[Spellyans] vocabulary

Ken MacKinnon ken at ferintosh.org
Mon Jun 28 11:46:59 IST 2010


Much obliged for all this information - Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] vocabulary


1:50,000 Sheet 203 (or 1:25,000 Explorer 7), "Land's End".  SW 390317
(Higher Bostraze); SW 386318 (Lower Bostraze);  Bog Inn at SW 392320.
I used to ride out of Higher Bostraze, then a livery stables when
Larnie was alive:  I now ride out of Lower Bostraze where the yard
containing Paddy, Shogun and the rest is situated.

There is also (same sheets) Bostrase (St Hilary), SW 573307.  This is
at the head of another flat-bottomed valley running N towards Tregembo
and Relubbus.

Craig


On 25 Efn 2010, at 07:32, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> Do we have a grid reference and OS sheet number for Bostrase?
>
> - Ken
>
> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>
> ken at ferintosh.org
> and also at:-
> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>
> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>
> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
> Scotland  UK
>
> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Weatherhill" 
> <craig at agantavas.org
> >
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] vocabulary
>
>
> Perhaps I should make my view plainer than I have.  I accept that
> Cornish contains loan words from all periods and several languages;
> however, I'd rather not see them as first options. I would far rather
> use (for, say, valley) nans, stras, tenow, etc., than valy.  In fact,
> until Nicholas pointed it out, I didn't even know that valy existed in
> Cornish texts with that meaning.  I'd only ever seen the word (a
> different word, of course) in the exclamation "Tety valy!".  Staying
> with 'valley', the genuine Cornish choices give a greater scope for
> accuracy:  nans "river valley";  stras "flat-bottomed valley"; tenow
> (tnow) "tributary valley", etc.
>
> (As an aside, the stable yard at Bostraze [bos + stras] is at the head
> of a generally narrow, steep-sided valley but, at this point, the
> valley head proper widens into a wide and very flat-bottomed bowl
> surrounded by hills - a remarkable feature of the landscape and a
> stunningly good example of a 'stras'.  A good map with contours shows
> it very clearly).
>
> The loan words, though, can often work this way, too.  For 'table' we
> have the choices of bord (more accurately a table-top, and, of course,
> a loan-word), moos and tabel (another loan-word attested in the place-
> name Table Maen and its various spellings - the stone still exists at
> Mayon, Sennen - named after it - and is the site of an Arthurian
> legend and a doomy prophecy of Merlin).
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 23 Efn 2010, at 07:51, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>> Comments inserted below…
>>
>> From: Ceri Young
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:48 AM
>>
>> Thanks Ewan,
>> (Sorry to Spellyans for deviating in this thread, it's still in  the 
>> vein of Craig's post.)
>> The thing is Ewan that the word 'great' even rehashed as 'grêt'   isn't 
>> Welsh. (You won't find it in a Welsh dictionary to attest  for  it being 
>> Welsh (the Welsh themselves to my knowledge have  never  chosen to 
>> include the word), yet you'll find it frequently  in Welsh  texts, 
>> novels, magazine articles and every other episode  of Pobol y  Cwm etc.). 
>> Yet if you asked someone who regularly used  it in their  colloquial 
>> Welsh if it was 'Welsh', I doubt they'd  even concede that  it was. They 
>> know what it is. It's English, and  it's in a  particularly English habit 
>> that they use it. Thankfully,  Welsh is  sufficiently understood and 
>> documented by Welsh speakers  to defend  itself against outsiders 
>> presuming that such a word is  deemed to be  Welsh by the Welsh 
>> themselves.
>>
>> Yet of course, if every Welsh speaker and dictionary vanished, and   just 
>> a handful of texts or records survived... Presumably alien 
>> intelligences might write the word 'grêt' into a Welsh dictionary, 
>> presuming the Welsh truly regarded that as a formal part of their 
>> language...
>>
