have shown that KK is completely incoherent in its distribution of >the graphs and . >Because the SWF MF has inherited much of KK the same incoherence is >maintained, rather than simplified. One thing we had agreed for KS was to use what we called "etymological" spellings in final unstressed syllables. By this we meant that words like "colon", "holan", "pellen" would retain the vowel which re-appears when suffixes are added: "colonow", "holanow", "pellednow/pellennow". I am pretty sure that this notion of "etymological" spellings was conveyed by Andrew Climo to the AHG -- although the SWF specification uses a different meaning from the one we used, namely, that "etymological" should refer to George's (very uncertain in my view) reconstructed etymologies. I believe that we should continue with our understanding and not by any means be fettered by George's reconstructions. (Why should "onen" be changed to be written "onan"? because KK has it that way?) Having said that, Nicholas, what are the imolications for the words you list below: >If we take short unstressed i [I] for example, we notice that it is >spelt with in some words and with >in others. Here are some examples from Dan's dictionary: > >kunys 'firewood', palys 'palace' but gonis 'till ground, chalis 'chalice' > >kryjyk 'believing', krityk 'critic' but Mestresik 'Miss', meppik 'little boy' > >glesin 'lawn', kegin 'kitchen', kennin 'leeks' but termyn 'time', >melyn 'yellow', kemmyn 'common' > >jentyl 'gentile' but krokodil 'crocodile'. > >These examples contained a short unstressed [I] after the main >stresss. Pretonic [I] is equally chaotic. > >How do they expect anyone to learn this? -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From j.mills at email.com Fri Jun 27 14:56:13 2008 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:56:13 +0000 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles Message-ID: <20080627135613.BF58232675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> It is Cornish that has a tradition. I suppose you could say that there has been a tradition of KK for the past 20 years. So the term is fairly ambiguous. In fact its a fairly meaningless cliche, rather like 'farm eggs' (what eggs are not produced on farms), 'desirable residence', etc. Jon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF principles > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 01:04:23 +0100 > > > At 16:44 -0600 2008-06-26, Terry Corbett wrote: > > > What is the definition of "Traditional Cornish"? > > It would not include the orthography derived by George in 1984. Were > you asking something else? > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, School of European Culture and Languages, University of Kent -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com From ajtrim at msn.com Fri Jun 27 15:02:23 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:02:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com><1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com><1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael, I have managed to unlock the PDF document that I previously posted. It shows square boxes for and after transmission by e-mail. Document locking during PDF creation has been set up on my laptop as an automatic security feature. It was not designed for this kind of collaboration. However, it is useful because what you see is what you get, and you can be more sure that nothing has changed in transmission. I had to unlock this on a different computer. When I did, a log file was produced -- both files attached. What does this mean for our use of diacritical marks? I'm not sure. I think we are OK as far as people writing text is concerned. Users will find a way that works for them, and printing should not be a problem. I think that we must accept that electronic transmission of diacritical marks may produce unexpected odd results from time to time. Angle brackets can do that too. Users of other languages must have had this problem. Do they ignore it or do they have a solution? Are we doing something wrong? Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:25 AM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] + diacritical > At 10:18 +0100 2008-06-26, A. J. Trim wrote: >>Most of the problems that I have seen regarding >>diacritical marks have been caused during >>e-mail. Please see my PDF file that I posted >>yesterday. It shows e-mail failure for e and y >>with the dieresis. > > It shows that Steve Tinney's e-mail client took > the ? and ? which I sent out and converted it > into another encoding; perhaps UTF-8 or UTF-16? I > know that I received them on my non-Unicode > e-mail client as question marks. You received > them as boxes. Because you had locked the PDF, I > was unable to select the character and find out > what you had received. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlmailhtml_{729EB7E8-7044-459A-85E6-640DF54D8D99}mid___00000207.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 72158 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlmailhtml_{729EB7E8-7044-459A-85E6-640DF54D8D99}mid___00000207.log Type: application/octet-stream Size: 746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 15:32:21 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:32:21 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> Craig has mentioned Keigwin's writings a couple of times on this list. I've also been quite interested in Keigwin since I read what Jenner had to say about him, but alas I've had to return Handbook of the Cornish Language to the library years ago. Where can we get hold of Keigwin's writings? www.moderncornish.co.uk has only two, King Charles' letter to the Cornish and a few verses from Creacon of the World (which I've copied below). Both appear to be in the original spellings, at least. Where can we get hold of further texts, if there are any? ~~Owen ===== John Keigwin c.1707 King Charles First's Letter An woolok da disquethys an Pow Kernow ganz y brosterath an kensa Mightern Charles el boz gweethes in disquethyans es umma sywya dewelas. Charles Mightern. Ytho ny mar ughell kemerys gans an peth yw moigh vel mear pernys theworth ny gans agan Pow Kernow; an karenze y the gwitha saw agan honen; han gwir composter agan curyn; en termyn a alga ny dry mar nebaz tha gan sawder; po aga gwerhas y ; yn termyn pan na eyagh gober vyth boz gwelys; mez wherriow braz peroghas, gowsas gerriow tyn erbyn gwylvry, ha kollonnow leall; aga braz hag ughell kolonwith; ha ga perthyans heb squthder yth mar vraz wheal erbyn mar cref tuz a drok; scoothyes gans mar gay trevow lean a tuz ha mar tek teklys gans clethyow, arghans, dafyr lathva ha kenyver ehan a booz daber: ha gans an merthus sawynyans o both Dew ol gallouseck (saw gans coll a ran tuz a brys neb ny vyth nefra gans nt ankevys) the talvega ga kolonnow leall, ha ga perthyans mysk leas merthus omdowlow war tuz a drok thens y ha ny en ate ol pederyans mab-den had ol an drokter alga boz kevys; kepare ny yll ny ankevy mar vraz galarow; yndella ny yll ny buz gawas bonogath da, the kaws da anothans then bys, ha perricof yn oll termen aga oberrow da, han kemeryanz da ny anothans: Ha rag henna theren ry agan mighterneth gorseans then pow na; gans ughella lef; ha en forth a ell moygha dyrrya; hag a ellen kavas mez; Ha theren ry ger fatel reys than ha vaterow a hemma boz screfys gans oleow horen ha danvenys aleaz, ha pregowthyes yn mynz egliz, ha lan es enna, ha boz gwethys enna bys vican yn cof: polla (mar pell tra clap an terminnyow ma han wlas dyrria) an cof kemmys es pernys the worthan ny han Curyn ny gans an pow na: boz tennys meas than Fleghys es tha denithy: reys yn gweal milchamath ny yn Castell Sudley yn dekvas dyth mys heddra in blethan myll whegh cans dewgans ha try (BM.Add.MSS.28,554,f.139) OC oct 1926 ====== John Keigwin c.1698 Extract from Gwreans an Bys An dyth ma yw an dyth Dew an Tas don worthyans Neb yn gwelyn yn perfyth Leeas tra war feys dyblans Hag oll an bysma an gwreans Ynweth why a welys Oll an bys destriys Gans an trom deal Dean vyth heb sparya Mes Noy ha wreg ha flehes Deugh why omma ware avorow Brassa why a weal oberow Der Dew an Tas gevyans grontys Tha neb yw der pegh kelles Gwreuth an menstrells ol tha pyba Mollen ny warbarth daunsya Kepare yw an for yn gwary Respelt by John Keigwin From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Fri Jun 27 16:00:33 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:00:33 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language Steve Quoting Owen Cook : > Craig has mentioned Keigwin's writings a couple of times on this list. > I've also been quite interested in Keigwin since I read what Jenner > had to say about him, but alas I've had to return Handbook of the > Cornish Language to the library years ago. Where can we get hold of > Keigwin's writings? www.moderncornish.co.uk has only two, King > Charles' letter to the Cornish and a few verses from Creacon of the > World (which I've copied below). Both appear to be in the original > spellings, at least. Where can we get hold of further texts, if there > are any? > > ~~Owen > > ===== > > John Keigwin c.1707 > King Charles First's Letter > > An woolok da disquethys an Pow Kernow ganz y brosterath an kensa > Mightern Charles el boz gweethes in disquethyans es umma sywya > dewelas. Charles Mightern. > Ytho ny mar ughell kemerys gans an peth yw moigh vel mear pernys > theworth ny gans agan Pow Kernow; an karenze y the gwitha saw agan > honen; han gwir composter agan curyn; en termyn a alga ny dry mar > nebaz tha gan sawder; po aga gwerhas y ; yn termyn pan na eyagh gober > vyth boz gwelys; mez wherriow braz peroghas, gowsas gerriow tyn erbyn > gwylvry, ha kollonnow leall; aga braz hag ughell kolonwith; ha ga > perthyans heb squthder yth mar vraz wheal erbyn mar cref tuz a drok; > scoothyes gans mar gay trevow lean a tuz ha mar tek teklys gans > clethyow, arghans, dafyr lathva ha kenyver ehan a booz daber: ha gans > an merthus sawynyans o both Dew ol gallouseck (saw gans coll a ran tuz > a brys neb ny vyth nefra gans nt ankevys) the talvega ga kolonnow > leall, ha ga perthyans mysk leas merthus omdowlow war tuz a drok thens > y ha ny en ate ol pederyans mab-den had ol an drokter alga boz kevys; > kepare ny yll ny ankevy mar vraz galarow; yndella ny yll ny buz gawas > bonogath da, the kaws da anothans then bys, ha perricof yn oll termen > aga oberrow da, han kemeryanz da ny anothans: Ha rag henna theren ry > agan mighterneth gorseans then pow na; gans ughella lef; ha en forth a > ell moygha dyrrya; hag a ellen kavas mez; Ha theren ry ger fatel reys > than ha vaterow a hemma boz screfys gans oleow horen ha danvenys > aleaz, ha pregowthyes yn mynz egliz, ha lan es enna, ha boz gwethys > enna bys vican yn cof: polla (mar pell tra clap an terminnyow ma han > wlas dyrria) an cof kemmys es pernys the worthan ny han Curyn ny gans > an pow na: boz tennys meas than Fleghys es tha denithy: reys yn gweal > milchamath ny yn Castell Sudley yn dekvas dyth mys heddra in blethan > myll whegh cans dewgans ha try > (BM.Add.MSS.28,554,f.139) OC oct 1926 > > ====== > > John Keigwin c.1698 > Extract from Gwreans an Bys > > An dyth ma yw an dyth > Dew an Tas don worthyans > Neb yn gwelyn yn perfyth > Leeas tra war feys dyblans > Hag oll an bysma an gwreans > Ynweth why a welys > Oll an bys destriys > Gans an trom deal > Dean vyth heb sparya > Mes Noy ha wreg ha flehes > Deugh why omma ware avorow > Brassa why a weal oberow > Der Dew an Tas gevyans grontys > Tha neb yw der pegh kelles > Gwreuth an menstrells ol tha pyba > Mollen ny warbarth daunsya > Kepare yw an for yn gwary > > Respelt by John Keigwin > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 16:04:23 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:04:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 11:00 -0400 2008-06-27, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: >You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language I wonder if Jenner should be reprinted. