[Spellyans] Rules for the apostrophe
ken at ferintosh.org
Wed May 19 16:16:56 IST 2010
- and don't forget Gresham's Law.
- ken Ken
Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband with new e-mail addresses:-
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(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Rules for the apostrophe
> Point 3 is laughable. The KK brigade want to purge all English influence
> out of Cornish (name the minority language that hasn't been influenced by
> its majority neighbour), but Latin influence is OK.
> KS HAS my support - didn't I OK translation of 'The Lyonesse Stone' into
> it? And loved the result. As did others - on MOnday night, Mick Paynter
> asked if 'Seat of Storms' and 'The Tinners' way will be similarly
> translated because he's looking forward to that happening. I can't
> understand your attitude on this. Michael, you are going to have to
> learn to listen to all points of view, and consider why they may differ
> from yours. Don't just get the hump because our opinions might differ.
> You've sniped at Eddie's concerns, now you're sniping at mine. Why?
> Aren't we entitled to a point of view? If we aren't then there's not
> much point in continuing, is there? KS was supposed to be a TEAM effort
> and ownership.
> The bare fact is that SWF, flawed and unsatisfactory as it is, resulted
> from consensus. KS doesn't have that consensus, however much we might
> think it should. No, I don't have a crystal ball but I'm here, on the
> ground, seeing and hearing reactions/opinions, etc. at first hand. That
> is NOT a dig at where you happen to live, but here, it's all around me
> and, therefore, I think my opinion counts for something. In 2013, SWF
> will undergo corrections and revisions (probably not nearly enough). How
> much of that will be influenced by KS is as much your guess as ours.
> "This will not succeed" really isn't good enough. How do you know? Do
> you have the crystal ball that I haven't? You know as well as I do how
> well organised the opposition is and 1987 is a lesson we learn from. We
> can't just assume that because KS orthography is better, that it's going
> to replace all else. Pride comes before a fall, and we're going to have
> to come to terms with that basic truth. Otherwise we just fall into its
> Michael, please stop talking down to us: a) we don't like it; b) we
> have just as much to give from our own perspectives and fields of
> expertise as you do.
> Yes, you are doing your best - as are we all - but are you seeing the
> real picture? You know the difficulties I'm having on the Signage panel
> even to get traditional graph SWF a look in. Talk to Ray about his
> experiences on the Partnership. You need to know these things and the
> realities of what is happening on the ground.
> WE count for something, too.
> On 19 Me 2010, at 13:20, Michael Everson wrote:
>> On 18 May 2010, at 19:00, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>> I won't do any service by not voicing concerns, but the introduction of
>>> initial I for Y in some words makes me uncomfortable.
>> You need to understand why.
>> 1. Jenner used i and î and y and ŷ phonetically, and distributed them on
>> that basis.
>> 2. Nance ditched i entirely, whether to avoid having to deal with
>> working out a means to distribute i and y, or because he preferred the
>> more medieval look of y.
>> 3. George considered i and y to represent different phonemes in stressed
>> syllables, and distributed i and y elsewhere according to his
>> etymological theories (so we have kegin and molin because of Latin
>> cucina and molina, burdening the user with remembering his Latin to get
>> the spelling right.
>> 4. Williams re-introduced i in UCR in some Latin loanwords but there was
>> no real systematicness to it otherwise.
>> 5. KS1 and KD made some proposals.
>> 6. The SWF specifies the use of i and y in stressed monosyllables and
>> their derivatives (though it fails to distinguish short y and long ÿ in
>> stressed monosyllables). It specifies that -i or -ei be used in
>> monosyllables, and permits either -i or -y in polysyllables. It gives no
>> other guidance to the user as to how to choose i or y in any other
>> 7. KS is the only orthography that offers clear rules for the
>> distribution of i and y. These are:
>> 7a. Use i- in initial position in all but 6 words.
>> 7b. Use i for [iː] and y for [ɪ] in monosyllables and their derivatives.
>> 7c. Use î for [iː] and y for [ɪ] in non-initial and non-final position
>> in other polysyllables.
>> 7d. Use -y in final position.
>> Those rules are pretty simple. No other orthography but Jenner's have
>> rules at all for distributing i and y (Nance's omitting i entirely
>> doesn't count, an in any case is incompatible with the use of i and y in
>> the SWF.)
>> One of the reasons we chose 7a is the dislike many RLC users have for
>> the perceived "medievalness" of the letter y. Since RLC users get very
>> little graphic familiarity in the SWF it seemed an appropriate
>> concession to make.
