[Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes

Sat Jan 30 11:40:45 GMT 2010

Mur ras dhys, a Craig ker.

I think that this advice is sound, detailed and provides a basis which all 
concerned should find consensual.  This is especially welcome coming from a 
source which had a specific language variety as its starting point and which 
supporters of that original form felt was a sound basis for input into the 
SWF.   Above all it is user-friendly towards the wider non-Cornish-user 
general public.

Yesterday evening I had a long talk by phone with Nev who is chair of the 
signage / placenames group and I feel he has a real desire for a consensual 
approach and practical outcomes.  At present we are undertaking active 
provision of policy in this field regarding Gaelic on roadsigns, street 
signs, and station name-boards.   Peadar Morgan is the Bord na Gaidhlig 
officer who has most involvement in this.   He also has recently demitted 
offce as chair of the placenames authority Ainmean Aite na h-Alba - and I 
feel he would be of great assistance to you in your efforts.  You may recall 
he addressed the CLP conference at Tremough about 3 years ago.   I was able 
to introduce Nev to him when Nev visited Inverness and Bord HQ a few weeks 
ago.

pub bolunjeth da - Ken

Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes

> Many thanks, Ken.  I was reminded of what Albert and Ben wrote when
> describing their KD proposal prior to the Commissioners'
> recommendations.  What they had to say, I totally agree with and
> attach it here.  I will do the same to the Signage Panel and hope it
> encourages some of them to see sense.
>
> Craig