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From stinney at sas.upenn.edu Fri Jun 27 16:14:37 2008 From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:14:37 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Michael Everson : > At 11:00 -0400 2008-06-27, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > >You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: > > > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language > > I wonder if Jenner should be reprinted. Perhaps, though the PDF is quite readable. A facsimile reprint of Lhuyd would be a Great Good, I think. It would just need someone who is willing to sacrifice an original, or who could contribute an original whose binding is already in poor condition. Steve From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 16:29:20 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:29:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 11:14 -0400 2008-06-27, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > > I wonder if Jenner should be reprinted. > >Perhaps, though the PDF is quite readable. Not nearly as nice as a book. ;-) >A facsimile reprint of Lhuyd would be a Great Good, I think. It >would just need someone who is willing to sacrifice an original, or >who could contribute an original whose binding is already in poor >condition. I wouldn't sacrifice my original... it needs rebinding not because the spine or stitching is in bad shape, but because it was re-bound in 1955 in an icky university leatherette. Now that Unicode has all of Lhuyd's characters, however, the book could be re-published verbatim if it were keyed in. (Though one might have to choose whether to preserve the long s or not as it often interferes with reading for most modern readers.) -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 17:16:40 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:16:40 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806270916p34d54318l71dbf6a16ce066c3@mail.gmail.com> Joy! I hadn't known this. Thanks very much. And it's scanned from my alma mater, too. Ah, the happy hours I spent in the malodorous corridors of Robarts library. ~~Owen 2008/6/27 rug scrifa: > You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language > > Steve From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Fri Jun 27 17:53:33 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:53:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <48651B0D.40300@freenet.co.uk> Why ever not? I have a first edition here - still have a very soft spot for his orthography, diacriticals and all. Wouldn't it be nice to produce a 1904 Handbook - and a new one. Just a thought. Craig Michael Everson wrote: > At 11:00 -0400 2008-06-27, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > >> You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: >> >> http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language >> > > I wonder if Jenner should be reprinted. > From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Fri Jun 27 17:59:48 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:59:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806270916p34d54318l71dbf6a16ce066c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <6e5d3b9f0806270916p34d54318l71dbf6a16ce066c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48651C84.7000902@freenet.co.uk> What a useful site. I was enjoying the Williams (Robert, that is) dictionary. Craig Owen Cook wrote: > Joy! I hadn't known this. Thanks very much. And it's scanned from my > alma mater, too. Ah, the happy hours I spent in the malodorous > corridors of Robarts library. > > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/27 rug scrifa: > >> You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: >> >> http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language >> >> Steve >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From teli7777 at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 18:09:52 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:09:52 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: A PDF of Lhuyd's Archaeologia Britannica is online at Google Books. On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 9:14 AM, wrote: > Quoting Michael Everson : > > > At 11:00 -0400 2008-06-27, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > > >You can Jenner (not Keigwin) and several other interesting things at: > > > > > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=cornish%20language > > > > I wonder if Jenner should be reprinted. > > Perhaps, though the PDF is quite readable. A facsimile reprint of Lhuyd > would > be a Great Good, I think. It would just need someone who is willing to > sacrifice an original, or who could contribute an original whose binding is > already in poor condition. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 18:28:29 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:28:29 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 11:09 -0600 2008-06-27, Terry Corbett wrote: >A PDF of Lhuyd's Archaeologia Britannica is online at Google Books. It is here: http://books.google.com/books?id=cZANAAAAQAAJ Though I still think it would be nice to have a modern edition of it. It would be a fair bit of typing though. ;-) Actually I do have Pages 222-224 typed in; I should finish correcting that. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From teli7777 at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 19:48:51 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:48:51 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <20080627135613.BF58232675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20080627135613.BF58232675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Indeed the whole "principle "3. Accuracy ? The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both traditional and Revived Cornish." seems very vague. If it is trying to say that KK pronunciation has to been included even though few actually pronounce Cornish that way it needs to be more specific. Otherwise I don't see the need for "principle 3". On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Jon Mills wrote: > It is Cornish that has a tradition. I suppose you could say that there has > been a tradition of KK for the past 20 years. So the term is fairly > ambiguous. In fact its a fairly meaningless cliche, rather like 'farm eggs' > (what eggs are not produced on farms), 'desirable residence', etc. > Jon > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teli7777 at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 19:54:08 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:54:08 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am also concerned with "principle 5. Since no one seems to have any accurate facts regarding how many people use any of the different Cornish orthographies how can this be evaluated? I should think that "pinciples" 3 and five should be removed. On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Terry wrote: > Are the 5 principles of the SWF set in stone or are they open for > discussion when the 5 year review occurs?These principles are listed as: > > 1. *Inclusivity *? Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish should be able > to write as they speak. > 2. *Accessibility *? The SWF should be as easy as possible for speakers, > learners, and teachers to learn and use. > 3. *Accuracy *? The SWF should reflect the pronunciation of both > traditional and Revived Cornish. > 4. *Authenticity *? The SWF should use spellings that reflect established > traditions of Cornish orthography. > 5. *Continuity *? Where practical, the SWF should produce the smallest > possible number of changes for the largest possible number of speakers. > > Terry > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 20:07:32 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:07:32 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <20080627135613.BF58232675A@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: At 12:48 -0600 2008-06-27, Terry Corbett wrote: >Indeed the whole "principle "3. Accuracy - The SWF should reflect >the pronunciation of both traditional and Revived Cornish." seems >very vague. If it is trying to say that KK pronunciation has to been >included even though few actually pronounce Cornish that way it >needs to be more specific. Otherwise I don't see the need for >"principle 3". To me it means we should ensure that the orthography gives enough information that the reader (who learns the rules or can look them up while learning) can work out how to pronounce a word correctly modulo his preferred dialect. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 20:09:24 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:09:24 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:54 -0600 2008-06-27, Terry Corbett wrote: >I am also concerned with "principle 5. Since no one seems to have >any accurate facts regarding how many people use any of the >different Cornish orthographies how can this be evaluated? I should >think that "pinciples" 3 and five should be removed. See my previous message for a defence of Principle 3. (Though "traditional" is superfluous there. The dead are not using KS.) Principle 5 is what caused the Arbitrator to reject some of the suggestions we are discussing on this list. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From teli7777 at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 20:15:04 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:15:04 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: The wording you use should replace that in "principle" 3. Your wording makes sense, the present wording doesn't. Terry On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > At 12:54 -0600 2008-06-27, Terry Corbett wrote: > >I am also concerned with "principle 5. Since no one seems to have > >any accurate facts regarding how many people use any of the > >different Cornish orthographies how can this be evaluated? I should > >think that "pinciples" 3 and five should be removed. > > See my previous message for a defence of Principle 3. (Though > "traditional" is superfluous there. The dead are not using KS.) > > Principle 5 is what caused the Arbitrator to reject some of the > suggestions we are discussing on this list. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 20:24:14 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:24:14 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 13:15 -0600 2008-06-27, Terry Corbett wrote: >The wording you use should replace that in "principle" 3. Your >wording makes sense, the present wording doesn't. Should these principles be adopted or cited in KS? -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 21:56:58 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:56:58 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <643A96EE-E4E6-4350-8090-9D58DE604B93@gmail.com> Lhuyd was reprinted by the Irish Academic Press in 1970. That is the copy I have. Nicholas ------------ On 27 Jun 2008, at 16:29, Michael Everson wrote: > At 11:14 -0400 2008-06-27, stinney at sas.upenn.edu wrote: > >>> I wonder if Jenner should be reprinted. >> >> Perhaps, though the PDF is quite readable. > > Not nearly as nice as a book. ;-) > >> A facsimile reprint of Lhuyd would be a Great Good, I think. It >> would just need someone who is willing to sacrifice an original, or >> who could contribute an original whose binding is already in poor >> condition. > > I wouldn't sacrifice my original... it needs rebinding not because > the spine or stitching is in bad shape, but because it was re-bound > in 1955 in an icky university leatherette. > > Now that Unicode has all of Lhuyd's characters, however, the book > could be re-published verbatim if it were keyed in. (Though one might > have to choose whether to preserve the long s or not as it often > interferes with reading for most modern readers.) > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From njawilliams at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 22:01:27 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:01:27 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] short unstressed i In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 Jun 2008, at 11:35, Michael Everson wrote: > At 09:36 +0100 2008-06-27, nicholas williams wrote: >> I have shown that KK is