>> I thought as much. Thanks for this little excursion into Welsh  Welsh 
>> life. I’ve always enjoyed watching Pobol y Cwm and other  Welsh TV  and 
>> film productions and have noticed the many  spontaneous  Anglicisms (“Mae 
>> pizza yn sort o ethnic!”).
>>
>> “A clear phenomenon exists where the Welsh will use English words,   even 
>> Cymricise English words in pronunciation and spelling in full   knowledge 
>> of what those words are with complete (yet tacit)   acknowledgement that 
>> those words are not Welsh. How then, do the   academics of the Cornish 
>> revival account for the possibility that   this pheonomenon existed in 
>> Cornish? Surely, the answer is that  they  can't. (You can't trust every 
>> English word depoyed in Welsh  to be a  wholly accepted and encorporated 
>> part of the Welsh  language - so why  would you ever do so in Late 
>> Cornish?)
>> Best wishes,
>> Ceri”
>>
>> Again you assume that it is only Late Cornish that incorporated   loans. 
>> As mentioned in my previous post, most English loan words  are  actually 
>> attested in Middle Cornish. I completely agree with  you  that the 
>> encroaching English language would have lead to a  large  portion of the 
>> Cornish speaking community to become  bilingual and  then code switching 
>> would have been quite normal. I  would regard  Tregear’s Cornish as a 
>> perfect example of this.  Because of the lack  of learned ecclesiastical 
>> vocabulary he used  the terms current in  English, also rhetorical 
>> devices and many of  these I would say are  spontaneous and it would be 
>> wise to look ate  them critically and  imitate him only where his wording 
>> can be  corroborated in other  texts. His grammar, however, is an 
>> essential  part of the Revival as  it is our only MC prose text. So, no, 
>> I  don’t think “academics”  would discard the possibility of code 
>> switching phenomena in bilingualCornwall.
>> Dan
>>
>> From: ewan wilson <butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com>
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>
>> Ceri,
>>
>> I can understand why some English 'loans' make the more literate/ 
>> articulate/purist Welsh cringe at times! I have native Welsh   speaking 
>> friends in Aber who deplore such usage as 'downright  lazy'  or 
>> 'perverse' when perfectly good Welsh equivalents exist.  However  others 
>> seem almost to glory in doing so and insist theu're  just as  'Welsh'!
>> If a word like 'gret' gets sucked into the language in particular 
>> contexts when does it become 'naturalised' and how do we decide  it's 
>> NOT part of the language when it's being used in front of us.
>> English as we all know is a real mongrel language with its rich 
>> Norman/Latin strand and surely that has enriched it. Cornish seems   to 
>> be nowhere near as 'penetrated' with borrowings but those it  does  have 
>> seem to have been absorbed into the very Celtic syntax  and even 
>> mutations system so that as you point out it'd be  practically 
>> impossible to spot in a fluent speaker's discourse.
>> The very small number of as good as 'native' Cornish speakers who   still 
>> use the tongue regularly must be a good pointer as to its   natural 
>> development, whether they be 'literate' speakers or not.  Can  one assume 
>> the former would have a larger lexical base for  pure  'Celtic' fluency 
>> without resort to plugging the gaps with   (inevitably English) 
>> borrowing?
>> That Cornish is good at coining new terms that seem to stick with 
>> greater facility I'd say than in Welsh where they can sound odd   ( 
>> pellgowser, pellwollok, golghva-kerry) also acts as a protection   from 
>> Anglo- infection!!
>>
>> Ewan.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ceri Young
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] vocabulary
>>
>> Although I have no qualifications to chip in, I agree with Craig   here 
>> (and having itched to comment earlier I'm very glad to read  his 
>> response). When I hear a comment like Nicholas' "My preference  is  for 
>> the language of the texts rather than for some  reCelticised  fantasy" I 
>> can't help being reminded that to some,  the whole Cornish  Revival is 
>> just one elaborate fantasy of  reCelticisation; of  salvaging lost 