>>> KS1 had to be adjusted to cope with the limitations placed on it by the
>>> SWF, but I feel that we've gone too far.
>> "Too far"? What is not too far? If you do not like i- your choice is y-.
>> Is that "better"? Initial i- is very well attested in the corpus.
>> There's nothing inauthentic about it. If you're not used to it, it's
>> only because Nance didn't use the letter i at all.
>> You ought to be a bit used to it by now; after all these rules are
>> implemented in Jowal Lethesow. They are good, simple, robust rules,
>> easily taught, and easily learnt. Once you learn them, you know how to
>>> Overall, KS is fine BUT we mustn't kid ourselves that it will replace
>>> the SWF in 3 years time. It won't. It can't.
>> You've got a crystal ball, have you? You know who will be invited to the
>> 2013 conference? You know who will attend? Who will refuse to attend?
>> Who will be refused permission to attend?
>> I don't know these things. What I do know is that there are linguistic
>> flaws in the SWF which make it insupportable for academic approval and
>> unsuitable for publishing literature. I also know that those flaws are
>> easily corrected. We have corrected them.
>>> There is far too much opposition out there for that ever to happen and,
>>> if we don't start publishing in SWF/T as well, the move will be to
>>> dismiss it because no one is visibly using it.
>> I for my part am not afraid of the Kesva. They aren't producing
>> anything, in SWF/M or even in KK for that matter.
>> THe 220,000 words we have published since January 2009 are all using /T
>> forms, not /K forms. Our orthography is not UC or UCR or RLC or KK. It
>> is a direct response to the SWF/T which was supposedly created to
>> support our aesthetic. It forces us to use inauthentic graphs, however,
>> so it fails there. But the fact that we are using / T forms and not /K
>> forms cannot be denied.
>>> This will then open the door for the return of KK to "correct" SWF/M.
>> This will not succeed.
>> Please recall that Nicholas and I co-edited SWF/T and SWF/M editions of
>> Skeul an Tavas.
>>> I'm having enough problems with the pressure to use SWF/M graphs in
>>> place-names, and the apparent desire to sideline SWF/T as far as
>>> they're able.
>> Well, for my part I am publishing with Traditional graphs and not with
>> Kebmyn graphs.
>>> We fell for this sort of thing 25 years ago and we'd all be bloody
>>> fools not to be aware of intentions now, and do what is necessary to
>>> thwart them. Publishing in KS alone won't do this.
>> Evertype publications are funded by Evertype. If the SWF/T isn't
>> accurate and contains the faults which it does, why should I spend money
>> to publish in it? The Kesva hasn't been publishing much of anything in
>> SWF/K. Hardly anything of any quality has been published in SWF of any
>> kind, in fact. A story about a starfish? A puppy? A reprint of some
>> songbook? A colouring book?
>> It's a far cry from a quarter of a million words, don't you think?
>>> KS will most certainly inform the corrections to be undertaken in 2013,
>>> and I feel that this aim is what we should be concentrating on.
>> There is no 2013 mechanism defined. The arguments about what corrections
>> But you know what, Craig? One of the things that the Spellyans effort
>> could use is support. Is it a good orthography? Use it. Is it a better
>> orthography than the SWF? Use it.
>> I know: only Skeul an Tavas (KS) is out so far. Eddie is impatient about
>> it, but we are being careful, trying to work out what needs to be done
>> to edge cases. Most of those are polysyllabic loanwords with long vowels
>> in unexpected positions. Nicholas and I, and some other linguistically
>> astute external readers, are working to make sure that what we put
>> forward is accurate, traditional, and useful.
>> But when it does come out, people will have to decide whether to support
>> it or not. Right now, the Revival is not really going anywhere. One of
>> my correspondants wrote recently:
>>> "Authority" is the word. The whole project is about control and
>>> administrative process at the expense of participation, collective
>>> ownership and good Cornish. The Cornish revival has not just stalled,
>>> it has gone into reverse. Authority began with Nance, leading to the
>>> imposed "authority" of the editor of An Gannas and of the Kesvapo in
>>> the 80s, followed by MAGA.
>> From the perspective of KS, all we as linguists can do is our best. To
>> do less than our best would be to insult the language. We'll put it out
>> there. If people say "Holy heck, this is a great orthography!" then they
>> should use it. If people want linguistically weak Council Cornish, then
>> the current SWF is probably suitable. I can't make that choice for any
>> of you, teachers or learners. All I can do is my best.
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> Craig Weatherhill
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
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