completely incoherent in its distribution of >> the graphs and . >> Because the SWF MF has inherited much of KK the same incoherence is >> maintained, rather than simplified. > > One thing we had agreed for KS was to use what we called > "etymological" spellings in final unstressed syllables. By this we > meant that words like "colon", "holan", "pellen" would retain the > vowel which re-appears when suffixes are added: "colonow", "holanow", > "pellednow/pellennow". > > I am pretty sure that this notion of "etymological" spellings was > conveyed by Andrew Climo to the AHG -- although the SWF specification > uses a different meaning from the one we used, namely, that > "etymological" should refer to George's (very uncertain in my view) > reconstructed etymologies. I believe that we should continue with our > understanding and not by any means be fettered by George's > reconstructions. (Why should "onen" be changed to be written "onan"? > because KK has it that way?) > > Having said that, Nicholas, what are the imolications for the words > you list below: > >> If we take short unstressed i [I] for example, we notice that it is >> spelt with in some words and with >> in others. Here are some examples from Dan's dictionary: >> >> kunys 'firewood', palys 'palace' but gonis 'till ground, chalis >> 'chalice' There is not reason for the difference in spelling. I cannot see what would be wrong with gonys and chalys. >> >> >> kryjyk 'believing', krityk 'critic' but Mestresik 'Miss', meppik >> 'little boy' KK and SWF use -ik for diminutives and -yk for the adjectival ending. I should spell meppyk and Mestresyk as did Nance. >> >> >> glesin 'lawn', kegin 'kitchen', kennin 'leeks' but termyn 'time', >> melyn 'yellow', kemmyn 'common' Why not glesyn, kegyn and kenyn? They are so spelt in UC and UCR >> >> >> jentyl 'gentile' but krokodil 'crocodile'. I cannot see what is wrong with crocodyl/krokodyl. >> >> >> These examples contained a short unstressed [I] after the main >> stresss. Pretonic [I] is equally chaotic. >> >> How do they expect anyone to learn this? The rule ought to be that plurals and derivatives of i-words should retain i: tir tiryow, gwir, gwiryoneth. Elsewhere the default symbol for short i should be y. Nicholas >> > > > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 22:10:45 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:10:45 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: <643A96EE-E4E6-4350-8090-9D58DE604B93@gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <643A96EE-E4E6-4350-8090-9D58DE604B93@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 21:56 +0100 2008-06-27, nicholas williams wrote: >Lhuyd was reprinted by the Irish Academic Press in 1970. That is the >copy I have. Yes, but that is no longer in print. and is just a facsimile. I was just wondering if a re-edition would be interesting to people. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 22:22:02 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:22:02 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] short unstressed i In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 22:01 +0100 2008-06-27, nicholas williams wrote: >>Having said that, Nicholas, what are the imolications for the words >>you list below: >> >>>If we take short unstressed i [I] for example, we notice that it >>>is spelt with in some words and with in others. Here are >>>some examples from Dan's dictionary: >>> >>>kunys 'firewood', palys 'palace' but gonis 'till ground, chalis 'chalice' > >There is not reason for the difference in spelling. I cannot see >what would be wrong with gonys and chalys. > >kryjyk 'believing', krityk 'critic' but Mestresik 'Miss', meppik 'little boy' > >KK and SWF use -ik for diminutives and -yk for the adjectival ending. >I should spell meppyk and Mestresyk as did Nance. What are the plurals? >>>glesin 'lawn', kegin 'kitchen', kennin 'leeks' but termyn 'time', >>>melyn 'yellow', kemmyn 'common' > >Why not glesyn, kegyn and kenyn? They are so spelt in UC and UCR What are the plurals? >>>jentyl 'gentile' but krokodil 'crocodile'. > >I cannot see what is wrong with crocodyl/krokodyl. What, again, are the plurals or other derivative forms? What is the transcription of crocodyl? Where is the stress? In German: [krOkO'di:l] In English: ['krOk at dail] Cornish? >>>These examples contained a short unstressed [I] after the main >>>stresss. Pretonic [I] is equally chaotic. How do they expect >>>anyone to learn this? > >The rule ought to be that plurals and derivatives of i-words should >retain i: tir tiryow, gwir, gwiryoneth. We've got that. >Elsewhere the default symbol for short i should be y. I am just wondering if [i:] crops up in any of the derivative forms, as in colon/colonow. That would be a reason for in final unstressed syllables. We should be consistent here. If no [i:] appears, no problem. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Fri Jun 27 23:30:24 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:30:24 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <48656A00.6040206@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 23:30:39 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:30:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] i and y Message-ID: KS uses in long monosyllables, e.g. gwir, tir. It also (like the SWF) retains the in derivatives, e.g. gwiryon, tiryow. Elsewhere is used everywhere for short i: gwydn/gwynn, termyn, dysqwedhes. KS writes sacryfia 'to sacrifice' and j?styfia, where the is unstressed and short and is the stressed diphthong or sequence of i: + @. KS also writes i in initial position: istyna 'stretch', isel 'low', imaj 'image'. KS also distinguishes in, the preposition 'in' and its derivatives (indelma, indella, inwedh) from yn the adverbial particle. Thus KS writes in gwir 'indeed, in truth' but yn t? 'well'. Notice, incidentally, that KS writes isel 'low' but ?s 'corn', because ?s can also be written. This distribution of the two graphs and is clear and unambiguous. It is also easy to remember. There is one slight problem. The word 'in' outside the third person is inflected inof, inos and inon, inowgh. If we write this would be pre-occluded and forms with final -o do not pre-occlude (in the traditional language they are too early). The third singular feminine can be written since such a form is attested: vgy y vab Jhesus crist inhy tregys TH 11a and cf. me a weall sure vn gwethan ha serpent vnhy avadn CW 1808-09. We cannot, however, write * nor even since neither is attested. We can write 'in them' with a single for such is well attested (both with initial y and i): gothvethis ha gwelys ynans y TH 14 vgy faith an tasow coth a vam egglys in an sy SA 59a. It is very likely indeed that inho/ynho and indeed innho/ynnho 'in him' occurred. This unattested form is what lies behind eta 'in him' in Late Cornish: idnho > itno > itna > ita/eta: menz bos bounas eta ha ma res gennam kanifer lushan glaz rag boaz John Boson. If, however, we write ganso, dhodho, warnodho we can hardly write eta. We must write a form in -o (which can be pronounced as though it were -a i.e. schwa, if required). That means ino. But ino (and inof, inos, inon, inowgh) are all unattested. The forms are ynnof/inno ve/innaff, ynnos, ynnon/innan, inno why. If we write innof, innos, inno, innon, innowgh why, innans, such forms will be pre-occluded although pre-occlusion is never found in them. If we write inof, inos, ino, inon, inowgh we will be writing forms that are wholly unattested. Nicholas ----------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 23:41:55 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:41:55 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: <48656A00.6040206@orange.fr> References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> <48656A00.6040206@orange.fr> Message-ID: At 00:30 +0200 2008-06-28, Koumanonff wrote: >But don't you have some children who've been brought up in Cornish? About a dozen. >That's Cornish, whatever "Cornish" it might be it's Cornish. Not sufficient for orthography design. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Fri Jun 27 23:50:13 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:50:13 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C-3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail.gmail.com><1214443479.4862efd7c4e14@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <48656EA5.8040306@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Jun 27 23:56:47 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:56:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: <48656EA5.8040306@orange.fr> References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sa s.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C- 3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail. gmail.com><1214443479.4862efd7c4e14 @webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <48656EA5.8040306@orange.fr> Message-ID: At 00:50 +0200 2008-06-28, Koumanonff wrote: >You should know that whe do use diacrises, but when we use >electronic devices as messageries, Google, it's better not use them, >and some of us don't. Lucky of us, French is known enough, so >Internet and others don't mind. >As it is, I think that diacrises is good for teaching but you don't >want it would be welcome after a sort of use of them. When people >would be taught they won't do any use of them. I don't agree. In Irish, in French, in Hungarian, in German, in Spanish, people use diacritics every day. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From koumanonff at orange.fr Sat Jun 28 00:10:08 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:10:08 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] short unstressed i In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48657350.2060403@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koumanonff at orange.fr Sat Jun 28 00:28:07 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:28:07 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF principles In-Reply-To: References: <4863EE14.90905@gmail.com> <4864118C.90608@freenet.co.uk> <48656A00.6040206@orange.fr> Message-ID: <48657787.5070200@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From koumanonff at orange.fr Sat Jun 28 00:45:01 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:45:01 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] + diacritical In-Reply-To: References: <20080625085531.B969DBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com><1214398553.486240590f0a6@webmail.sa s.upenn.edu><4B39AFD7-7A3B-4801-979C- 3CEC561216B1@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0806251112l550c942ep634e9c556f4e9eda@mail. gmail.com><1214443479.4862efd7c4e14 @webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <48656EA5.8040306@orange.fr> Message-ID: <48657B7D.60109@orange.fr> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 28 08:27:12 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:27:12 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EC1DF7E-218F-4CD5-9FCE-5BE356C7B4AE@yahoo.co.uk> On 24 Jun 2008, at 14:59, Owen Cook wrote: > 2008/6/24 A. J. Trim : >> The Late Cornish chei, kei, crei could be written chy, ky, cry. >> Final could be an umbrella graph for the <-i> & <-ei> of the >> current >> SWF, and the result looks more authentically based on Tudor spelling. > > Yes, I agree with this suggestion too. Late Cornish may choose to write 'chei, kei, crei', but I shall not. > Actually, Jenner wrote y-circumflex in such items, and personally I > think this would be the best solution for our purposes as well. > (Michael, however, will raise font limitations as an objection. > Personally, I rarely use a font unless it has extensive Unicode > support, so this is irrelevant to me, but there's probably something > to it for the majority of Cornish users.) (1) I use whatever legal fonts I can get my hands on, and some older ones are available cheaply. Moreover, as MacOS X is agnostic on the matter, I run both Mac and Windows fonts. (2) I can't afford to buy new, Unicode-compliant replacements for all my favourite older fonts. (3) My fonts vary enormously in which of the more 'exotic' characters and accents they offer. It's not realistic for me to have to inspect every single font before I use it to see which of the accented s it contains. For example, looking at a few of the many fonts installed on my Mac, I find this: > Arrow: umlaut - lower case only > > Baskerville: umlaut, acute > > Times: umlaut, acute, circumflex, macron, dot above, grave, > dot below, and loads of double and triple diacritics I've never > seen before. (4) MacOS comes with a pretty good bundle of fonts, but they also vary enormously in the repertoire of characters each one offers. If KS is going to have an accented , then the only solution I can see is the one I mentioned earlier: have a recommended accent, but accept any other accent (or none) if that's all an individual can get on their computer. Eddie Foirbeis Climo eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Is s?os a' bhothar fada gun e?las 's a th?id sinn. Ahes an forth hyr hep wothvos y tremenynyn. It's the long and unknown road we pass along. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 09:26:39 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:26:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] i and y Message-ID: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> Gonis has in the SWF because of gonis in KK. KK has gonis because of gounid in Breton. The unstressed vowel should be , since it frequently appears as , e.g. gones CW 1080, gonethys 'worked' BM 4392 and cf. gonesugy 'workers' x 3. Palys 'palace' is attested x 3 in BM. Palas 'palace' occurs once in BK. I should spell it palys, plural 'palycys; cf. palys, palysys Nance. Chalys is attested x 4 in SA as chalys. Nance gives chalys, chalysys. I should write chalys, chalycys. Nance gives crocod?l. If we adopt this in KS we should write crocodil, crocod?lys. I wd be quite happy with cro?codyl, crocody?lys. SWF has krytyk but meppik because KK has. KK writes meppik, mestresik because the diminutive ending in Breton is -ig, e.g. Soazig, tammig, etc. This is no reason to interfere with Cornish. Little children is flehysygow at OM 1868 and 'little horns' is gernygov at BM 3396. I write meppyk and mestresyk. Incidentally SWF has glin 'knee' and dewlin, dowlin knees. I prefer glin, dewlyn; cf. leuv, dewla where the unstressed form is reduced (cf. W llaw but dwylo). Nicholas From teli7777 at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 11:45:31 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 04:45:31 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: <4EC1DF7E-218F-4CD5-9FCE-5BE356C7B4AE@yahoo.co.uk> References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> <4EC1DF7E-218F-4CD5-9FCE-5BE356C7B4AE@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: There is a free unicode font Doulos SIL at the SIL site http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=DoulosSILfont&_sc=1. They have other unicode fonts, all of which are free and may be legally modified. Terry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teli7777 at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 11:49:49 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 04:49:49 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] i and y In-Reply-To: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> References: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since principle 1 of the SWF states (1. *Inclusivity *? Users of all varieties of Revived Cornish should be able to write as they speak.) then why aren't all of these words spelled with a < y > ? Terry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Sat Jun 28 12:24:32 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:24:32 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] i and y In-Reply-To: References: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 04:49 -0600 2008-06-28, Terry Corbett wrote: >Since principle 1 of the SWF states (1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all >varieties of Revived Cornish should be able to write as they speak.) >then why aren't all of these words spelled with a < y > ? Because "they" decided that KK should be the default wordlist. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From teli7777 at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 12:38:54 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 05:38:54 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] i and y In-Reply-To: References: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> Message-ID: KK recommends the pronunciation ['gO.nIs] so if KK speakers are to be able to write as they speak the spelling should be < gonys >. The same for all the other KK unstressed [ I ] s. "They need to stick to "their " principles. On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 5:24 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > At 04:49 -0600 2008-06-28, Terry Corbett wrote: > > >Since principle 1 of the SWF states (1. *Inclusivity *- Users of all > >varieties of Revived Cornish should be able to write as they speak.) > >then why aren't all of these words spelled with a < y > ? > > Because "they" decided that KK should be the default wordlist. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ajtrim at msn.com Sat Jun 28 15:14:21 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:14:21 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] y & i Message-ID: As you will know, there is a problem with the SWF: Problem: The SWF attempts to be phonemic yet we have three graphs for [I] and the same three graphs for [i:]. These are , , and . We can tell whether these vowels are long or short from their following consonant (with a few listable exceptions.) We may need because some people pronounce it through rounded lips-so, for them, it is different. Unified Cornish otherwise used only . Why then do we need to use as well as ? It has been suggested that should be used for [I] and should be for [i:]. That seemed like a good idea, that is until you realise that has to be changed to when an ending is added, e.g. gwir, gwyryoneth; tir, tyryow. The alternative would be to retain anomalously as [I], e.g. gwiryoneth and tiryow. We have unstressed final [I] which is anomalously<-i> instead of <-y>, e.g. gweli "bed", though the SWF does also allow gwely. Middle Cornish folk have stressed final [i:] which is correctly <-i>, e.g. chi "house" but which was traditionally <-y>, and Late Cornish folk have stressed final [@i:] which is anomalously allowed to be <-ei>. We also have many bys/bes words, where the is anomalously [i:] (because it should be ) and may be [e:], and where may anomalously be [i:] if it's not being an [e:]. All this is unnecessary complicated, and I would find it difficult to support the SWF if it stayed like this. Possible Solution: Middle Cornish folk should use (long or short), as did UC, but now with the new vowel length rules, e.g. gwyr, gwyryoneth; tyr, tyryow. Late Cornish folk should use (long or short), e.g. gwir, gwiryoneth; tir, tiryow. Everybody should spell all words having stressed <-i>/<-y> in the current SWF by using <-y>. This would be an umbrella graph for [i:]/[@i:]. Middle Cornish folk could use the unused letter in the bys/bes words, e.g. bis, didh, pris, where the is an umbrella for /. ("Until" would still be bys. This has a short vowel because it is unstressed.) Late Cornish folk could use their unused letter , e.g. bys, dydh, prys. ("Until" would for them be bis. This has a short vowel because it is unstressed.) Disadvantages: 1) / will sometimes be [e:]. These are counter intuitive graphs for this sound. However, once learnt, they would be regular. Only one of these two counter intuitive graphs would occur in each of the two registers, so the user would need to use only one of them. 2) Both Middle Cornish folk and Late Cornish folk would want to use for [i:@]. For Middle Cornish folk, this would be an anomaly.but, in my view, this would be justified. Advantages: 1) Middle Cornish folk get the decreased number of that they have requested. 2) Late Cornish folk get the increased number of that they have requested. 3) The register (Late or Middle) can be identified from whether the text is -heavy or -heavy. 4) If you know which register is being used, you know how to pronounce each vowel. 5) The vowel does not change, and no anomalies are created, when endings are added. 6) Words traditionally ending <-y> would be more traditionally spelt, and they would not need to be re-spelt for the Late register. 7) There are no diacritical marks required for the bys/bes words. 8) There are no new or strange graphs that have to be added to the SWF. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Sat Jun 28 15:19:15 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:19:15 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] y & i In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 15:14 +0100 2008-06-28, A. J. Trim wrote: >That seemed like a good idea, that is until you realise that has >to be changed to when an ending is added, e.g. gwir, gwyryoneth; >tir, tyryow. > >The alternative would be to retain anomalously as [I], e.g. >gwiryoneth and tiryow. This is what we have. is [i:] and is {I] in monosyllables and their derivatives. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 18:39:21 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:39:21 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] y & i In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95BADD28-F844-4611-B818-141CCF338E7D@gmail.com> as an umbrella graph for our ? or ?? I don't think so. There would be too much confusion. Nicholas From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 19:08:33 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:08:33 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Keigwin In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806270732k373afe73kd0f92e9429a4b43b@mail.gmail.com> <1214578833.486500910ca55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <1214579677.486503dd660a0@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806281108w6c69f191r33fccbe6c7ac871e@mail.gmail.com> So there is! Brilliant! Here's a link for anyone else interested: http://books.google.ca/books?id=cZANAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22archaeologia+britannica%22+%22edward+lhuyd%22&lr=&hl=fr#PRA1-PA277,M1 The Cornish stuff begins on p.248 in the Google Books PDF numbering scheme (wrong, by the way -- it's really p.222). Well, it looks like the internet is worth some good after all. ;-) Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen 2008/6/27 Terry Corbett rug scrifa: > A PDF of Lhuyd's Archaeologia Britannica is online at Google Books. From njawilliams at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 23:00:06 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:00:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist Message-ID: Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation [kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . On the other hand Dan's dictionary gives Krist, Crist 'Christ' and gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. Other words with and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist 'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? Nicholas From everson at evertype.com Sun Jun 29 01:26:46 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 01:26:46 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 23:00 +0100 2008-06-28, nicholas williams wrote: >Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation >[kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . >On the other hand Dan's dictionary gives Krist, Crist 'Christ' and >gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. >Other words with and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist >'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? Of course it should! -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Sun Jun 29 08:45:53 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 08:45:53 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48673DB1.4020002@freenet.co.uk> My point entirely, Nicholas. It is utterly confusing, especially to those poor people who will be attempting to learn the