[Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes

Wed Jan 27 15:01:48 GMT 2010

You're not kidding about the minefield, Herbie!  Later today (I have  
to go out shortly), I'll put my bullet-point suggestions re Cornish  
place-names on this list.

Craig

On 27 Gen 2010, at 12:31, Herbie Blackburn wrote:

> My question(s) as an amateur linguist, is this (not a simple one):
>
> Just what should be the policy on Place-names in a country or  
> region? What would be the rules or guidelines for the use of a local  
> language translation as a replacement or alternative for a place name?
>
> Should Scotland or Cornwall, or anywhere, have a complete set of  
> alternative local language translations for place names, and then  
> insist on using these, either as alternatives or replacing current  
> spellings? When a place name has never been in regular use in the  
> local language, should a rarely attested or even newly coined name  
> be used? As an example in Scotland, should Gaelic names be used all  
> over, or should deference be given to Brittonic forms in certain  
> areas where Gaelic has never traditionally been used? In Cornwall  
> should the place known as Barripper, derived from French/Anglo- 
> Norman Beau-repaire ever be known as Argelteg, a recent literal  
> translation. In England this same logic would lead to well-known  
> Danish and Brittonic derived place names being replaced or provided  
> with alternatives only based on Anglo-Saxon/English - is this the  
> right thing to do?
>
> The other question is what rules for the spelling of the name should  
> be used? Most place names in whatever language are rarely spelled as  
> the modern language would require for their original meaning, if  
> they were not just a name, to be easily discerned. Is this wrong?  
> How then to decide on the appropriate spelling for a place-name if  
> the ones in recent use have strayed from modern spelling of their  
> components? Correcting place-name spelling to the current  
> orthography of a language can produce a false set of results, which  
> may not be desirable. Where a viable Cornish language version of a  
> place-name has evolved alongside the English version, then I would  
> expect the adoption of the evolved translation of the place-name -  
> e.g. Pyran yn Treth for Perranzabuloe. However, should one always  
> respell place-names in modern orthography - e.g. Ponsanooth, has  
> evolved from Pons-an-oeth (1521 a.d.), through Ponsonoot and Ponce- 
> an-noote, is it right to respell as Pons an Woedh, just because  
> that's how modern orthography dictates it would be spelled if it was  
> coined today? I lived in a village called Send, derived from the  
> Sand found there, and over years it evolved from Sande, through  
> Sende to Send. No-one in Send would expect to respell the place as  
> Sand, because that's how we now spell the material that the village  
> derived its name from is now spelled.
>
> I don't know the answer to all this, and know it is probably a mine- 
> field. I think there will probably be a case by case answer, and so  
> trying to determine a set of rules or guidelines would be fraught.  
> Just interested in peoples' thoughts on this.
>
> Regards
>
> Herbie
>
> eMail: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com
>  Please consider the environment before printing this eMail -  
> thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net 
> ] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
> Sent: 27 January 2010 10:51
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes
>
> Ken,
>
> This advice is very kind of you.  Is there an adopted policy for
> Gaelic place-name representation in Scotland?  Nicholas and Michael -
> is there such a policy in Ireland? Does anyone know if one is in place
> for Welsh place-names?  Or Breton ones?
>
> If so, can I get hold of copies?  If there is such precedent, then
> these can only help in formulating one for Cornwall.
>
> Pol and Julyan seem to think that such signage/map representation is
> for Cornish speakers only.  My argument is different - it's for
> everyone (Oliver seems to agree with that).
>
> Craig
>
>
> On 27 Gen 2010, at 10:23, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> Many thanks for quick reply.   Spelling issues on placename forms
>> are a most imnportant corpus issue.
>>
>> I hope very much that you feel the strength of group support with
>> you on this.  I am sure that Oliver will have strong and positive
>> views on this informed with a great deal of expertise.  He is after
>> all President of EPNS and can speak with authority.
>>
>> Our own experience in Scotland in setting up AAA ( Ainmean Aite na
>> h- Alba - Gaelic Placenamnes of Scotland) - and incorporating this
>> in the official Gaelic language planning process is proving most
>> helpful.
>> and is beginning to show in the environment.
>>
>> Unity is strength and I would suggest that some liaison with this
>> body will be helpful as a resource and as an exemplar of experience.
>>
>> If I can assist in connections shall be glad to do so.
>>
>> Kemer wyth - an Ken ken
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>>
>> ken at ferintosh.org
>> and also at:-
>> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>>
>> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>>
>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
>> Scotland  UK
>>
>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org
>>>
>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] BBC Broadcast
>>
>>
>>> Yes, Ken, both Oliver and I are included.  Our first meeting was  
>>> last
>>> Friday.  That established little more than a basic working practice
>>> policy and the fact that I will have my work heavily cut out to
>>> banish
>>> non-traditional graphs from historic place-names.  I will need to
>>> have
>>> steel heels fitted for the amount of digging in I'll have to do
>>> against Pol and Julyan..
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 Gen 2010, at 16:01, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Craig and friends.
>>>>
>>>> I watched the Inside Out programme courtesy of Sky.   My own
>>>> thoughts were that it did not get us very much further forward.   I
>>>> contributed over an hour of recorded speech - but little more  
>>>> than a
>>>> couple of snippets were used ( in my view on somewhat perpheral
>>>> issues).
>>>>
>>>> The programme contained a lot of stereoptyping, and I thought that
>>>> Mick Catmull would have gotten a bit beyond this onto more salient
>>>> issues.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that CLP have set up a placenames working group.   I
>>>> very much trust that people like yourself, Craig , and Oliver Padel
>>>> have been included.
>>>>
>>>> Jenefer and Nev Meek are due to attend a British & Irish seminar on
>>>> language legislation next week in Edinburgh - and I hope to have  
>>>> the
>>>> opportunity of a session with them on current issues.
>>>>
>>>> - oll an gwella - an Ken ken
>>>>
>>>> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>>>>
>>>> ken at ferintosh.org
>>>> and also at:-
>>>> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>>>>
>>>> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>>>>
>>>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
>>>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>>>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>>>> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
>>>> Scotland  UK
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org
>>>>>
>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:35 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] BBC Broadcast
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I did see this.  Some presenter/interviewer from way out of
>>>>> Cornwall, perpetuating the Dolly Pentreath list and with the usual
>>>>> sneery attitude we've come to expect from the BBC.  'Do you speak
>>>>> Cornish?' he asked the barmaid.  'No," she replied.  'Thank God  
>>>>> for
>>>>> that,' he said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still, Mick, Ray and Denise held their own.  Rather well, I
>>>>> thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've missed the Radio Cornwall programme today on which some
>>>>> academic
>>>>> from the University of Durham is being allowed to opine that the
>>>>> Cornish, as a people, don't exist.  (If this was done against a
>>>>> black
>>>>> or Asian group, there would be all hell to pay and probably
>>>>> prosecutions as well).  Ok, so I don't exist, therefore this
>>>>> message
>>>>> has never been sent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 Gen 2010, at 14:42, j.mills at email.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For those who missed the BBC broadcast concerning the Cornish
>>>>>> language (Monday 25 January), it can be found on BBC iPLayer at
>>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qg3bb/Inside_Out_South_West_25_01_2010/
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Fast forward to about 9 mins 50 secs into the programme for the
>>>>>> part
>>>>>> concerning the Cornish language.
>>>>>> Ol an gwella
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>> _____________________________________
>>>>>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>>>>>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>>>>>> University of Kent
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>
>>>
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>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
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--
Craig Weatherhill