[Spellyans] Spelling and linguistics - Yes

janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk
Thu Jun 17 06:33:09 IST 2010


Thinking sideways to avoid the problem I'd probably say"Pe liu venja whei kenz?" or"Pe liu ew gwell gena whei?"
Jan




----Original Message----

From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com

Date: 16/06/2010 21:21 

To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>

Subj: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and linguistics - Yes







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	BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui)
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Chris,
 
You put the case perfectly in my view and the 
Welsh example is a very mild one of the contrasting complexity-simplicity of the 
two registers! The difference between trying to acquire Welsh through an old TYS 
Welsh from 1960 ( Bowen &Rhys Jones) and the fantastic  
Routledge Modern Welsh by Gareth King is virtually night and 
day! 
Mind you, as a Scot I have to sat the 
easiest Celtic language to learn I've found is Scots Gaelic. It has a 
wonderful orthography, a fairly simple mutations system compared with all 
its other Celtic sisters, and its word order strikes this learner at least 
as less confusingly varied. 
What I mainly wanted to say, though,  is 
that I agree wholeheartedly that the Tavas A Ragadazow I found was a 
delightful book and I am wondering what led to its abandonment and what is in 
its place so far as LC is concerned? I also enjoyed using Rod Lyons' 
Everyday Cornish , a sort of Late/UC   amalgam? 

I still usually end up back at my trusty 
Cornish Smplified and so reckon it will be worth first doing say, 
Hilary Shaw's step-by-step way into it, along with regular dipping into 
Caradar's masterpiece!
By the way, as illustrative of the finicky 
difficulties ( or my block-headedness) can anyone say whether 'yma or 'usy' 
should be used in translating the sentence-
'Which colour pleases you the most?' 

Py lyw yma ow plekya dhys moya? or
Py lyw usy( or us!) ow plekya dhys 
moya?
 
I'm bamboozled!
 
Ewan. 
  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Chris 
  Parkinson 
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 4:47 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and 
  linguistics - Yes
  

  Daniel, It's good to read of your support for 
  RLC. But there is a danger in referring to ''pidginised my-a-wra'' 
  Kernowek.  'My ra + verb' is actually a normal part of spoken 
  Cornish and  one of the reasons that Nance avoided late forms in 
  UC was because he thought they were somehow sub-standard. This sort of 
  belief lingered in Welsh for many years, putting native Welsh speakers off 
  using the language as they thought the way they spoke it was not good enough. 
  This same view may be putting people off RLC. It is all to the good that we 
  can now talk happily about colloquial and literary registers, and hopefully 
  choose the right one for the job in hand, whether that is to teach infants or 
  write poetry or whatever.
  I'll give an example from Welsh: 'Yr wyf fi yn 
  mynd'  = I am going (lit.)
                                                 
  'Dwi'n mynd' = I'm going (coll. gog-N.Wales)
  Compare Cornish: 'Yth esov vy ow mos' 
  (lit.)  'Thera vy mos' (coll)
  They are different styles. Neither is 'bad' 
  or 'wrong'.  But the shorter colloquial versions are better for 
  learners, especially young learners.
   
  Chris
  
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: 
    Daniel Prohaska 
    To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' 
    
    Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:26 
    PM
    Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Spelling and 
    linguistics - Yes
    

    
    Dear all, 
    
       I share the 
    sentiments, especially with Jan and Mina. It was always my impression that 
    RLC is so much easier to learn. Just to grasp the basics and achieve 
    relative functionality soon. The set of auxiliary verbs, phrases and idioms 
    allows you to say a great deal in very little time, whereas it takes for 
    ages to achieve the same kind of functionality in the literary RMC register, 
    with all its complicated verbal inflections, that were even rarer in MC 
    proper than portrayed in most UC and KK textbooks. Albert Bock, who teaches 
    Breton at the university of Vienna also says that Breton confronts 
    the students with many formal rules before they can achieve relative 
    functionality and Breton verbal inflections are much more regular than the 
    RMC paradigms with their multiple vowel alternations. 
    
       RMC is so 
    difficult, that the learner has to resort to a pidginised “my-a-wra”-Kernowek to be able to say 
    the most basic things, where RLC offers an elegant idiom, which is equally 
    easy. The present tense with bos + ow + verbal noun is also chronically 
    underused, preferring the present-future as a translation for the English 
    simple present which just doesn’t always gel. 
      