language. Surely, it would have made much more sense to reserve y for the short vowel (and in final position) and i for the long one. Nice and easy for all, and could have been learned easily and with confidence. I thought that KK did this, but examination of George's dictionary shows that this isn't the case at all. It's just as confusingly inconsistent there, as well. Craig nicholas williams wrote: > Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation > [kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . > On the other hand Dan's dictionary gives Krist, Crist 'Christ' and > gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. > Other words with and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist > 'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? > > Nicholas > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From njawilliams at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 10:36:37 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 10:36:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: <48673DB1.4020002@freenet.co.uk> References: <48673DB1.4020002@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: To be fair, I think that kist for kyst is an error in Dan's dictionary, not a systematic decision. Dan' dictionary is based on George who is wholly inconsistent about this word and its derivatives. George cites: kyst kystenn kyst-lyther (i.e. kyst lyther) kyst-vaglenn (i.e. kyst vaglenn) kystven atalgyst but strolgist ?where the reader is told that the second element is 2KIST. There is no 2KIST. There isn't any 1KIST either. Nicholas On 29 Jun 2008, at 08:45, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > My point entirely, Nicholas. It is utterly confusing, especially to > those poor people who will be attempting to learn the language. > Surely, > it would have made much more sense to reserve y for the short vowel > (and > in final position) and i for the long one. Nice and easy for all, and > could have been learned easily and with confidence. I thought that KK > did this, but examination of George's dictionary shows that this isn't > the case at all. It's just as confusingly inconsistent there, as > well. > > Craig > > > nicholas williams wrote: >> Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation >> [kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . >> On the other hand Dan's dictionary gives Krist, Crist 'Christ' and >> gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. >> Other words with and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist >> 'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? >> >> Nicholas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Sun Jun 29 12:36:51 2008 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:36:51 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> You're right. I've changed to . Dan From: nicholas williams Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 12:00 AM Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation [kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . On the other hand Dan's dictionary gives Krist, Crist 'Christ' and gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. Other words with and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist 'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? Nicholas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teli7777 at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 16:55:20 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:55:20 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> References: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: Here is a list of word in KK spelling that purport to have a long [ I ]. How should these be spelled: brygh, freckled, speckled (adj.) brygh, freckled, speckled (adj.) brys, mind (n.m.) bydh, ever (adv.) bynk, bench (n.f.) bys, finger (n.m. anat.) bys, until (prep) bys, world (n.m.) dhyn, to us (prep. pron.) dydh, day (n.m.) fydh, faith (n.f.) fysk, haste (n.m.) fysk, hasty (adj.) glyb, wet (adj.) gwlygh, moist (adj.) gwrys, crystal (n.m.) gwrys, done (adj.) gwydh, trees (n. coll.) gwyg, bindweed (n. coll.) gwyr, green (adj.) gwyth, vein (adj.) gyth, complaint (n.m.) gyw, spear, lance (n.m.) hwys, sweat, perspiration (n.m.) hy, her, its (pron.) hyg, swindle (n.f.) hys, length (n.m.) jy, thee (pron.) klys, cozy, sheltered (adj.) klyw, sense of hearing (n.m.) krygh, wrinkle (n. m.) krys, shaking (n.m.) krys, shirt (n.m.) kyf, stump (n.m.) kyn, though (conj.) kyst, box (n.f.) lys, hall, court (n.f.) lyw, rudder (n.m.) my, i, me (pron.) ny, not (ptl.) plyw, parish (n.f.) prys, time (n.m.) prysk, bushes (n. coll.) pryv, worm (n.m.) py, what (pron.) py, which (pron.) pych, stab (n.m.) pyg, tar (n.m.) pysk, fish (n.m.) pyth, thing (n.m.) pyth, what (pron.) ryb, close to (prep.) rydh, free, open (adj.) rys, ford (n.f.) spys, shortly (adv.) styl, rafter (n.m.) styr, meaning (n.m.) syg, bond (n.f.)syg sygh, dry (adj.) syr, sir (n.m.) tryg, low tide (n.m.) trygh, superior (adj.) ty, thou (pron.) vy, me (pron. obj.) y, his, its (pron.) yn, in, at (prep.) yr, fresh (adj.) ys, corn (n. coll.) On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:36 AM, Daniel Prohaska wrote: > You're right. I've changed to . > > Dan > > > > > From: nicholas williams > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 12:00 AM > > Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation > [kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . On the other hand Dan's dictionary gives > Krist, Crist 'Christ' and gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. Other words with > and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist > > 'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? > > Nicholas > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 18:18:22 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:18:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: References: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> Message-ID: <1A08CBE9-370E-4B4D-8046-080DEECA274F@gmail.com> On 29 Jun 2008, at 16:55, Terry Corbett wrote: > Here is a list of word in KK spelling that purport to have a long > [ I ]. How should these be spelled: > I give here how I would spell them in KS (emended SWF Trad.) I should welcome comments and corrections Nicholas > brygh, freckled, speckled (adj.) and the noun 'freckles, pock- > marks' bys/bes word: br?gh > brys, mind (n.m.): bys/bes word: br?s [bydh be, will be] bys/bes word: b?dh > bydh, ever (adv.) this has a voiceless final; bys/bes word: b?th > bynk, bench (n.f.) short vowel before consonant cluster > bys, finger (n.m. anat.) bys/bes word: b?s > bys, until (prep) short vowel because it's in low sentences stress > bys, world (n.m.) the bys/bes world par excellence: b?s/b?s > dhyn, to us (prep. pron.) short vowel [DIn] > dydh, day (n.m.): bys/bes word: d?dh > fydh, faith (n.f.) bys/bes word: f?dh > fysk, haste (n.m.) I pronounce this and the next with a short > vowel: fysk > fysk, hasty (adj.) see above > glyb, wet (adj.): bys/bes word: gl?b > gwlygh, moist (adj.); not attested in Cornish. I don't use it. > gwrys, crystal (n.m.) bys/bes word < *uritum < uitrum; gwr?s/gwr?s > gwrys, done (adj.) bys/bes word: gwr?s > gwydh, trees (n. coll.): bys/bes word: gw?dh > gwyg, bindweed (n. coll.) attested in Cornish only as dialect > weggas. Cf. W gwyg. bys/bes? gw?g > gwyr, green (adj.) I write gwer. This is attested in OC as guirt > and in Lhuyd as hwer. It is from viridis and is not really a bys/bes > word. > gwyth, vein (adj.) [vein is a noun, not an adj.] this is attested > in OC as guit and in OM as woth in the expression lyfwoth I write > gooth > gyth, complaint (n.m.) this is probably a ghost-word at RD 852 > gyw, spear, lance (n.m.): guw is the agreed spelling > hwys, sweat, perspiration (n.m.): bys/bes word: I write wh?s but > whys is attested: I wysce ath face te a tehbbyr the vara TH 6 > hy, her, its (pron.): I think this should be hy; SWF has hi, hei. > hyg, swindle (n.f.) this is unattested; it may be the same word as > Lhuyd's hig 'hook'; in which case hig. > hys, length (n.m.) bys/bes word: h?s > jy, thee (pron.); jy > klys, cozy, sheltered (adj.) bys/bes word: cl?s [though the word > is unattested and has been taken from W and B] > klyw, sense of hearing (n.m.) please! This form is wholly > unattested. The word is either clew or clow. > krygh, wrinkle (n. m.) this word is unattested: in W it is from > Latin crispus, and thus has an original short i. It is thus a bys/ > bes word. I should write cr?gh/cr?gh, preferring the former. > krys, shaking (n.m.) this word is unattested > krys, shirt (n.m.) OCV kreis; bys/bes word: cr?s/cr?s > kyf, stump (n.m.) borrowed from W and B. unattested. < Lat cippus. > bys/bes: k?f/k?f > kyn, though (conj.): low sentence stress: kyn > kyst, box (n.f.) kyst > lys, hall, court (n.f.) this word is unattested outside toponyms; > bys/bes word: l?s > lyw, rudder (n.m.): lyw > my, i, me (pron.): Dan's dictionary has my and me > ny, not (ptl.); low sentence stress: ny > plyw, parish (n.f.): pluw > prys, time (n.m.) bys/bes word: pr?s (cf. kefr?s) > prysk, bushes (n. coll.) I pronounce this short: prysk > pryv, worm (n.m.); bys/bes word: pr?v/pr?v. > py, what (pron.) low sentence stress: py > py, which (pron.) low sentence stress: py > pych, stab (n.m.) this is related to pechya 'stab'; I think it has > a short vowel . I write pych. > pyg, tar (n.m.) this is peyk in CW. I think it has a long vowel > and I write p?k in KS > pysk, fish (n.m.) pysk or pesk > pyth, thing (n.m.) bys/bes word: p?th > pyth, what (pron.) (same word as above) p?th > ryb, close to (prep.) low sentence stress ryb (but reb allowed in > SWF LC) > rydh, free, open (adj.) word unattested in Cornish outside colm re > 'running knot'; r?dh/r?dh > rys, ford (n.f.) bys/bes word r?s > spys, shortly (adv.) used only in a verr spys 'shortly'. The word > is from Latin spatium. In which case one would expect *spes; cf. I > would write spys. > styl, rafter (n.m.) Nance has a double ll here. It is related to > estyllen 'plank' and the vowel is definitely short: styll > styr, meaning (n.m.) < Latin (hi)storia. In view of the verb > styrya 'to signify' which has a short vowel, I write styr. Before he > knew TH Nance wrote ster. > syg, bond (n.f.) known only from the dialect word siggen. I think > the word has a short vowel. I should write > sygh, dry (adj.) bys/bes word: s?gh/s?gh > syr, sir (n.m.) I think this has a short vowel: syr > tryg, low tide (n.m.) I think the vowel is short: tryg > trygh, superior (adj.) > ty, thou (pron.) ty > vy, me (pron. obj.) vy > y, his, its (pron.): low sentence stress: y > yn, in, at (prep.) in KS > yr, fresh (adj.) bys/bes word: ?r > ys, corn (n. coll.) bys/bes word: ?s/?s > > > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 5:36 AM, Daniel Prohaska > wrote: > You're right. I've changed to . > > Dan > > > > From: nicholas williams > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 12:00 AM > > > Dan's dictionary gives kist 'box, chest' and gives the pronunciation > [kIst] i.e. a short i spelt . On the other hand Dan's dictionary > gives Krist, Crist 'Christ' and gives the pronunciation [kri:st]. > Other words with and a long vowel are trist 'sad' and jist > > 'joist'. Should kist not be kyst? > > Nicholas > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teli7777 at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 19:18:02 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:18:02 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: <1A08CBE9-370E-4B4D-8046-080DEECA274F@gmail.com> References: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> <1A08CBE9-370E-4B4D-8046-080DEECA274F@gmail.com> Message-ID: That is an excellent beginning on bringing a rational order to these spellings. Do all the dieresis have a < y > diaresis companion spelling? Terry On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 11:18 AM, nicholas williams wrote: > > I give here how I would spell them in KS (emended SWF Trad.) I should > welcome comments and corrections > Nicholas > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Sun Jun 29 19:25:41 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:25:41 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: References: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> <1A08CBE9-370E-4B4D-8046-080DEECA274F@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:18 -0600 2008-06-29, Terry Corbett wrote: >That is an excellent beginning on bringing a rational order to these >spellings. Do all the dieresis have a < y > diaresis companion >spelling? Yes, so that people who prefer the earlier pronunciation can write that. