[Spellyans] th/dh

Hewitt, Stephen s.hewitt at unesco.org
Mon Nov 22 10:37:31 GMT 2010


Yes it does help, very much, and it looks rather as if <th> is being used as much for /ð/ as for /θ/, the same confusion that is apparent throughout the traditional corpus. The real question is, apart from words with internal provection, such as cotha, undoubtedly voiceless [koθə], whether there really was a phonemic distinction between inherited /ð/ and /θ/. The widespread use of <th>, <ʒ> for both surely suggests that they may have fallen together as voiced [ð] internally (on the analogy of <-s-> [z]; <-f-> [v]); the precise details of final treatment between stressed and unstressed final syllables to be worked out, quite possibly [ˈ-ð / ˈ--θ] for both inherited /ð/ and /θ/.

 

Steve Hewitt

 

-----Original Message-----
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:16 AM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] th/dh

 

If it helps:  from "More Traditional Cornish Numerals" (W.D.Watson,  

JRIC 1926):

 

Albert Harvey, Paul, 1925:  "On, dew, tree, pajee, pemp, weth, seth,  

eeth, naw, dayg, eegnak, dawthack, tawthack, biswarthak, pempthak,  

wethack, sethak, eethak, nawnjack, eegans".

 

William Harvey, Four Lanes, Redruth (formerly of Paul and brother to  

the above) 1925/26: "On, dew, tree, pajee, pemp, weeth, sayth, ayth,  

now, dayg, ednak, dowak, treethak, pesworthak, pempthak, wethak,  

seethak, eethak, nownjack, eegans".

 

John George: Predannack, Mullion, 1925/26:  "Eena, dewa, treea, paja,  

pemp, with,......pagwotha..."  (Mr George's memory was somewhat  

defective, but knew words like:  dour, venton, uggo, pedn, tol,  

carrack, men").

 

William Cock, Gweek (d.1883) via G.S. Bray, Lanner:  "wunnen, du,  

dree, pedge, pmp, wayth, set, ayth, nohnen, dekka".

 

Betsy Matthews, Paul (d.1887), via her son, Edward Matthews:  

(fragmentary), "...nohat, dayg....pednack wetnack, setnack, etnak,  

nownjak, niggans".

 

Ditto, via her second son, Robert Matthews:  "In, dew, thrigh, pajee,  

pemp, wee, sigh, serth, nohek, deeg, eegnak, dowthack......pendhak,  

wettick, sightek, ightek, nownjak, niggans".

 

 

My copy of this offprint  (the cover of which bears the handwritten  

initials: W.D.W) ends with a handwritten note by Robert Morton Nance,  

as follows:

 

'Extract from "Old Cornwall" No.12, Winter 1930, Traditional Cornish  

Numerals.

Mr W.D. Watson has lately got the following score from Mr W.H. Snell,  

of Newlyn:  taught to him by his grandmother, Mrs Phillippa Francis,  

nee Batten, of Paul, dies c. 1870-5:

"Un, doo, tray, paja, pemp, weeth, seeth, neeth, noo, dagg, ignet,  

dawthak, tardhak, beswardhak, penthek, weethek, signyak, aytek,  

nineyak, iggins".

 

Thos shows the same tendency to degenerate into assonance and rhyme  

that has already been noted in similar survivals (see JRIC No. 71, p. 

300; No. 73, p.113 where 13 different traditions are recorded by Mr  

Watson and myself).  Dr E.A. Bullmore was taught by his great-uncle Mr  

Henry Trevascus b. St Erth 1800, to say:

"oon, dew, tray, padgery, pemp, whay, sayth, ayth, now,  

dayg.....iganz....kans", not completing the score but adding 100.

 

Mr W. Pezzack of Newlyn learned the whole score as a boy of which he  

remembers:  "unn, dew, tray, pajer, pemp.....dowthack, biswawthack,  

pempthack".

R.M.N.'

 

The final page of the offprint has a pencil written note:

'8 versions R.M.N.

7 versions W.D.W.'

which I assume to be a tally of how many versions of the numerals had  

been collected by each man.

 

Hope that's helpful,

Craig

 

 

 

On 22 Du 2010, at 09:38, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:

 

> Please elaborate. Examples by native speakers? Transcribed when? By  

> whom?

> 

> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net 

> ] On Behalf Of nicholas williams

> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:25 AM

> To: Standard Cornish discussion list

> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] th/dh

> 

> How then do you explain the examples from Mount's Bay with th? The  

> informants had heard their forms from native speakers. Native  

> speakers trump phonetic representations by non-natives, I believe.

> 

> On 2010 Du 22, at 09:18, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:

> 

> 

> It looks as if Breton and, quite possibly, Cornish gave a different  

> treatment to the word for “fifteen” from Welsh. Lhuyd’s pemdhak may  

> well have been correct.

> 

> 

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--

Craig Weatherhill

 

 

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