[Spellyans] Does 'D' and 'T' sometimes mutate to ''N'?

Ken MacKinnon ken at ferintosh.org
Mon Jun 14 15:11:39 IST 2010


Yes I have noticed this too e.g. Porth Navas for Porth 'n Davas.   This 
seems to be a similar feature to eclipsis in Irish.  It occurs in spoken 
Scottish Gaelic also - althoiugh it is not written.

Ken

Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

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(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
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Tel: 01349 - 863460


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ewan wilson" <butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Does 'D' and 'T' sometimes mutate to ''N'?


> Thanks, Ray, for very interesting insight into how passing the language on 
> should be done!
> On a narrower Spellyans issue:-
> In some passages I've been coming across words like 'dor' mutated( I 
> presume) to 'nor' and 'tavas' to 'navas'. Is this a regualr feature of 
> such plosives? If so, how come it's not been mentioned in the official 
> Mutations tables?
>
> Ewan.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ray Chubb" <ray at spyrys.org>
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] UCR-Best orthography, richest vocabulary?
>
>
>>
>> On 9 Efn 2010, at 20:36, ewan wilson wrote:
>>
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> It is heartening to see that the newest manuscript discovery seems  to 
>>> have vindicated the main ideas of the 'Nancean' synthesists, if  one may 
>>> so put it!
>>> It makes me doubt if learning the largely abandoned UCR is a waste  of 
>>> time after all! UCR has the virtue of remaining very close to UC  so 
>>> making its literary corpus quite accessible and also enriching  the 
>>> vocabulary base, quite apart from evidently being an accurate 
>>> reflection of the traditional texts. And it seems to dovetail 
>>> reasonably easily with LC from what Craig says here.
>>> What do 'second generation' speakers think of UCR as opposed to UC?  I 
>>> seem to remember the Chubb kids were raised with Cornish UC.
>>
>> I still use only Cornish with my sons on a daily basis.  They're  not 
>> much for the reading and writing side of things but they have adopted 
>> forms like 'anedhans' in place of 'anedha' and can read UCR without  any 
>> problems when they have to.
>>
>>> Are they or any others like them still active speakers? Or is there  a 
>>> phenomenon of second generation 'fall out'?
>>
>> Yes, there does seem to be.  I suppose I was more of a disciplinarian 
>> than a lot of parents of my generation and this applied to the  language. 
>> I would use only Cornish and if they ever did try to use  English with 
>> me, which I think was very rare, they would get very  little response.  I 
>> remember talking to a reporter from one of the  Sunday papers and he 
>> seemed to think it was cruel to make the boys  tell me how much their 
>> pocket money was in Cornish before they could  have it.  Apart from this 
>> we did and do have a lot of fun with and in  the language.  I never 
>> pretend to know more than I actually do.
>>
>>> I know Welsh and Gaelic kids who, for whatever reasons, have sadly 
>>> dropped the language once they reach adulthood.
>>> Finally, how healthy is LC? We hear little from its proponents-  apart 
>>> from Jan!
>>> And what does 'pylarluth' mean, for goodness sake?! Can't find it in 
>>> any of my vocabularies, very frustrating!
>>
>> The clue is in the story; it means 'Rag Lord'.
>>
>>>
>>> Ewan.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" 
>>> <craig at agantavas.org
>>> >
>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:11 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] An SWF glossary & Unified versus SWF
>>>
>>>
>>>> I should add that the discovery and examination of 'Bewnans Ke' 
>>>> underlined how good Nance (and Williams) were/are.  Nance had taken  an 
>>>> educated guess at certain words which weren't within the  available 
>>>> corpus and the occurrence of several of those words in  BK proved him 
>>>> right.  Also, the additional information contained  in BK slotted into 
>>>> UCR so well and so easily that it shows how  very good that was, too.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Efn 2010, at 09:04, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's a very valid point, Ray.  Everyone acknowledge that there 
>>>>> were inherent faults within UC (given the limited material Nance  had 
>>>>> to work with, that's hardly a surprise) which needed  attention.  UCR 
>>>>> addressed that problem, with subtle, gentle  adjustments that didn't 
>>>>> compromise the overall integrity of UC.   It is a shame that the SWF 
>>>>> process got in the way of its progress  because I was very happy with 
>>>>> UCR.  I was very comfortable with  it and, having been more used to 
>>>>> LC, that's quite a testament to  UCR.  I wrote the first edition of 
>>>>> "Cornish Place-Names and  Language" in RLC, but rewrote the second 
>>>>> edition in UCR (cheekily  referring to it as "standard Cornish", as a 
>>>>> kick-back against the  claims being made by the Kesva).  I found the 
>>>>> adjustment very easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 Efn 2010, at 08:17, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8 Efn 2010, at 22:30, Christian Semmens wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't get me wrong, I like UC, I like its aesthetic, I also 
>>>>>>> appreciate the warm place it has in many hearts, but its days  are 
>>>>>>> passed as the primary vehicle for written Cornish. It  served its 
>>>>>>> purpose fairly well, but its downfall came with the  rigidity of 
>>>>>>> those who failed to adapt when its inadequacies  became too much 
>>>>>>> for many to bear. It had a brief chance in the  90s with UCR, but 
>>>>>>> again the chance was lost with the failure to  adapt, with users 
>>>>>>> sticking doggedly to the original ossified  form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much of the reason for this was the fact that the Cornish  Language 
>>>>>> Board would not allow their exams to be taken in UCR.   If the 
>>>>>> Language Board feared UCR so much that tells us that it  has got 
>>>>>> something worth hanging on to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray Chubb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Portreth
>>>>>> Kernow
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> Ray Chubb
>>
>> Portreth
>> Kernow
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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