[Spellyans] A 'Censored Message'? Can this be?

Mon Jan 31 18:41:27 GMT 2011

Sorry everyone, it seems the problem was with my email system. The messages
didn't show up at my end. Sorry for the double post, and sorry again to
Michael.

Jed

On 31 January 2011 18:34, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> wrote:

> I'd hate to imagine what your mental picture of me might be!
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 31 Gen 2011, at 18:27, Janice Lobb wrote:
>
> I have two lengthy archived posts (saying the same thing?) - one from Truru
>> Truru and the other from Jed Mathews a.k.a. Truru/Carrek. I don't know the
>> gentleman in question, but I do prefer to deal with real names if I'm to
>> take people seriously. Ideally I like to have a mental picture of the
>> writer!
>> Jan
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>> wrote:
>> It's still on my post list.  Maybe he forgot that he posted it as Truru,
>> not Carrek.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31 Gen 2011, at 17:56, Eddie Climo wrote:
>>
>> Truru (a pseudonym) claims on C24 that our esteemed Moderator, Michael
>> (not a pseudonym), has censored  this post of his to Spellyans. Can this be
>> true? As far as I know, I received a copy of it with the rest of the
>> postings on this list.
>>
>> Perhaps Michael would care to comment.
>>
>> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
>> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
>> Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
>> Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Truru Truru <ebost.truru at googlemail.com>
>> Date: 2011 Mys Genver 30 18:42:44 GMT+00:00
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] dictionnaire de l'Académie française
>> Reply-To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>
>> May I wade in?
>>
>> I can't speak for all Cornish speakers, I can only speak for my own
>> experiences. The fact that this discussion is even being had would suggest
>> that there is no consensus on the issue of diacritics.
>>
>> Whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means 'until', I
>> say [bɪz], and whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means
>> 'world', I say [biːz]. I can't give examples of other bys/bes type words
>> because I haven't looked into it very much. But I'm sure there would be
>> other times where (for me) context would suffice.
>>
>> The point has been made that some KK users pronounce bys and pryv
>> incorrectly. I do not believe this is a problem directly caused by the
>> orthography (although it is true it does not help) but by poor teaching. A
>> learner only has to be told once that until is [bɪz] and world is [biːz]. It
>> is not true that this can only work with oral teaching, I have not been to a
>> single class and have learnt Cornish solely through books and yet I know the
>> difference because the books I've read taught it.
>>
>> Also, the point's been made that in languages like French and Spanish
>> spelling words without the diacritics would be spelling them wrong. This is
>> indeed correct, but I don't believe this argument is relevant to Cornish.
>> Cornish doesn't have one orthography, like those languages, it has many, and
>> so I think it would be impossible to claim that spelling a word without
>> diacritics is wrong when there are so many other orthographies that don't
>> use diacritics. It could be the case that in 100 years time, the idea of
>> spelling Cornish without diacritics is as strange as spelling French without
>> them. However we are not at that point now. Today there are generations of
>> Cornish speakers who are used to spelling without diacritics and it might be
>> rather idealistic to expect them all to suddenly start using them after a
>> directive from above says they should.
>>
>> Nevertheless, in my opinion, all this discussion is (if you forgive the
>> bluntness) kind of pointless anyway. The SWF in 2013 will be a political
>> compromise, there's no denying it. We can ignore that fact for as long we
>> like but it will be a fact nonetheless. We need to be focusing on how to
>> make the SWF better in a way that could be acceptable to a majority of
>> Cornish users. If it's obvious that KS's current range of diacritics will
>> not find favour with that majority then we should not be stubbornly
>> continuing the matter. I've got the impression (correct me if I'm wrong)
>> that a very limited use of diacritics, for things like anomalous vowel
>> length, might find a majority favour. As for y/e, I don't like the umlaut
>> and don't think it fits in well with the overall 'look' of Cornish. I also
>> don't see it gaining widespread favour. I have always preferred <ei> anyway
>> and would like to see this at least mentioned in 2013 to see if opinion has
>> shifted. If not, then I don't see the y/e distinction going away and we
>> shouldn't spend time trying to fix things that can't be fixed in a manner
>> acceptable to a majority.
>>
>> This discussion is part of a larger choice that needs to be made. Either
>> you can focus on proposing fixes to the SWF, which means finding solutions
>> that will be acceptable to a majority of users, or you can ditch the SWF,
>> tread your own path, and go back to KS1. If the SWF is ditched, would this
>> send us all back to the pre-SWF days? Would traditional forms end up being
>> cut off from the arena that matters most - schools? Would KS end up being
>> sidelined? Or would there be a surge of support for KS1, meaning that it
>> might stand a chance at becoming a future SWF? Who knows. The options need
>> to be weighed up. The current KS it seems, in my opinion, is too far from
>> the SWF to be accepted by a majority, but not close enough to your ideal of
>> a KS1-type orthography. What shouldn't happen, not at all, is that the
>> traditionalist lobby becomes fractured.
>>
>> Carrek
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/1/30 Eddie Climo <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
>> On 2011 Gen 30, at 17:14, nicholas williams wrote:
>> Whatever orthography one uses one's first concern should perhaps be that
>> the Cornish is accurate.
>> Certainly we always ensure as far as possible that our published Cornish
>> is correct.
>>
>> Eddie himself is not without fault here. Let me cite some examples at
>> random from Whedhlow Dama Goodh FSS/T-C:
>>
>> Oh, dear, are we now to descend to playground jibes? Am I to emulate your
>> behaviour and scour your published works to hunt for errors to fling in your
>> face, Nicholas? Am I to unearth and repeat some of the incorrect assertions
>> you made to me in private as you proofread my 'Kensa Lyver Redya'?
>>
>> No, I think not; such conduct is not attractive.
>>
>> It is gratifying that we have an emerging consensus on this thread about
>> the role diacritics should have in KS, one that diverges from your views.
>>
>> Nicholas and Michael are, of course, quite free to publish works in
>> whatever orthography they choose, and to encumber them with as many
>> diacritics as they please. In the same way, they're at liberty to lard their
>> Cornish with as many macaronic Tregearisms as they fancy, no matter how
>> 'Kernglish' the result might look.
>>
>> However, they are NOT free to do the same with the formal specification of
>> KS that will be submitted to the CLP in due course. That must reflect the
>> consensus of this group, at least it must do so if it is to have my name and
>> my support behind it.
>>
>> Let us hope that the final KS specification is indeed written in the light
>> of this apparent consensus, and is not 'too much encumbered with [mandatory]
>> diaritical signs'.
>>
>> Eddie Climo
>>
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>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
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