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From njawilliams at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 19:32:00 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:32:00 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] kist, Crist In-Reply-To: References: <200806291137.m5TBaw6C025152@onewbx1p.one.at> <1A08CBE9-370E-4B4D-8046-080DEECA274F@gmail.com> Message-ID: All ? forms can be written with ?. I write d?dh and b?dh but ?s because I say dedh, bedh and ys [i:z]. If I said [di:D] and [bi:D] I should write d?dh and b?dh. Dydh is curious. Tregear always writes (13 times) but (6 times). This, among other things, makes me think that some bys/bes words had both an [i:] pronunciation and an [e:] pronunciation. My preferences follow UCR but others may prefer y to e in some words. The system is unambiguous, rational, and as far as possible authentic. Pr?v is not attested but preve is. Since we do not write silent e, prev is the spelling. Since pryf is also attested pr?v and pr?v are both allowed. Gallas Lucifer droke preve CW 335 ythew an very pryfna CW 1817. The great advantage of this approach to bys/bes words is that it doesn't arbitrarily chose pryf and ignore preve or vice versa. Nicholas On 29 Jun 2008, at 19:18, Terry Corbett wrote: > That is an excellent beginning on bringing a rational order to these > spellings. Do all the dieresis have a < y > diaresis companion > spelling? > > Terry > > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 11:18 AM, nicholas williams > wrote: > > I give here how I would spell them in KS (emended SWF Trad.) I > should welcome comments and corrections > Nicholas > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 14:33:05 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:33:05 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF Message-ID: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's dictionary we find: Almayn [almaIn] mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. Nicholas ---------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:06:19 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:06:19 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita Message-ID: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> KK is incoherent in its spelling of words in -ita/-yta < Latin - itat(em). It writes 'trinity', 'charity', 'dignity' with <-yta> but 'controversy', 'antiquity' and 'authority' with <-ita>. The SWF (as exemplified in Dan's dictionary) renders the ending as <- ita> everywhere. I wonder whether this is wise. The vowel in -yta is invariably short. I should prefer to write trynyta, cheryta, dynyta, controversyta, antyqwyta, auctoryta, etc. Otherwise we might have the following: akwyt a! 'pay him!' kwyt a! 'leave him!' antikwita 'antiquity' dibita 'pitiless' all with [It@] but written differently. This isn't very helpful for learners?many of whom (understandably) found the distribution of y and i baffling in KK. And it is not just learners who were befuddled by in KK. The editor of the KK New Testament in his introduction describes his team of translators as 'experienced Cornish linguists'. They wrote in KK and yet they, 'experienced' as they were, could frequently not decide whether to write or . In An Testament Nowydh we find Luke 2.25 but Acts 13:1; 2 Cor. 1:19 but 1 Peter 5:12; Matt 11:21 but Mark 3:8. Should we not be looking for a simple and coherent distribution of these two graphs and ? Nicholas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:40:57 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:40:57 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806300740q793d66cfv9763a56a63dd3de1@mail.gmail.com> I agree that we should be consistent about these items. Which is more common in the texts, or ? looks better to me on etymological grounds. And is always short anyway if unstressed and/or in syllables earlier than the penultima... ~~Owen 2008/6/30 nicholas williams : > KK is incoherent in its spelling of words in -ita/-yta < Latin -itat(em). > It writes 'trinity', 'charity', 'dignity' with > <-yta> but > 'controversy', 'antiquity' and > 'authority' with <-ita>. > The SWF (as exemplified in Dan's dictionary) renders the ending as <-ita> > everywhere. > I wonder whether this is wise. The vowel in -yta is invariably short. I > should prefer to write > trynyta, cheryta, dynyta, controversyta, antyqwyta, auctoryta, etc. > Otherwise we might have the following: > akwyt a! 'pay him!' > kwyt a! 'leave him!' > antikwita 'antiquity' > dibita 'pitiless' > all with [It@] but written differently. This isn't very helpful for > learners?many of whom (understandably) > found the distribution of y and i baffling in KK. > And it is not just learners who were befuddled by in KK. The editor > of the KK New Testament in his introduction describes his team of > translators as 'experienced Cornish linguists'. They wrote in KK and yet > they, 'experienced' as they were, could frequently not decide whether to > write or . > In An Testament Nowydh we find Luke 2.25 but Acts 13:1; > 2 Cor. 1:19 but 1 Peter 5:12; Matt 11:21 but > Mark 3:8. > Should we not be looking for a simple and coherent distribution of these two > graphs and ? > Nicholas > > From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 15:42:33 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:42:33 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806300742oafa8f60wa5adc9db33d61db7@mail.gmail.com> Certainly; we need , as it's dead useful for these words and looks good too. ~~Owen 2008/6/30 nicholas williams : > In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. > The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's dictionary > we > find: > Almayn [almaIn] > mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] > chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] > playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' > but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. > But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. > They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. > There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. > Nicholas > ---------- > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 16:13:37 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:13:37 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] Front unrounded vowels, was: The quantity system In-Reply-To: References: <6e5d3b9f0806240448u5486d293lb8833b248fa1e4b@mail.gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806240659x40440af3haca1095f24146c61@mail.gmail.com> <4EC1DF7E-218F-4CD5-9FCE-5BE356C7B4AE@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806300813oa191086u81fa2535a8a04690@mail.gmail.com> I've unilaterally decided not to continue to argue in favour of diacritics on the letter y in KS, just in the interests of not going round in circles. I stand by that decision. However, I assume that many on the list may be interested in fonts that support y-circumflexes whether out of interest in Welsh or wanting to write Jennerian or Lhuydian Cornish in their free time, or for some similar reason. As far as I can remember, I have never paid money for a font. Now, on my PC I've got the following fonts that support y-circumflex: Arial (normal, Black, Unicode MS) Batang Charis SIL Comic Sans MS Courier (normal, New) DejaVu (Sans, Sans Condensed, Sans Light, Sans Mono, Serif, Serif Condensed) Dotum EstrangeloEdessa Franklin Gothic Medium Gautami Gentium Georgia Gulim Gungsuh Impact Junicode Liberation (Mono, Sans, Serif) Lucida (Console, Sans Unicode) Microsoft Sans Serif MS (Gothic, Mincho, PGothic, PMincho, UI Gothic) Nakula Palatino Linotype Sahadeva Sylfaen Tahoma Times New Roman Times NRC (thanks to Gendall's dictionary!) TITUS Cyberbit Basic Trebuchet MS Verdana So I don't feel that I'm exactly hurting for choice. For everyday use, Junicode, Gentium, and Liberation are fonts that I'm particularly pleased with; you can download all of them for free. Each supports a very wide range of characters and is up to snuff as far as Unicode is concerned. Do have a look at those three if you're interested in being able to see or type the accents right in a wide variety of languages. I do sympathize with Eddie's position, however, especially for those unique specialty fonts you sometimes want to use in titling or similar situations. Sometimes one font seems exactly right, and you can't just swap it for anything less. Oll an gwelha, ~~Owen 2008/6/28 Eddie Climo rug scrifa: > (1) I use whatever legal fonts I can get my hands on, and some older ones > are available cheaply. Moreover, as MacOS X is agnostic on the matter, I run > both Mac and Windows fonts. > (2) I can't afford to buy new, Unicode-compliant replacements for all my > favourite older fonts. > (3) My fonts vary enormously in which of the more 'exotic' characters and > accents they offer. It's not realistic for me to have to inspect every > single font before I use it to see which of the accented s it contains. From everson at evertype.com Mon Jun 30 16:24:09 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:24:09 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 14:33 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. > >The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's dictionary we >find: > >Almayn [almaIn] >mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] >chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] >playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' >but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. > >But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. >They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. > >There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. The SWF only allows and . Since is [aI] (as in the particle ) There's no way these other words can be written . It is [me:n], not [maIn]: therefore or
