[Spellyans] The Celtic Languages
Ray Chubb
ray at spyrys.org
Fri Jan 29 13:52:41 GMT 2010
The clear bias and distortion of fact in this section must surely
serve to devalue the whole publication.
On 29 Gen 2010, at 13:06, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
> A gowetha-oll,
>
> The Celtic Languages 2nd Edition has been or is just about to be
> published ( eds. Martin J. Ball and Nicole Mueller, Routledge 2009
> ISBN 978-0-415-42279-6 (hbk) ISBN 978-0-203-88248-1 (ebk) I have
> recently received complimentary copies of this publication, having
> contributed a chapter on Scottish Gaelic today: social history and
> contempraray status. ( Ch 13).
>
> There are two chapters relating to Cornish: : Ch 11 dealing with
> linguistic issues, history, language varieties and orthography; and
> Ch 16 dealing with the revived languages, Cornish and Manx. Dr Ken
> George has contributed Ch 11and is joint author with Dr George
> Broderick of Ch 16.
>
> The earlier historical chapter is presented in a factual manner but
> I felt that the account of the revived language might have dealt
> rather more fully with language planning, development and
> infrastructural matters in the past decade. This section ( p. 760)
> may be of interest to the group:-
>
> ________________________________
>
> A group called Agan Tavas was formed to serve the interests of those
> who wish to write in Unified Cornish (and also UCR). Those who use
> Revived Late Cornish may belong to another group called Cussel an
> Tavas.
>
> READY TO RUN
>
> In 2002, after a long campaign, Cornish was finally recognised by
> the UK government under Part II of the European Charter for Minority
> Languages. In principle, this gave Cornish a measure of official
> status which it had never previously enjoyed. In practice, it
> allowed a larger sum of money to be made available to the language
> than formerly. This money is channelled though Cornwall Council,
> which set up a partnership on which serve councillors and
> representatives of language groups.
>
> The prospect of money caused the groups who do not use Kemmyn to
> cease squabbling among themselves and to attack Kemmyn, They re-
> opened the question of orthography, placing it on the agenda of the
> partnership. Nicholas Williams criticized Kemmyn, claiming that it
> was linguistically flawed. The partnership appointed a commission
> to look into the question of the spelling. They were charged with
> determining which of the four principal existing oethographies
> (Kemmyn, Unified, UCR and revived Late Cornish) would be best for
> use in education and public life. During the course of their
> deliberations two 'compromise' forms were devised. The commission
> compiled its report without either ascertaining the numerical
> support for the various factions, or consulting the various bodies
> which suppport the language. They stated verbally that the
> linguistic basis of Kernewek Kemmyn is sound. They recommended
> that a new discussion group be set up to consider the question of
> orthography.
>
> Hitherto the Cornish language movement has been run by
> enthusiasts, who have made great progress with a notable effort of
> will. If the possibility of increased financial support is
> realized, then it will fundamentally change the nature of the
> movement. This prospect is already causing considerable internal
> strain. It remains to be seen how the movement will cope. We can
> no doubt learn from our Celtic neighbours and indeed from other
> minority language groups.
> _______________________
>
> ( Section ends. The words Kemmyn and Kernewek Kemmyn are in
> italics in the original. Upper case R is used for Revived Late
> Cornish in its first mention, and lower case r is used in the
> subsequent mention of revived Late Cornish.)
>
> My own observation on this are twofold. It is very difficult for
> anyone who contributes material to a standard academic text such as
> this absolutely to ensure that all details are factually correct
> ( especially information on dates and events.) I am very much
> aware of this myself and welcome challenge and correction in this
> respect.
>
> I feel that the sentence commencing: ' In 2002...... could be
> better revised to : 'In 2003 ...the UK government declared that it
> recognised Cornish under Part II of the European Charter for
> Regional or Minority Languages ( declaration effective as of 18
> March 2003). HM Goverenment confirmed that it recognised such
> languages as official languages of the UK by an official statement
> in the Hoiuse of Lords on 12 June 2003.
>
> I discussed these issues in an article in Cornish Studies 12 ( 2004).
>
> I find that the sentences commencing : 'They stated verbally...'
> and 'They recommended...' are ambiguous. Does the 'they' refer to
> the immediately preceding 'various bodies which support the
> language', or to the earlier mention of 'the commission' ?
>
> There may be other observations on this text. - an Ken ken
>
>
> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband with new e-mail addresses:-
>
> ken at ferintosh.org
> and also at:-
> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>
> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>
> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
> Ross-shire IV 7 8HX
> Scotland UK
>
> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org
> >
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place names
>
>
>> Jon,
>>
>> My list has: Seyntdeye 1351; Seynt Dey 1358, 1380, 1401, 1511: Saint
>> Deie 1393; Sendey 1398; Seyndey 1399, 1420; Seint Dei 1435; Sent
>> Dey c.
>> 1510; St Degye c.1510; St Daye 1584; St Dye c.1700; St Day 1794. The
>> problem here is that these are all English or Latin records.
>>
>> The saint is pretty obscure but is though to be the St Dei who is
>> venerated in Brittany. Oliver Padel says: "He is widely honoured in
>> Brittany, but nothing is known of him. There is not even any record
>> of St Day being venerated at this place, apart from the place name.
>> The chapel here, a frequent object of pilgrimage in the Middle Ages,
>> was dedicated instead to the Holy Trinity and so mentioned in 1269.
>> The traditional pronunciation, 'St Dye', was still known in 1949."
>> This last sentence supports the spelling 'Dei/Dey'.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On 29 Gen 2010, at 09:09, j.mills at email.com wrote:
>>
>>> Craig,
>>> What do you have on the place name "St Day"?
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>>> University of Kent
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 28, 2010 4:05 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place names
>>>
>>> Tom - lenition to proper nouns does not occur after 'eglos' and
>>> mustn't be introduced - you'll find Eglostetha, Eglosmadern,
>>> Eglosberyan (never Eglosdetha or Eglosvadern - a very late
>>> Eglosveryan does exist but is most likely a hypercorrection). Why
>>> this is, we don't know for certain: it might a rule pertaining to
>>> proper nouns or it could be that devoicing is caused by the final S
>>> of eglos. Lan, on the other hand, nearly always causes lenition to
>>> the following proper noun.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On 28 Gen 2010, at 14:07, Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>
>>> > There is a very good "reason for it". The Cornish form (I favour >
>>> Eglosveryan) indicates the pronunciation, while the Anglicized St >
>>> Buryan is ambiguous in this respect.
>>> >
>>> > Tom
>>> >
>>> > --- On Thu, 28/1/10, John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
>>> > Subject: [Spellyans] Place names
>>> > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> > Date: Thursday, 28 January, 2010, 10:12
>>> >
>>> > How much support are people finding for Cornish to be used in
>>> public > signage? I recently mailed St Buryan Parish council to ask
>>> why our > very nice brand new village sign didn't include somehwere
>>> the name > in Cornish, as this wouldn't have added to the cost. The
>>> answer was > simply that "they saw no reason for it" and that "of
>>> the eleven > councillors, ten were St Buryan born and bred".
>>> > Oll an gwella
>>> > John Nash
>>> > Lamorna (Sadly, not born and bred in St Buryan)
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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Ray Chubb
Portreth
Kernow
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