s.hewitt at unesco.org
Mon Nov 22 10:37:31 GMT 2010
Yes it does help, very much, and it looks rather as if <th> is being used as much for /ð/ as for /θ/, the same confusion that is apparent throughout the traditional corpus. The real question is, apart from words with internal provection, such as cotha, undoubtedly voiceless [koθə], whether there really was a phonemic distinction between inherited /ð/ and /θ/. The widespread use of <th>, <ʒ> for both surely suggests that they may have fallen together as voiced [ð] internally (on the analogy of <-s-> [z]; <-f-> [v]); the precise details of final treatment between stressed and unstressed final syllables to be worked out, quite possibly [ˈ-ð / ˈ--θ] for both inherited /ð/ and /θ/.
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:16 AM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] th/dh
If it helps: from "More Traditional Cornish Numerals" (W.D.Watson,
Albert Harvey, Paul, 1925: "On, dew, tree, pajee, pemp, weth, seth,
eeth, naw, dayg, eegnak, dawthack, tawthack, biswarthak, pempthak,
wethack, sethak, eethak, nawnjack, eegans".
William Harvey, Four Lanes, Redruth (formerly of Paul and brother to
the above) 1925/26: "On, dew, tree, pajee, pemp, weeth, sayth, ayth,
now, dayg, ednak, dowak, treethak, pesworthak, pempthak, wethak,
seethak, eethak, nownjack, eegans".
John George: Predannack, Mullion, 1925/26: "Eena, dewa, treea, paja,
pemp, with,......pagwotha..." (Mr George's memory was somewhat
defective, but knew words like: dour, venton, uggo, pedn, tol,
William Cock, Gweek (d.1883) via G.S. Bray, Lanner: "wunnen, du,
dree, pedge, pmp, wayth, set, ayth, nohnen, dekka".
Betsy Matthews, Paul (d.1887), via her son, Edward Matthews:
(fragmentary), "...nohat, dayg....pednack wetnack, setnack, etnak,
Ditto, via her second son, Robert Matthews: "In, dew, thrigh, pajee,
pemp, wee, sigh, serth, nohek, deeg, eegnak, dowthack......pendhak,
wettick, sightek, ightek, nownjak, niggans".
My copy of this offprint (the cover of which bears the handwritten
initials: W.D.W) ends with a handwritten note by Robert Morton Nance,
'Extract from "Old Cornwall" No.12, Winter 1930, Traditional Cornish
Mr W.D. Watson has lately got the following score from Mr W.H. Snell,
of Newlyn: taught to him by his grandmother, Mrs Phillippa Francis,
nee Batten, of Paul, dies c. 1870-5:
"Un, doo, tray, paja, pemp, weeth, seeth, neeth, noo, dagg, ignet,
dawthak, tardhak, beswardhak, penthek, weethek, signyak, aytek,
Thos shows the same tendency to degenerate into assonance and rhyme
that has already been noted in similar survivals (see JRIC No. 71, p.
300; No. 73, p.113 where 13 different traditions are recorded by Mr
Watson and myself). Dr E.A. Bullmore was taught by his great-uncle Mr
Henry Trevascus b. St Erth 1800, to say:
"oon, dew, tray, padgery, pemp, whay, sayth, ayth, now,
dayg.....iganz....kans", not completing the score but adding 100.
Mr W. Pezzack of Newlyn learned the whole score as a boy of which he
remembers: "unn, dew, tray, pajer, pemp.....dowthack, biswawthack,
The final page of the offprint has a pencil written note:
'8 versions R.M.N.
7 versions W.D.W.'
which I assume to be a tally of how many versions of the numerals had
been collected by each man.
Hope that's helpful,
On 22 Du 2010, at 09:38, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:
> Please elaborate. Examples by native speakers? Transcribed when? By
> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net
> ] On Behalf Of nicholas williams
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:25 AM
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] th/dh
> How then do you explain the examples from Mount's Bay with th? The
> informants had heard their forms from native speakers. Native
> speakers trump phonetic representations by non-natives, I believe.
> On 2010 Du 22, at 09:18, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:
> It looks as if Breton and, quite possibly, Cornish gave a different
> treatment to the word for “fifteen” from Welsh. Lhuyd’s pemdhak may
> well have been correct.
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