>> Celticity from the desolation  of a tragic, sustained,  ethnocidal 
>> assault. It also then strikes  me that it's perfectly  natural to regard 
>> nurturing those late  Anglicisms is somewhat  contrary to the general 
>> ethos of such a  fantasy of reCelticisation.  Surely, just because a word 
>> is  borrowed, doesn't make it a formal  part of the language. Welsh 
>> speakers will routinely throw English  loanwords like the adj.  'grêt' 
>> (great) (although they'll be using it  as an interjection)  into their 
>> speech and even write it into  informal texts, but that  doesn't mean 
>> 'grêt' is a Welsh word to be  found in or even  inserted into a Welsh 
>> dictionary as a translation  of 'great'.
>>
>> Even if I totally understand the need for the strictest academic 
>> rectitude in the revival, I can also see why some might harbour an 
>> instinct to purge such late Anglicisms from their own useage of   Revived 
>> Cornish. It may not be remotely impartial or academic, but  I  can quite 
>> understand an uneasy attitude towards Anglicisms in  Celtic  languages in 
>> general, stemming from a sense of nationhood  being  established and 
>> complete from a given point that precludes  influence  from a resented 
>> imperial oppressor. (Perhaps as an  Englishman,  Nicholas simply doesn't 
>> see or feel this.) As a  Welshman, I see the  Welsh nation as one of 
>> Romano-British origins  (and would have  assumed the Cornish might be 
>> justified in thinking  similarly) and  so, as Ken George is accused of 
>> here, I can  understand a bias  towards Celtic & Latin words, and some 
>> unease  towards Anglicisms.
>>
>> Beyond that, if those Anglicisms entered into Cornish via  borrowing  and 
>> were legitimised by Cornish language users taking  them into  their 
>> linguistic currency, what would be so wrong with  Revived  Cornish 
>> speakers borrowing from Cornish's sister languages  (along  academic 
>> lines of their own) - and legitimising any  reCelticisation  of their 
>> language which they see fit? I guess that  simply can't  happen until the 
>> language is flying naturally of its  own accord, and  finally out of the 
>> hands of academics.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Ceri
>>
>>
>> From: Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>> To: spellyans at kernowek.net
>> Sent: Tue, 22 June, 2010 18:56:22
>> Subject: [Spellyans] vocabulary
>>
>> I'm concerned over one or two views that have been expressed re. 
>> vocabulary.  On one hand I'm hearing support for tota Cornicitas,   and 
>> on the other, I'm hearing that a word only attested in OCV and   not in 
>> the MC/Tudor texts shouldn't be used (stevel being an  example  that 
>> immediately springs to mind; use rom instead is the  advice).  I  don't 
>> agree with this.  Here's an example to  illustrate why I think  this way.
>>
>> Dyek (SWF: diek), 'lazy' occurs on OCV as 'dioc', and not in MC at   all. 
>> Until the 80s, when Dick Gendall was the first to look at  Late  Cornish 
>> in depth, it was being assumed that the word didn't  survive  into MC. 
>> In fact, it must have survived into Late Cornish  because  it turns up in 
>> dialect as 'jack'.  So, if the word made it  to Late  Cornish and 
>> dialect, it follows that it must have existed  in MC.  We  just don't 
>> have a text that features it and, let's face  it, we only  have a 
>> fraction of the texts that must once have  existed.   Attestation in MC 
>> texts supports the use of a word;  absence from  what survives of the MC 
>> texts is not a reason for  rejection.  It  only tells us that the word 
>> isn't found in those  few texts; not that  it didn't exist.
>>
>> For me, tota Cornicitas is essential.
>>
>> I'm afraid that some words being put forward will never find use   with 
>> me. I don't see the point of 'valy' for "valley", when so  many  Cornish 
>> words for different types of valley already exist.  Nor am I  minded to 
>> reject lyw/liw (or however we're spelling it)  in favour of  'color'.  I 
>> want to write Cornish.  I already know  English.
>> --
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net 





More information about the Spellyans mailing list