[Spellyans] th/dh

Craig Weatherhill craig at agantavas.org
Mon Nov 22 10:21:30 GMT 2010


Morton Nance's note re. numerals gleaned from Mr Snell of Newlyn  
contains an interesting, and possibly helpful, distribution of -dh-  
and -th-.

Craig


On 22 Du 2010, at 10:16, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> If it helps:  from "More Traditional Cornish Numerals" (W.D.Watson,  
> JRIC 1926):
>
> Albert Harvey, Paul, 1925:  "On, dew, tree, pajee, pemp, weth, seth,  
> eeth, naw, dayg, eegnak, dawthack, tawthack, biswarthak, pempthak,  
> wethack, sethak, eethak, nawnjack, eegans".
>
> William Harvey, Four Lanes, Redruth (formerly of Paul and brother to  
> the above) 1925/26: "On, dew, tree, pajee, pemp, weeth, sayth, ayth,  
> now, dayg, ednak, dowak, treethak, pesworthak, pempthak, wethak,  
> seethak, eethak, nownjack, eegans".
>
> John George: Predannack, Mullion, 1925/26:  "Eena, dewa, treea,  
> paja, pemp, with,......pagwotha..."  (Mr George's memory was  
> somewhat defective, but knew words like:  dour, venton, uggo, pedn,  
> tol, carrack, men").
>
> William Cock, Gweek (d.1883) via G.S. Bray, Lanner:  "wunnen, du,  
> dree, pedge, pmp, wayth, set, ayth, nohnen, dekka".
>
> Betsy Matthews, Paul (d.1887), via her son, Edward Matthews:  
> (fragmentary), "...nohat, dayg....pednack wetnack, setnack, etnak,  
> nownjak, niggans".
>
> Ditto, via her second son, Robert Matthews:  "In, dew, thrigh,  
> pajee, pemp, wee, sigh, serth, nohek, deeg, eegnak,  
> dowthack......pendhak, wettick, sightek, ightek, nownjak, niggans".
>
>
> My copy of this offprint  (the cover of which bears the handwritten  
> initials: W.D.W) ends with a handwritten note by Robert Morton  
> Nance, as follows:
>
> 'Extract from "Old Cornwall" No.12, Winter 1930, Traditional Cornish  
> Numerals.
> Mr W.D. Watson has lately got the following score from Mr W.H.  
> Snell, of Newlyn:  taught to him by his grandmother, Mrs Phillippa  
> Francis, nee Batten, of Paul, dies c. 1870-5:
> "Un, doo, tray, paja, pemp, weeth, seeth, neeth, noo, dagg, ignet,  
> dawthak, tardhak, beswardhak, penthek, weethek, signyak, aytek,  
> nineyak, iggins".
>
> Thos shows the same tendency to degenerate into assonance and rhyme  
> that has already been noted in similar survivals (see JRIC No. 71, p. 
> 300; No. 73, p.113 where 13 different traditions are recorded by Mr  
> Watson and myself).  Dr E.A. Bullmore was taught by his great-uncle  
> Mr Henry Trevascus b. St Erth 1800, to say:
> "oon, dew, tray, padgery, pemp, whay, sayth, ayth, now,  
> dayg.....iganz....kans", not completing the score but adding 100.
>
> Mr W. Pezzack of Newlyn learned the whole score as a boy of which he  
> remembers:  "unn, dew, tray, pajer, pemp.....dowthack, biswawthack,  
> pempthack".
> R.M.N.'
>
> The final page of the offprint has a pencil written note:
> '8 versions R.M.N.
> 7 versions W.D.W.'
> which I assume to be a tally of how many versions of the numerals  
> had been collected by each man.
>
> Hope that's helpful,
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 22 Du 2010, at 09:38, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Please elaborate. Examples by native speakers? Transcribed when? By  
>> whom?
>>
>> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net 
>> ] On Behalf Of nicholas williams
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:25 AM
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] th/dh
>>
>> How then do you explain the examples from Mount's Bay with th? The  
>> informants had heard their forms from native speakers. Native  
>> speakers trump phonetic representations by non-natives, I believe.
>>
>> On 2010 Du 22, at 09:18, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>
>> It looks as if Breton and, quite possibly, Cornish gave a different  
>> treatment to the word for “fifteen” from Welsh. Lhuyd’s pemdhak may  
>> well have been correct.
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
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--
Craig Weatherhill





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