       I wrote to Ray 
    Edwards years ago to ask him if he would support my re-writing his otherwise 
    very well structured KDL course to accommodate UCR and RLC users, but he 
    declined. 
       What Chris and 
    Craig point at is absolutely correct. The big downer for people wanting to 
    use RLC was the inconsistency of the spelling and the many changes of the 
    spelling system. I, too, liked the spelling in Tavas a Ragadazow very much, which was 
    actually very close to what the UdnFormScrefys-group came up with when 
    they presented KS1 – after recent re-viewing – a fine orthography, one that 
    I would have enjoyed writing. This orthography was designed to deal with a 
    colloquial and literary register and I still believe it did an excellent 
    job, fantastically presented in the specification Michael wrote with Neil at 
    his side. 
    Dan
     
    -----Original 
    Message-----
From: Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 
    3:41 PM


    “When UCR first appeared, I saw it as the 
    first realistic bridge between RMC and RLC.  I had persevered with RLC 
    but the problem was that Dick would not make his mind up about a settled 
    orthography. He'd say: "Right, this is it", then 6 months later change his 
    mind, and he's still doing it.  It was doing my head in, and learners 
    just couldn't hack it.  Just look at the bewildering difference between 
    Tavas a Ragadazow (which I thought was a lovely orthography) and "Practical 
    Modern Cornish" (to my mind, a terrible orthography) - only 3 years between 
    them.
    I really do think that, if RLC had 
    settled an orthography in the early 90s, it would be way ahead of where it 
    is now.
    Craig”
     
    ==============
     
    Chris Parkinson wrote: 
    
    “Maybe because of the past spelling 
    problems with RLC, Mina. I think the structure  and idiom of RLC/spoken 
    Cornish should be fairly close to what Lhuyd and his contemporaries used and 
    described. But the spelling needs to be what everyone can use now so 
    learners can move on easily to read earlier Cornish texts and the whole body 
    of 20th century literature. 
    Chris”
     
    On 16 Efn 2010, at 13:06, 
    Kernuack at aol.com wrote:
    > Jan is totally right. I made this 
    same point when I sent in my  
    > submission to the Commission way 
    back. RLC supporters would have  
    > worked well with UCR - we always 
    maintained this. the stumbling  
    > block was always KK. My pupils have 
    always attained a good degree of  
    > spoken fluency after relatively few 
    lessons. Why would nobody  
    > listen? 
    Mina
     
    > From: janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk <janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk>
    > To: spellyans at kernowek.net
     
    > This is what we in the Cussel have 
    been saying until we are blue in  
    > the face. RLC should be taught first 
    as the colloquial/ 
    > conversational form of Cornish, with 
    simplified grammar and spelling  
    > (authentic, naturally), progressing 
    to the more literary forms of UC/ 
    > UCR when the children (and adults) 
    have become proficient in that.  
    > I'm sure there would be far fewer 
    drop-outs.
    > Jan
     
    > ----Original 
    Message----
    > From: 
    brynbow at btinternet.com
    > Date: 16/06/2010 
    9:09
    > Thanks for the comments, Ewan. 
    Literary Welsh indeed makes more use  
    > of inflected verbs, but not, I 
    think, to be particularly Latinate.  
    > All the Celtic languages were quite 
    highly inflected, just as was  
    > Latin.  And they have become 
    simplified in speech. (How did they get  
    > so highly inflected in the first 
    place?!)  Your description of the  
    > difficulties of learning the UC of 
    Nance makes the point. Nance's UC  
    > produced few really fluent speakers. 
    That is why Dick Gendall turned  
    > to Late Cornish which Jenner also 
    considered a legitimate part of  
    > the heritage. As I said before, KK 
    only tried to improve UC's  
    > orthography to make it easier to get 
    the pronunciation right. In  
    > this he was unsuccessful because few 
    follow all of his guidelines.  
    > What really concerns me is the 
    problem of what register should be  
    > used in primary schools because it 
    seems that this hasn't been  
    > discussed. Maybe the Partnership's 
    two new education officers are  
    > thinking about it. Literary Welsh is 
    not used in Welsh primary  
    > schools. It was realised in the 50's 
    and 60's that this didn't work  
    > and steps were successfully taken to 
    improve the situation.   
    > Successful learners, and of course 
    L1 speakers gradually come to  
    > more literary versions of the 
    language as they read more widely. So,  
    > to come back to 'Spellyans',  
    if  an officially acceptable   
    > orthography is not worked out for 
    all aspects of RLC then as Craig  
    > suggested, the SWF favoured by 
    mainly KK followers, and the formal  
    > language that goes with it, will 
    take precedence in 2013. How many  
    > fluent Cornish infants will come out 
    of that? Or am I overstating  
    > the case and being too negative? 
    What do other people on this list  
    > think? Michael, what do you 
    think?
    > Chris
     
    

    

    
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