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> On 29 Gen 2010, at 16:29, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> There is a policy ( + / - ) for Gaelic place-names, and is in course
>> of being strengthened.   It is in course of being taken into the
>> language planning process as a corpus / usage matter.  Your best bet
>> is Peadar Morgan who is the appropriate Bord na Gaidhlig officer on
>> this.
>>
>> peadar.morgan at bord-na-gaidhlig.org.uk
>>
>> I have discussed this issue of Cornish placenames with him.  You may
>> recall he addressed the CLP conference at Tremough about 3 years ago.
>>
>> I am aware of a placenames policy in Wales.  Originally it was
>> handled by the Univ of Wales Board of Celtic Studies and they
>> published an authoritative list Rhestr o Enwau Lleoedd at about the
>> time of the Bowen Commission on Welsh / bilingual roadsigns.    I am
>> not sure who handles this now - but I would imagine that the
>> authoritative source for placename forms and spellings is probably
>> still the Board   I imagine if asked the Welsh Language Board would
>> come back PDQ with what is current practice.
>>
>> I imagine too that Peadar would get back to you ASAP if you emailed
>> him.
>>
>> I think there is strength in quoting precedent in other Celtic
>> contexts. In Scotland and Wales the matter is determined by
>> specialist, expert advice. It is not settled by majority of hands at
>> committees.
>>
>> I am very much with you that placenames are for all.  This means
>> that they have to be authentic, grounded on sound linguistic /
>> onomastic principles and acceptable to a wider public than the
>> various language groups alone.   I am very pleased if Oliver is of
>> similar views.
>>
>> - pub nerth dhys rag an ober - Ken
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>>
>> ken at ferintosh.org
>> and also at:-
>> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>>
>> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>>
>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
>> Scotland  UK
>>
>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" 
>> <craig at agantavas.org
>> >
>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling: placemanes
>>
>>
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> This advice is very kind of you.  Is there an adopted policy for
>>> Gaelic place-name representation in Scotland?  Nicholas and Michael -
>>> is there such a policy in Ireland? Does anyone know if one is in
>>> place
>>> for Welsh place-names?  Or Breton ones?
>>>
>>> If so, can I get hold of copies?  If there is such precedent, then
>>> these can only help in formulating one for Cornwall.
>>>
>>> Pol and Julyan seem to think that such signage/map representation is
>>> for Cornish speakers only.  My argument is different - it's for
>>> everyone (Oliver seems to agree with that).
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27 Gen 2010, at 10:23, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Craig,
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks for quick reply.   Spelling issues on placename forms
>>>> are a most imnportant corpus issue.
>>>>
>>>> I hope very much that you feel the strength of group support with
>>>> you on this.  I am sure that Oliver will have strong and positive
>>>> views on this informed with a great deal of expertise.  He is after
>>>> all President of EPNS and can speak with authority.
>>>>
>>>> Our own experience in Scotland in setting up AAA ( Ainmean Aite na
>>>> h- Alba - Gaelic Placenamnes of Scotland) - and incorporating this
>>>> in the official Gaelic language planning process is proving most
>>>> helpful.
>>>> and is beginning to show in the environment.
>>>>
>>>> Unity is strength and I would suggest that some liaison with this
>>>> body will be helpful as a resource and as an exemplar of experience.
>>>>
>>>> If I can assist in connections shall be glad to do so.
>>>>
>>>> Kemer wyth - an Ken ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>>>>
>>>> ken at ferintosh.org
>>>> and also at:-
>>>> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>>>>
>>>> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>>>>
>>>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
>>>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>>>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>>>> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
>>>> Scotland  UK
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" 
>>>> <craig at agantavas.org
>>>> >
>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:12 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] BBC Broadcast
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Ken, both Oliver and I are included.  Our first meeting was
>>>>> last
>>>>> Friday.  That established little more than a basic working practice
>>>>> policy and the fact that I will have my work heavily cut out to
>>>>> banish
>>>>> non-traditional graphs from historic place-names.  I will need to
>>>>> have
>>>>> steel heels fitted for the amount of digging in I'll have to do
>>>>> against Pol and Julyan..
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 Gen 2010, at 16:01, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig and friends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I watched the Inside Out programme courtesy of Sky.   My own
>>>>>> thoughts were that it did not get us very much further
>>>>>> forward.   I
>>>>>> contributed over an hour of recorded speech - but little more
>>>>>> than a
>>>>>> couple of snippets were used ( in my view on somewhat perpheral
>>>>>> issues).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The programme contained a lot of stereoptyping, and I thought that
>>>>>> Mick Catmull would have gotten a bit beyond this onto more salient
>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand that CLP have set up a placenames working group.   I
>>>>>> very much trust that people like yourself, Craig , and Oliver
>>>>>> Padel
>>>>>> have been included.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jenefer and Nev Meek are due to attend a British & Irish seminar
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> language legislation next week in Edinburgh - and I hope to have
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> opportunity of a session with them on current issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - oll an gwella - an Ken ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ken at ferintosh.org
>>>>>> and also at:-
>>>>>> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
>>>>>> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
>>>>>> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
>>>>>> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
>>>>>> Scotland  UK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" 
>>>>>> <craig at agantavas.org
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] BBC Broadcast
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I did see this.  Some presenter/interviewer from way out of
>>>>>>> Cornwall, perpetuating the Dolly Pentreath list and with the
>>>>>>> usual
>>>>>>> sneery attitude we've come to expect from the BBC.  'Do you speak
>>>>>>> Cornish?' he asked the barmaid.  'No," she replied.  'Thank God
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> that,' he said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, Mick, Ray and Denise held their own.  Rather well, I
>>>>>>> thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've missed the Radio Cornwall programme today on which some
>>>>>>> academic
>>>>>>> from the University of Durham is being allowed to opine that the
>>>>>>> Cornish, as a people, don't exist.  (If this was done against a
>>>>>>> black
>>>>>>> or Asian group, there would be all hell to pay and probably
>>>>>>> prosecutions as well).  Ok, so I don't exist, therefore this
>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>> has never been sent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 26 Gen 2010, at 14:42, j.mills at email.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those who missed the BBC broadcast concerning the Cornish
>>>>>>>> language (Monday 25 January), it can be found on BBC iPLayer at
>>>>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qg3bb/Inside_Out_South_West_25_01_2010/
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> Fast forward to about 9 mins 50 secs into the programme for the
>>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>> concerning the Cornish language.
>>>>>>>> Ol an gwella
>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>> _____________________________________
>>>>>>>> Dr. Jon Mills,
>>>>>>>> School of European Culture and Languages,
>>>>>>>> University of Kent
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>>
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>>
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>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>

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