[Spellyans] The Celtic Languages

Ray Chubb ray at spyrys.org
Fri Jan 29 13:52:41 GMT 2010


The clear bias and distortion of fact in this section must surely  
serve to devalue the whole publication.

On 29 Gen 2010, at 13:06, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> A gowetha-oll,
>
> The Celtic Languages 2nd Edition has been or is just about to be  
> published ( eds. Martin J. Ball and Nicole Mueller, Routledge 2009  
> ISBN 978-0-415-42279-6 (hbk) ISBN 978-0-203-88248-1 (ebk)    I have  
> recently received complimentary copies of this publication, having  
> contributed a chapter on Scottish Gaelic today: social history and  
> contempraray status. ( Ch 13).
>
> There are two chapters relating to Cornish: : Ch 11 dealing with  
> linguistic issues, history, language varieties and orthography; and  
> Ch 16 dealing with the revived languages, Cornish and Manx.  Dr Ken  
> George has contributed Ch 11and is joint author with Dr George  
> Broderick of Ch 16.
>
> The earlier historical chapter is presented in a factual manner but  
> I felt that the account of the revived language might have dealt  
> rather more fully with language planning, development and  
> infrastructural matters in the past decade.   This section ( p. 760)  
> may be of interest to the group:-
>
> ________________________________
>
> A group called Agan Tavas was formed to serve the interests of those  
> who wish to write in Unified Cornish (and also UCR).  Those who use  
> Revived Late Cornish may belong to another group called Cussel an  
> Tavas.
>
> READY TO RUN
>
> In 2002, after a long campaign, Cornish was finally recognised by  
> the UK government under Part II of the European Charter for Minority  
> Languages.  In principle, this gave Cornish a measure of official  
> status which it had never previously enjoyed.   In practice, it  
> allowed a larger sum of money to be made available to the language  
> than formerly.   This money is channelled though Cornwall Council,  
> which set up a partnership on which serve councillors and  
> representatives of language groups.
>
>  The prospect of money caused the groups who do not use Kemmyn to  
> cease squabbling among themselves and to attack Kemmyn,  They re- 
> opened the question of orthography, placing it on the agenda of the  
> partnership. Nicholas Williams criticized Kemmyn, claiming that it  
> was linguistically flawed.   The partnership appointed a commission  
> to look into the question of the spelling.  They were charged with  
> determining which of the four principal existing oethographies  
> (Kemmyn, Unified, UCR and revived Late Cornish) would be best for  
> use in education and public life.   During the course of their  
> deliberations two 'compromise' forms were devised.   The commission  
> compiled its report without either ascertaining the numerical  
> support for the various factions, or consulting the various bodies  
> which suppport the language.   They stated verbally that the  
> linguistic basis of Kernewek Kemmyn is sound.   They recommended  
> that a new discussion group be set up to consider the question of  
> orthography.
>
>   Hitherto the Cornish language movement has been run by  
> enthusiasts, who have made great progress with a notable effort of  
> will.   If the possibility of increased financial support is  
> realized, then it will fundamentally change the nature of the  
> movement.   This prospect is already causing considerable internal  
> strain.   It remains to be seen how the movement will cope.  We can  
> no doubt learn from our Celtic neighbours and indeed from other  
> minority language groups.
> _______________________
>
> ( Section ends.   The words Kemmyn and Kernewek Kemmyn are in  
> italics in the original.   Upper case R is used for Revived Late  
> Cornish in its first mention, and lower case r is used in the  
> subsequent mention of revived Late Cornish.)
>
> My own observation on this are twofold.   It is very difficult for  
> anyone who contributes material to a standard academic text such as  
> this absolutely to ensure that all details are factually correct  
> ( especially information on dates and events.)   I am very much  
> aware of this myself and welcome challenge and correction in this  
> respect.
>
> I feel that the sentence commencing: ' In 2002......   could be  
> better revised to : 'In 2003 ...the UK government declared that it  
> recognised Cornish under Part II of the European Charter for  
> Regional or Minority Languages ( declaration effective as of 18  
> March 2003).   HM Goverenment confirmed that it recognised such  
> languages as official languages of the UK by an official statement  
> in the Hoiuse of  Lords on 12 June 2003.
>
> I discussed these issues in an article in Cornish Studies 12 ( 2004).
>
> I find that the sentences commencing : 'They stated verbally...'   
> and 'They recommended...' are ambiguous.  Does the 'they' refer to  
> the immediately preceding 'various bodies which support the  
> language', or to the earlier mention of  'the commission' ?
>
> There may be other observations on this text.  - an Ken ken
>
>
> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>
> ken at ferintosh.org
> and also at:-
> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>
> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>
> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
> Scotland  UK
>
> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org 
> >
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 11:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place names
>
>
>> Jon,
>>
>> My list has:  Seyntdeye 1351; Seynt Dey 1358, 1380, 1401, 1511: Saint
>> Deie 1393; Sendey 1398; Seyndey 1399, 1420; Seint Dei 1435; Sent  
>> Dey c.
>> 1510; St Degye c.1510; St Daye 1584; St Dye c.1700; St Day 1794.  The
>> problem here is that these are all English or Latin records.
>>
>> The saint is pretty obscure but is though to be the St Dei who is
>> venerated in Brittany.  Oliver Padel says: "He is widely honoured in
>> Brittany, but nothing is known of him.  There is not even any record
>> of St Day being venerated at this place, apart from the place name.
>> The chapel here, a frequent object of pilgrimage in the Middle Ages,
>> was dedicated instead to the Holy Trinity and so mentioned in 1269.
>> The traditional pronunciation, 'St Dye', was still known in 1949."
>> This last sentence supports the spelling 'Dei/Dey'.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On 29 Gen 2010, at 09:09, j.mills at email.com wrote:
>>
>>> Craig,
>>> What do you have on the place name "St Day"?
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>>> University of Kent
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 28, 2010 4:05 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place names
>>>
>>> Tom - lenition to proper nouns does not occur after 'eglos' and
>>> mustn't be introduced - you'll find Eglostetha, Eglosmadern,
>>> Eglosberyan (never Eglosdetha or Eglosvadern - a very late
>>> Eglosveryan does exist but is most likely a hypercorrection). Why
>>> this is, we don't know for certain: it might a rule pertaining to
>>> proper nouns or it could be that devoicing is caused by the final S
>>> of eglos. Lan, on the other hand, nearly always causes lenition to
>>> the following proper noun.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On 28 Gen 2010, at 14:07, Tom Trethewey wrote:
>>>
>>> > There is a very good "reason for it". The Cornish form (I favour >
>>> Eglosveryan) indicates the pronunciation, while the Anglicized St >
>>> Buryan is ambiguous in this respect.
>>> >
>>> > Tom
>>> >
>>> > --- On Thu, 28/1/10, John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
>>> > Subject: [Spellyans] Place names
>>> > To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> > Date: Thursday, 28 January, 2010, 10:12
>>> >
>>> > How much support are people finding for Cornish to be used in
>>> public > signage? I recently mailed St Buryan Parish council to ask
>>> why our > very nice brand new village sign didn't include somehwere
>>> the name > in Cornish, as this wouldn't have added to the cost. The
>>> answer was > simply that "they saw no reason for it" and that "of
>>> the eleven > councillors, ten were St Buryan born and bred".
>>> > Oll an gwella
>>> > John Nash
>>> > Lamorna (Sadly, not born and bred in St Buryan)
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Spellyans mailing list
>>> > Spellyans at kernowek.net
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>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Spellyans mailing list
>>> > Spellyans at kernowek.net
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>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
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Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow








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