are the choices. It is [tSe:n], not [tSaIn]: therefore or are the choices. It is [tSe:r], not [tSaIr]: therefore or are the choices. It is [ple:n], not [plaIn]: therefore or are the choices. It is ['alme:n], not ['almaIn]: therefore or are the choices. Since either or would be a change from the SWF, I suggest we use . The same argument holds for , which is neither nor . -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Mon Jun 30 16:28:44 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:28:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806300742oafa8f60wa5adc9db33d61db7@mail.gmail.com> References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806300742oafa8f60wa5adc9db33d61db7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have no objection to having and in Cornish if they are both beneficial, and if they are used consistently and predictably. English is confused too, with "plain" & "plane" and with several meanings, based on the ideas of basic and flat. UCR has pl?n, pl?n, and playn, where my acute accent is an (unwritten) macron. Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Owen Cook" Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:42 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF > Certainly; we need , as it's dead useful for these words and looks > good too. > > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/30 nicholas williams : >> In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. >> The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's >> dictionary >> we >> find: >> Almayn [almaIn] >> mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] >> chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] >> playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' >> but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. >> But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. >> They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. >> There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. >> Nicholas >> ---------- >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From ajtrim at msn.com Mon Jun 30 16:42:09 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:42:09 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes. Either make the choice between and simple and consistent or say that either may be used optionally anywhere, or discard one and just use the other. Please don't leave us with the current unpredictable mishmash. By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... deray, perhaps ... or dere, or derai? Regards, Andrew J. Trim From: nicholas williams Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:06 PM To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: [Spellyans] -ita KK is incoherent in its spelling of words in -ita/-yta < Latin -itat(em). It writes 'trinity', 'charity', 'dignity' with <-yta> but 'controversy', 'antiquity' and 'authority' with <-ita>. The SWF (as exemplified in Dan's dictionary) renders the ending as <-ita> everywhere. I wonder whether this is wise. The vowel in -yta is invariably short. I should prefer to write trynyta, cheryta, dynyta, controversyta, antyqwyta, auctoryta, etc. Otherwise we might have the following: akwyt a! 'pay him!' kwyt a! 'leave him!' antikwita 'antiquity' dibita 'pitiless' all with [It@] but written differently. This isn't very helpful for learners?many of whom (understandably) found the distribution of y and i baffling in KK. And it is not just learners who were befuddled by in KK. The editor of the KK New Testament in his introduction describes his team of translators as 'experienced Cornish linguists'. They wrote in KK and yet they, 'experienced' as they were, could frequently not decide whether to write or . In An Testament Nowydh we find Luke 2.25 but Acts 13:1; 2 Cor. 1:19 but 1 Peter 5:12; Matt 11:21 but Mark 3:8. Should we not be looking for a simple and coherent distribution of these two graphs and ? Nicholas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk Mon Jun 30 17:50:33 2008 From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:50:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48690ED9.8080109@freenet.co.uk> Yes, of course they are the same word. There is no confusion in the SWF, just lack of thought probably due to the fact that the entire thing was such a rush job. For any job to be done properly, it takes the time that it takes. That is why KS was so good. A lot of time, thought, discussion, checking and rechecking was done, and achieved an excellent result that its enemies (and those influenced by them) totally and unforgivably ignored. A rush job is a bodged job, and there is no way of ever avoiding that result. As a result, we have to form this Spellyans forum to sort out what should have been properly assessed then. And wasn't. Craig nicholas williams wrote: > In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. > The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's > dictionary we > find: > > Almayn [almaIn] > mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] > chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] > playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' > but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. > > But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. > They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. > > There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. > > Nicholas > ---------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From teli7777 at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 18:12:49 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:12:49 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think Michael's suggestion about using ai is the right way to go. Terry On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > At 14:33 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: > >In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. > > > >The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's dictionary > we > >find: > > > >Almayn [almaIn] > >mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] > >chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] > >playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' > >but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. > > > >But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. > >They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. > > > >There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. > > The SWF only allows and . Since is > [aI] (as in the particle ) There's no way > these other words can be written . > > It is [me:n], not [maIn]: therefore or
are the choices. > It is [tSe:n], not [tSaIn]: therefore or are the choices. > It is [tSe:r], not [tSaIr]: therefore or are the choices. > It is [ple:n], not [plaIn]: therefore or are the choices. > It is ['alme:n], not ['almaIn]: therefore or are the > choices. > > Since either or would be a change from the SWF, I suggest we use > . > > The same argument holds for , which is neither nor . > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 18:13:37 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:13:37 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? cab?lva f.; cf. cabulva 'medley' Nance 52. Nicholas ------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From teli7777 at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 18:16:39 2008 From: teli7777 at gmail.com (Terry Corbett) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:16:39 -0600 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since we have a [I] pronunciation we should use a < y >. Terry On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:42 AM, A. J. Trim wrote: > Yes. > > Either make the choice between <*i*> and <*y*> simple and consistent or > say that either may be used optionally anywhere, or discard one and just use > the other. > Please don't leave us with the current unpredictable mishmash. > > By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... *deray*, perhaps ... or * > dere*, or *derai*? > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 18:16:54 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:16:54 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0806300740q793d66cfv9763a56a63dd3de1@mail.gmail.com> References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806300740q793d66cfv9763a56a63dd3de1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: -yte, -yta is much more common than -ite. -ita is unattested outside cita. Nicholas ------------ On 30 Jun 2008, at 15:40, Owen Cook wrote: > I agree that we should be consistent about these items. Which is more > common in the texts, or ? looks better to me on > etymological grounds. And is always short anyway if unstressed > and/or in syllables earlier than the penultima... > > ~~Owen > > 2008/6/30 nicholas williams : >> KK is incoherent in its spelling of words in -ita/-yta < Latin - >> itat(em). >> It writes 'trinity', 'charity', >> 'dignity' with >> <-yta> but >> 'controversy', 'antiquity' and >> 'authority' with <-ita>. >> The SWF (as exemplified in Dan's dictionary) renders the ending as >> <-ita> >> everywhere. >> I wonder whether this is wise. The vowel in -yta is invariably >> short. I >> should prefer to write >> trynyta, cheryta, dynyta, controversyta, antyqwyta, auctoryta, etc. >> Otherwise we might have the following: >> akwyt a! 'pay him!' >> kwyt a! 'leave him!' >> antikwita 'antiquity' >> dibita 'pitiless' >> all with [It@] but written differently. This isn't very helpful for >> learners?many of whom (understandably) >> found the distribution of y and i baffling in KK. >> And it is not just learners who were befuddled by in KK. >> The editor >> of the KK New Testament in his introduction describes his team of >> translators as 'experienced Cornish linguists'. They wrote in KK >> and yet >> they, 'experienced' as they were, could frequently not decide >> whether to >> write or . >> In An Testament Nowydh we find Luke 2.25 but Acts >> 13:1; >> 2 Cor. 1:19 but 1 Peter 5:12; Matt >> 11:21 but >> Mark 3:8. >> Should we not be looking for a simple and coherent distribution of >> these two >> graphs and ? >> Nicholas >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 18:20:47 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:20:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: KS uses y for [I] everywhere except in derivatives of monosyllables in , e.g. gwir, gwiryoneth; tir, tiryow and also where a final long i occurs in a stressed syllable despit, constrin. initially, e.g. istyna, inclynya, in, indella, etc. yn adverbial is distinguished from in 'in': yn t? but in gwir. Nicholas On 30 Jun 2008, at 18:16, Terry Corbett wrote: > Since we have a [I] pronunciation we should use a < y >. > > Terry > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:42 AM, A. J. Trim wrote: > Yes. > > Either make the choice between and simple and consistent or > say that either may be used optionally anywhere, or discard one and > just use the other. > Please don't leave us with the current unpredictable mishmash. > > By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... deray, perhaps ... > or dere, or derai? > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 18:32:19 2008 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:32:19 +0300 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> <6e5d3b9f0806300740q793d66cfv9763a56a63dd3de1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0806301032l6af8e7ieb39b3cce2cc637f@mail.gmail.com> I vote for then. ( and are out, of course, thanks to a strange call on Nance's part unquestioned by George as well, namely writing final even where we know very well that the Middle Cornish texts had . In UCR and KS, by contrast, this choice makes sense as our primary temporal frame of reference is later...) ~~Owen 2008/6/30 nicholas williams rug scrifa: > -yte, -yta is much more common than -ite. -ita is unattested outside > cita. > > Nicholas From koumanonff at orange.fr Mon Jun 30 18:38:49 2008 From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Koumanonff) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:38:49 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] i and y In-Reply-To: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> References: <1D213C76-E785-4F0E-AF62-E5C76AC89703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48691A29.2030200@orange.fr> Skrivet eo bet gant nicholas williams: > Gonis has in the SWF because of gonis in KK. KK has gonis because > of gounid in Breton. > The unstressed vowel should be , since it frequently appears as > , e.g. gones CW 1080, gonethys 'worked' BM 4392 and cf. gonesugy > 'workers' x 3. > In Breton, the verbal noun is "gounit" but it's conjugated on the base of "gounez-" > Palys 'palace' is attested x 3 in BM. Palas 'palace' occurs once in > BK. I should spell it palys, plural 'palycys; cf. palys, palysys Nance. > Chalys is attested x 4 in SA as chalys. Nance gives chalys, chalysys. > I should write chalys, chalycys. > > Nance gives crocod?l. If we adopt this in KS we should write crocodil, > crocod?lys. I wd be quite happy with cro?codyl, crocody?lys. > > SWF has krytyk but meppik because KK has. KK writes meppik, mestresik > because the diminutive ending in Breton is -ig, e.g. Soazig, tammig, > etc. > This is no reason to interfere with Cornish. Little children is > flehysygow at OM 1868 and 'little horns' is gernygov at BM 3396. I > write meppyk and mestresyk. > > Incidentally SWF has glin 'knee' and dewlin, dowlin knees. I prefer > glin, dewlyn; cf. leuv, dewla where the unstressed form is reduced > (cf. W llaw but dwylo). > > Nicholas > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 30 17:38:27 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:38:27 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 Jun 2008, at 16:42, A. J. Trim wrote: > . . . By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... deray, > perhaps ... or dere, or derai? 