[Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes

Wed Jan 27 12:31:47 GMT 2010

My question(s) as an amateur linguist, is this (not a simple one):

Just what should be the policy on Place-names in a country or region? What would be the rules or guidelines for the use of a local language translation as a replacement or alternative for a place name?

Should Scotland or Cornwall, or anywhere, have a complete set of alternative local language translations for place names, and then insist on using these, either as alternatives or replacing current spellings? When a place name has never been in regular use in the local language, should a rarely attested or even newly coined name be used? As an example in Scotland, should Gaelic names be used all over, or should deference be given to Brittonic forms in certain areas where Gaelic has never traditionally been used? In Cornwall should the place known as Barripper, derived from French/Anglo-Norman Beau-repaire ever be known as Argelteg, a recent literal translation. In England this same logic would lead to well-known Danish and Brittonic derived place names being replaced or provided with alternatives only based on Anglo-Saxon/English - is this the right thing to do?

The other question is what rules for the spelling of the name should be used? Most place names in whatever language are rarely spelled as the modern language would require for their original meaning, if they were not just a name, to be easily discerned. Is this wrong? How then to decide on the appropriate spelling for a place-name if the ones in recent use have strayed from modern spelling of their components? Correcting place-name spelling to the current orthography of a language can produce a false set of results, which may not be desirable. Where a viable Cornish language version of a place-name has evolved alongside the English version, then I would expect the adoption of the evolved translation of the place-name - e.g. Pyran yn Treth for Perranzabuloe. However, should one always respell place-names in modern orthography - e.g. Ponsanooth, has evolved from Pons-an-oeth (1521 a.d.), through Ponsonoot and Ponce-an-noote, is it right to respell as Pons an Woedh, just because that's how modern orthography dictates it would be spelled if it was coined today? I lived in a village called Send, derived from the Sand found there, and over years it evolved from Sande, through Sende to Send. No-one in Send would expect to respell the place as Sand, because that's how we now spell the material that the village derived its name from is now spelled.

I don't know the answer to all this, and know it is probably a mine-field. I think there will probably be a case by case answer, and so trying to determine a set of rules or guidelines would be fraught. Just interested in peoples' thoughts on this.

Regards

Herbie

eMail: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com
 Please consider the environment before printing this eMail - thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
Sent: 27 January 2010 10:51
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes

Ken,

This advice is very kind of you.  Is there an adopted policy for  
Gaelic place-name representation in Scotland?  Nicholas and Michael -  
is there such a policy in Ireland? Does anyone know if one is in place  
for Welsh place-names?  Or Breton ones?

If so, can I get hold of copies?  If there is such precedent, then  
these can only help in formulating one for Cornwall.

Pol and Julyan seem to think that such signage/map representation is  
for Cornish speakers only.  My argument is different - it's for  
everyone (Oliver seems to agree with that).

Craig

On 27 Gen 2010, at 10:23, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> Craig,
>
> Many thanks for quick reply.   Spelling issues on placename forms  
> are a most imnportant corpus issue.
>
> I hope very much that you feel the strength of group support with  
> you on this.  I am sure that Oliver will have strong and positive  
> views on this informed with a great deal of expertise.  He is after  
> all President of EPNS and can speak with authority.
>
> Our own experience in Scotland in setting up AAA ( Ainmean Aite na  
> h- Alba - Gaelic Placenamnes of Scotland) - and incorporating this  
> in the official Gaelic language planning process is proving most  
> helpful.
> and is beginning to show in the environment.
>
> Unity is strength and I would suggest that some liaison with this  
> body will be helpful as a resource and as an exemplar of experience.
>
> If I can assist in connections shall be glad to do so.
>
> Kemer wyth - an Ken ken
>
>
>
> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>
> ken at ferintosh.org
> and also at:-
> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>
> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>
> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
> Scotland  UK
>
> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org 
> >
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] BBC Broadcast
>
>
>> Yes, Ken, both Oliver and I are included.  Our first meeting was last
>> Friday.  That established little more than a basic working practice
>> policy and the fact that I will have my work heavily cut out to  
>> banish
>> non-traditional graphs from historic place-names.  I will need to  
>> have
>> steel heels fitted for the amount of digging in I'll have to do
>> against Pol and Julyan..
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On 26 Gen 2010, at 16:01, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>
>>> Craig and friends.
>>>
>>> I watched the Inside Out programme courtesy of Sky.   My own
>>> thoughts were that it did not get us very much further forward.   I
>>> contributed over an hour of recorded speech - but little more than a
>>> couple of snippets were used ( in my view on somewhat perpheral
>>> issues).
>>>
>>> The programme contained a lot of stereoptyping, and I thought that
>>> Mick Catmull would have gotten a bit beyond this onto more salient
>>> issues.
>>>
>>> I understand that CLP have set up a placenames working group.   I
>>> very much trust that people like yourself, Craig , and Oliver Padel
>>> have been included.
>>>
>>> Jenefer and Nev Meek are due to attend a British & Irish seminar on
>>> language legislation next week in Edinburgh - and I hope to have the
>>> opportunity of a session with them on current issues.
>>>
>>> - oll an gwella - an Ken ken
>>>
>>> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>>>
>>> ken at ferintosh.org
>>> and also at:-
>>> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>>>
>>> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>>>
>>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
>>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>>> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
>>> Scotland  UK
>>>
>>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org
>>> >
>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] BBC Broadcast
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, I did see this.  Some presenter/interviewer from way out of
>>>> Cornwall, perpetuating the Dolly Pentreath list and with the usual
>>>> sneery attitude we've come to expect from the BBC.  'Do you speak
>>>> Cornish?' he asked the barmaid.  'No," she replied.  'Thank God for
>>>> that,' he said.
>>>>
>>>> Still, Mick, Ray and Denise held their own.  Rather well, I  
>>>> thought.
>>>>
>>>> I've missed the Radio Cornwall programme today on which some  
>>>> academic
>>>> from the University of Durham is being allowed to opine that the
>>>> Cornish, as a people, don't exist.  (If this was done against a  
>>>> black
>>>> or Asian group, there would be all hell to pay and probably
>>>> prosecutions as well).  Ok, so I don't exist, therefore this  
>>>> message
>>>> has never been sent.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 26 Gen 2010, at 14:42, j.mills at email.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For those who missed the BBC broadcast concerning the Cornish
>>>>> language (Monday 25 January), it can be found on BBC iPLayer at
>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qg3bb/Inside_Out_South_West_25_01_2010/
>>>>> .
>>>>> Fast forward to about 9 mins 50 secs into the programme for the  
>>>>> part
>>>>> concerning the Cornish language.
>>>>> Ol an gwella
>>>>> Jon
>>>>> _____________________________________
>>>>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>>>>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>>>>> University of Kent
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
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--
Craig Weatherhill

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