[Spellyans] dictionnaire de l'Académie française
Craig Weatherhill
craig at agantavas.org
Mon Jan 31 13:26:28 GMT 2011
Jed - have you considered joining Agan Tavas? We'd be glad to have you.
Craig
On 30 Gen 2011, at 21:38, Jed Matthews wrote:
> May I wade in?
>
> I can't speak for all Cornish speakers, I can only speak for my own
> experiences. The fact that this discussion is even being had would
> suggest that there is no consensus on the issue of diacritics.
>
> Whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means
> 'until', I say [bɪz], and whenever I see 'bys' used in a context
> where it clearly means 'world', I say [biːz]. I can't give examples
> of other bys/bes type words because I haven't looked into it very
> much. But I'm sure there would be other times where (for me) context
> would suffice.
>
> The point has been made that some KK users pronounce bys and pryv
> incorrectly. I do not believe this is a problem directly caused by
> the orthography (although it is true it does not help) but by poor
> teaching. A learner only has to be told once that until is [bɪz] and
> world is [biːz]. It is not true that this can only work with oral
> teaching, I have not been to a single class and have learnt Cornish
> solely through books and yet I know the difference because the books
> I've read taught it.
>
> Also, the point's been made that in languages like French and
> Spanish spelling words without the diacritics would be spelling them
> wrong. This is indeed correct, but I don't believe this argument is
> relevant to Cornish. Cornish doesn't have one orthography, like
> those languages, it has many, and so I think it would be impossible
> to claim that spelling a word without diacritics is wrong when there
> are so many other orthographies that don't use diacritics. It could
> be the case that in 100 years time, the idea of spelling Cornish
> without diacritics is as strange as spelling French without them.
> However we are not at that point now. Today there are generations of
> Cornish speakers who are used to spelling without diacritics and it
> might be rather idealistic to expect them all to suddenly start
> using them after a directive from above says they should.
>
> Nevertheless, in my opinion, all this discussion is (if you forgive
> the bluntness) kind of pointless anyway. The SWF in 2013 will be a
> political compromise, there's no denying it. We can ignore that fact
> for as long we like but it will be a fact nonetheless. We need to be
> focusing on how to make the SWF better in a way that could be
> acceptable to a majority of Cornish users. If it's obvious that KS's
> current range of diacritics will not find favour with that majority
> then we should not be stubbornly continuing the matter. I've got the
> impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that a very limited use of
> diacritics, for things like anomalous vowel length, might find a
> majority favour. As for y/e, I don't like the umlaut and don't think
> it fits in well with the overall 'look' of Cornish. I also don't see
> it gaining widespread favour. I have always preferred <ei> anyway
> and would like to see this at least mentioned in 2013 to see if
> opinion has shifted. If not, then I don't see the y/e distinction
> going away and we shouldn't spend time trying to fix things that
> can't be fixed in a manner acceptable to a majority.
>
> This discussion is part of a larger choice that needs to be made.
> Either you can focus on proposing fixes to the SWF, which means
> finding solutions that will be acceptable to a majority of users, or
> you can ditch the SWF, tread your own path, and go back to KS1. If
> the SWF is ditched, would this send us all back to the pre-SWF days?
> Would traditional forms end up being cut off from the arena that
> matters most - schools? Would KS end up being sidelined? Or would
> there be a surge of support for KS1, meaning that it might stand a
> chance at becoming a future SWF? Who knows. The options need to be
> weighed up. The current KS it seems, in my opinion, is too far from
> the SWF to be accepted by a majority, but not close enough to your
> ideal of a KS1-type orthography. What shouldn't happen, not at all,
> is that the traditionalist lobby becomes fractured.
>
> Jed Matthews a.k.a. Truru/Carrek
>
> 2011/1/30 Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
> I doubt MAGA's intentions, to be honest. They've totally sidelined
> trad. graphs thus far and I think they're guiding the SWF towards
> the return of KK in 2013. I'd like to be proven wrong on that and,
> just maybe, Tuesday's meeting between Agan Tavas and MAGA might put
> things back on track. I don't hold out hopes, though. MAGA's
> accusation, that AT was not constructively contributing to the SWF
> was a disgrace. We've published much SWF material as the rest of
> 'em put together! If it goes badly, and we have to walk out, then I
> will be walking further. Right away from the language altogether.
> I've become sick and tired of battlefields.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
> On 30 Gen 2011, at 20:23, Eddie Climo wrote:
>
> Truru whek,
> What you say makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> Like it or lump it, for all its many flaws the SWF is here, and
> probably here to stay.
>
> The worst outcome of 2013 that I can see would be the Trad forms of
> the SWF being discarded or further sidelined, and the non-Trad
> KKised form taking over.
>
> The outcome might become more likely to happen if:
>
> — the version of KS on offer is not acceptable to enough of the
> Cornish-speaking community.
> That's why this thread is happening, in the hope of resolving
> this problem.
>
> — no-one is teaching SWF-T
> There are some teachers in Cornwall using it.
>
> — nobody is publishing in SWF-T
> Agan Tavas and Evertype have done so. GanO are part-way
> through publishing a series of readers in SWF-T, as well as some
> other titles.
>
> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
> Gwask an Orlewen
> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
> Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem
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> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
>
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Craig Weatherhill
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