'cabulva' po 'whym wham' martesen? Eddie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Mon Jun 30 19:08:28 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:08:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 18:13 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >cab?lva f.; cf. cabulva 'medley' Nance 52. Somehow I expected cab?lva with the stress on the first syllable. My mistake I am sure. But note how easily we could have written it. :-) -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 30 18:27:23 2008 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:27:23 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: <48690ED9.8080109@freenet.co.uk> References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> <48690ED9.8080109@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: On 30 Jun 2008, at 17:50, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > Yes, of course they are the same word. There is no confusion in the > SWF, just lack of thought probably due to the fact that the entire > thing > was such a rush job. For any job to be done properly, it takes the > time > that it takes. That is why KS was so good. A lot of time, thought, > discussion, checking and rechecking was done, and achieved an > excellent > result that its enemies (and those influenced by them) totally and > unforgivably ignored. > > A rush job is a bodged job, and there is no way of ever avoiding that > result. As a result, we have to form this Spellyans forum to sort out > what should have been properly assessed then. And wasn't. Pace its authors, we might describe the SWF as 'jerry built'. Drok yu genef! :D Eddie From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 19:27:55 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:27:55 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: The word is cybolfa in Welsh with penultimate stress. Maybe it should be ca'b?lva. Nance writes it long. On 30 Jun 2008, at 19:08, Michael Everson wrote: > At 18:13 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: > >> cab?lva f.; cf. cabulva 'medley' Nance 52. > > Somehow I expected cab?lva with the stress on the > first syllable. My mistake I am sure. But note > how easily we could have written it. :-) > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Mon Jun 30 19:29:06 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:29:06 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 18:20 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >KS uses y for [I] everywhere except >in derivatives of monosyllables in , e.g. gwir, gwiryoneth; tir, tiryow The SWF does this. >and also where a final long i occurs in a stressed syllable despit, constrin. This is a fine distinction; it is not unrelated to our distinction of from . Pragmatically we will have to be careful laying out the rules, because there are overlaps. (1) Initially is [I]; initial [i:] would be written (modulo ). This rule increases the visibility of the letter considerably -- a concern many RLC users have expressed to us. (2) In monosyllables and their derivatives is [i:] and is [I] (modulo /. When unstressed, these letters are shortened to [I]. (3) In polysyllables not derived from monosyllables, the sound is almost invariably [I]. In final unstressed position, will be [I]~[@] and will indiate that the vowel is [i:] and that the syllable is stressed (crodo'dil, pl. croco'dilys; con'strin, ppl con'strinys). Elsewhere in medial position will be used since the vowel is almost always [I]; in those rarer instances where the vowel is [i:], it can be marked with the circumflex (b?bel (if not beybel) s?ra, personal names). We will deal with final position a bit later (please not right away). In the meantime, could you please think very carefully about (3) above and see if there are any pitfalls there. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From everson at evertype.com Mon Jun 30 19:34:48 2008 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:34:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 19:27 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >The word is cybolfa in Welsh with penultimate stress. Maybe it should >be ca'b?lva. Nance writes it long. He has other cab?l- words, and refers to "cabool" in dialect. George has kabol- and gives a smarmy explanation of o vs u in his GKK. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From ajtrim at msn.com Mon Jun 30 20:41:49 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 20:41:49 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have no problem with . It's better than using a diacritic on a non-stressed syllable. However, some folk will say that the resultant words look too English. Could be used instead? I know that was destined for words like chi/chei but those would be better as chy anyway. What do you want to do with ? Would we get Austria back!? Regards, Andrew J. Trim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Everson" Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:24 PM To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" Subject: Re: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF > At 14:33 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >>In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. >> >>The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's dictionary >>we >>find: >> >>Almayn [almaIn] >>mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] >>chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] >>playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' >>but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. >> >>But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. >>They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. >> >>There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be sorted out. > > The SWF only allows and . Since is > [aI] (as in the particle ) There's no way > these other words can be written . > > It is [me:n], not [maIn]: therefore or
are the choices. > It is [tSe:n], not [tSaIn]: therefore or are the choices. > It is [tSe:r], not [tSaIr]: therefore or are the choices. > It is [ple:n], not [plaIn]: therefore or are the choices. > It is ['alme:n], not ['almaIn]: therefore or are the > choices. > > Since either or would be a change from the SWF, I suggest we use > . > > The same argument holds for , which is neither nor . > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 21:00:59 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:00:59 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: Since KK has not been accepted as the SWF, KG should be treated to a "complete ignoral" (the late Lord George Brown). I don't really care what KG says. I have spent far too long pointing out his innumerable errors. We have better things to do. I shall write cab?lva. Nicholas On 30 Jun 2008, at 19:34, Michael Everson wrote: > At 19:27 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >> The word is cybolfa in Welsh with penultimate stress. Maybe it should >> be ca'b?lva. Nance writes it long. > > He has other cab?l- words, and refers to "cabool" > in dialect. George has kabol- and gives a smarmy > explanation of o vs u in his GKK. > -- > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 21:26:11 2008 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 21:26:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> Message-ID: <60E199F5-AFAF-4E45-967A-62D0CFA1CCF1@gmail.com> Lhuyd writes trailya and hail occurs x 5 in BK. Nicholas ------------ On 30 Jun 2008, at 20:41, A. J. Trim wrote: > I have no problem with . > It's better than using a diacritic on a non-stressed syllable. > > However, some folk will say that the resultant words look too English. > Could be used instead? > I know that was destined for words like chi/chei but those > would be > better as chy anyway. > > What do you want to do with ? > Would we get Austria back!? > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Everson" > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 4:24 PM > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF > >> At 14:33 +0100 2008-06-30, nicholas williams wrote: >>> In KS we sensibly distinguish [E:] from [ai]. >>> >>> The SWF has decided that only is to be used. Thus in Dan's >>> dictionary >>> we >>> find: >>> >>> Almayn [almaIn] >>> mayn [maIn] + [mE:n] >>> chayn [tSaIn] + [tSE:n] >>> playn [plaIn] + [plE:n] 'carpenter's plane' >>> but plen 'plain' (adj) and 'playing place, plain' as [ple:n]. >>> >>> But surely playn 'plane' and plen 'plain' have the same vowel. >>> They are, after all, the same word < Latin planus 'level'. >>> >>> There seems to be confusion here in the SWF which needs to be >>> sorted out. >> >> The SWF only allows and . Since is >> [aI] (as in the particle ) There's no way >> these other words can be written . >> >> It is [me:n], not [maIn]: therefore or
are the choices. >> It is [tSe:n], not [tSaIn]: therefore or are the >> choices. >> It is [tSe:r], not [tSaIr]: therefore or are the >> choices. >> It is [ple:n], not [plaIn]: therefore or are the >> choices. >> It is ['alme:n], not ['almaIn]: therefore or are the >> choices. >> >> Since either or would be a change from the SWF, I suggest >> we use >> . >> >> The same argument holds for , which is neither nor . >> -- >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From ajtrim at msn.com Mon Jun 30 23:36:40 2008 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 23:36:40 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] -ita In-Reply-To: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> References: <9901049E-DC91-4B68-8F13-3B224DD85E69@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I think you have it about right in KS, regarding and , though I'm still not sure about b?s/b?s words. Why are despit and constrin quoted as exceptions? Surely, these have stressed = [i:], and so are regular. I would also expect [I@] and [i:@] to be (e.g. fia "to flee"), and [ja] to be (e.g. redya "to read") and I would expect final <-y>, e.g. tyby "to suppose", chy "house". Initial would be OK but there are exceptions (e.g. yw "is", y "his", yma/ymons, ytho). These will need to be in a very short list else they will need to be predictable -- "function" word is too vague a term. What happens when a word starts with or under soft mutation? Does it become or respectively, or do they all become ? How do we know whether yn gwir is "truly" (with missing mutation) or in gwir "in truth", and does "in truth" mean "truly" anyway? I can live with it, if that is what you want to do, but I think that I would prefer not to have this initial rule. It appears to be cosmetic only and without function. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From: nicholas williams Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 6:20 PM To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] -ita KS uses y for [I] everywhere except in derivatives of monosyllables in , e.g. gwir, gwiryoneth; tir, tiryow and also where a final long i occurs in a stressed syllable despit, constrin. initially, e.g. istyna, inclynya, in, indella, etc. yn adverbial is distinguished from in 'in': yn t? but in gwir. Nicholas On 30 Jun 2008, at 18:16, Terry Corbett wrote: Since we have a [I] pronunciation we should use a < y >. Terry On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:42 AM, A. J. Trim wrote: Yes. Either make the choice between and simple and consistent or say that either may be used optionally anywhere, or discard one and just use the other. Please don't leave us with the current unpredictable mishmash. By the way, what is Cornish for "mishmash"? ... deray, perhaps ... or dere, or derai? Regards, Andrew J. Trim _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From menystror at kernowek.net Mon Jun 30 19:29:50 2008 From: menystror at kernowek.net (menystror) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:29:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] ~ in KS = in SWF In-Reply-To: References: <540B4F0F-14A8-46BD-AFE0-8BE1C59E7D17@gmail.com> <48690ED9.8080109@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: At 18:27 +0100 2008-06-30, Eddie Climo wrote: >Pace its authors, we might describe the SWF as 'jerry built'. *eyes narrow* -- An Menystror