[Spellyans] Spelling and linguistics - Yes

janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk
Wed Jun 16 12:59:14 IST 2010

This is what we in the Cussel have been saying until we are blue in the face. RLC should be taught first as the colloquial/conversational form of Cornish, with simplified grammar and spelling (authentic, naturally), progressing to the more literary forms of UC/UCR when the children (and adults) have become proficient in that. I'm sure there would be far fewer drop-outs.Jan

----Original Message----

From: brynbow at btinternet.com

Date: 16/06/2010 9:09 

To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>

Subj: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and linguistics - Yes

Thanks for the comments, Ewan. Literary Welsh 
indeed makes more use of inflected verbs, but not, I think, to be 
particularly Latinate. All the Celtic languages were quite highly inflected, 
just as was Latin.  And they have become simplified in speech. (How did 
they get so highly inflected in the first place?!)  Your description of the 
difficulties of learning the UC of Nance makes the point. Nance's UC produced 
few really fluent speakers. That is why Dick Gendall turned to Late Cornish 
which Jenner also considered a legitimate part of the heritage. As I said 
before, KK only tried to improve UC's orthography to make it easier to get the 
pronunciation right. In this he was unsuccessful because few follow all of his 
guidelines. What really concerns me is the problem of what register should be 
used in primary schools because it seems that this hasn't been discussed. Maybe 
the Partnership's two new education officers are thinking about it. Literary 
Welsh is not used in Welsh primary schools. It was realised in the 50's and 60's 
that this didn't work and steps were successfully taken to improve the 
situation.  Successful learners, and of course L1 speakers gradually come 
to more literary versions of the language as they read more widely. So, to come 
back to 'Spellyans',  if  an officially acceptable  orthography 
is not worked out for all aspects of RLC then as Craig suggested, the SWF 
favoured by mainly KK followers, and the formal language that goes with it, will 
take precedence in 2013. How many fluent Cornish infants will come out of that? 
Or am I overstating the case and being too negative? What do other people on 
this list think? Michael, what do you think?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  ewan wilson 
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:41 
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and 
  linguistics - Yes

  Well, Chris , I'm glad somebody has had the 
  same idea about there being a parallel with the Welsh Literary- 
  Colloquial division. To be honest, the Welsh I've learned has been the 'Gog' 
  colloquial version. Looking at the more literary Welsh, it strikes me it maybe 
  aspires to be more 'Latinate' with its more elaborate accidence, word order, 
  etc whereas the colloquial has to some extent 'simplified'. 
  I've just been galloping back through good, old 
  Cornish Simplified and one is remnded by Lesson 17 of the sheer 'finickness' 
  of the language with its various verbal particles, compounded by the quite 
  complex mutation systems. These all have to juggled in ones head, along with a 
  half decent stab at pronunciation and I have nothing but admiration for those 
  who have managed it. However it is an impressive achievement of Nance and 
  I think it desrves our best effort. The one ting that does go through my 
  mind is would this really be the form of Cornish that Dolly Pentreath and the 
  later users would readily recognise? Or would they more easily align with the 
  Late Cornish of Gendall, et al? 
  I think the one of the beauties of UCR is 
  its ready assimilation of the actual Late(-ish!) English borrowings which 
  far from diluting the language seem to give it added, distinctively 
  Cornish pungency, oddly enough! 
  I was watching a Scottish Gaelic TV programme 
  this evening and it struck me the amount of English  two native 
  speakers had to insert into their conversation eg, 'upside down', 'slug 
  pellets', 'keeping up with the Jones's'( maybe this last is Welsh?!). Is this 
  necessarily a sign of 'decay' or simple lack of advanced literacy? After all, 
  travelling on a bus daily, one can hear lots of English conversation with 
  fairly restricted vocabulary bases!!
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
    Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:25 
    Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and 
    linguistics - Yes

    Maybe I need to say now that an interest in 
    linguistics certainly does not mean that I think KK was ever a good idea. 
    What  I do think is that Ewan's thought is right and that UC is a 
    literary form of the language and RLC is like the spoken form - of the same 
    language, which corresponds to the picture in Welsh. KK is a different way 
    of spelling UC. Isn't it? I'm not sure how UCR fits into this picture. 
    But RLC needs to be written down, which raises problems. What for example is 
    to happen to the verbal particle 'ow'? RLC leaves it out or reduces it to 
    'a'.  Would this be acceptable using SWF, or in using KS for that 
    matter. Chris
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      Christian Semmens 
      To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
      Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:01 
      Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and 
      linguistics - Yes
Hi Ray,

It is amazing when you first try 

However, it does require full familiarity with the language to 
      do it. And as Chris says, it certainly wouldn't help a learner pronounce 
      English, not that English does a good job of that anyway! 




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