[Spellyans] A 'Censored Message'? Can this be?
Craig Weatherhill
craig at agantavas.org
Mon Jan 31 18:58:04 GMT 2011
Ah. but that's not the same as a mental picture. My mental pic of
Michael is the Emperor Hadrian (only because his statue is the image
of Michael, I hasten to add. Ahem.)
Craig
On 31 Gen 2011, at 18:43, Janice Lobb wrote:
> I've met you, so I know what you look like!
> Jan
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org
> > wrote:
> I'd hate to imagine what your mental picture of me might be!
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 31 Gen 2011, at 18:27, Janice Lobb wrote:
>
> I have two lengthy archived posts (saying the same thing?) - one
> from Truru Truru and the other from Jed Mathews a.k.a. Truru/Carrek.
> I don't know the gentleman in question, but I do prefer to deal with
> real names if I'm to take people seriously. Ideally I like to have a
> mental picture of the writer!
> Jan
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org
> > wrote:
> It's still on my post list. Maybe he forgot that he posted it as
> Truru, not Carrek.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
> On 31 Gen 2011, at 17:56, Eddie Climo wrote:
>
> Truru (a pseudonym) claims on C24 that our esteemed Moderator,
> Michael (not a pseudonym), has censored this post of his to
> Spellyans. Can this be true? As far as I know, I received a copy of
> it with the rest of the postings on this list.
>
> Perhaps Michael would care to comment.
>
> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
> Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Truru Truru <ebost.truru at googlemail.com>
> Date: 2011 Mys Genver 30 18:42:44 GMT+00:00
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] dictionnaire de l'Académie française
> Reply-To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>
> May I wade in?
>
> I can't speak for all Cornish speakers, I can only speak for my own
> experiences. The fact that this discussion is even being had would
> suggest that there is no consensus on the issue of diacritics.
>
> Whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means
> 'until', I say [bɪz], and whenever I see 'bys' used in a context
> where it clearly means 'world', I say [biːz]. I can't give examples
> of other bys/bes type words because I haven't looked into it very
> much. But I'm sure there would be other times where (for me) context
> would suffice.
>
> The point has been made that some KK users pronounce bys and pryv
> incorrectly. I do not believe this is a problem directly caused by
> the orthography (although it is true it does not help) but by poor
> teaching. A learner only has to be told once that until is [bɪz] and
> world is [biːz]. It is not true that this can only work with oral
> teaching, I have not been to a single class and have learnt Cornish
> solely through books and yet I know the difference because the books
> I've read taught it.
>
> Also, the point's been made that in languages like French and
> Spanish spelling words without the diacritics would be spelling them
> wrong. This is indeed correct, but I don't believe this argument is
> relevant to Cornish. Cornish doesn't have one orthography, like
> those languages, it has many, and so I think it would be impossible
> to claim that spelling a word without diacritics is wrong when there
> are so many other orthographies that don't use diacritics. It could
> be the case that in 100 years time, the idea of spelling Cornish
> without diacritics is as strange as spelling French without them.
> However we are not at that point now. Today there are generations of
> Cornish speakers who are used to spelling without diacritics and it
> might be rather idealistic to expect them all to suddenly start
> using them after a directive from above says they should.
>
> Nevertheless, in my opinion, all this discussion is (if you forgive
> the bluntness) kind of pointless anyway. The SWF in 2013 will be a
> political compromise, there's no denying it. We can ignore that fact
> for as long we like but it will be a fact nonetheless. We need to be
> focusing on how to make the SWF better in a way that could be
> acceptable to a majority of Cornish users. If it's obvious that KS's
> current range of diacritics will not find favour with that majority
> then we should not be stubbornly continuing the matter. I've got the
> impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that a very limited use of
> diacritics, for things like anomalous vowel length, might find a
> majority favour. As for y/e, I don't like the umlaut and don't think
> it fits in well with the overall 'look' of Cornish. I also don't see
> it gaining widespread favour. I have always preferred <ei> anyway
> and would like to see this at least mentioned in 2013 to see if
> opinion has shifted. If not, then I don't see the y/e distinction
> going away and we shouldn't spend time trying to fix things that
> can't be fixed in a manner acceptable to a majority.
>
> This discussion is part of a larger choice that needs to be made.
> Either you can focus on proposing fixes to the SWF, which means
> finding solutions that will be acceptable to a majority of users, or
> you can ditch the SWF, tread your own path, and go back to KS1. If
> the SWF is ditched, would this send us all back to the pre-SWF days?
> Would traditional forms end up being cut off from the arena that
> matters most - schools? Would KS end up being sidelined? Or would
> there be a surge of support for KS1, meaning that it might stand a
> chance at becoming a future SWF? Who knows. The options need to be
> weighed up. The current KS it seems, in my opinion, is too far from
> the SWF to be accepted by a majority, but not close enough to your
> ideal of a KS1-type orthography. What shouldn't happen, not at all,
> is that the traditionalist lobby becomes fractured.
>
> Carrek
>
>
>
>
>
> 2011/1/30 Eddie Climo <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
> On 2011 Gen 30, at 17:14, nicholas williams wrote:
> Whatever orthography one uses one's first concern should perhaps be
> that the Cornish is accurate.
> Certainly we always ensure as far as possible that our published
> Cornish is correct.
>
> Eddie himself is not without fault here. Let me cite some examples
> at random from Whedhlow Dama Goodh FSS/T-C:
>
> Oh, dear, are we now to descend to playground jibes? Am I to emulate
> your behaviour and scour your published works to hunt for errors to
> fling in your face, Nicholas? Am I to unearth and repeat some of the
> incorrect assertions you made to me in private as you proofread my
> 'Kensa Lyver Redya'?
>
> No, I think not; such conduct is not attractive.
>
> It is gratifying that we have an emerging consensus on this thread
> about the role diacritics should have in KS, one that diverges from
> your views.
>
> Nicholas and Michael are, of course, quite free to publish works in
> whatever orthography they choose, and to encumber them with as many
> diacritics as they please. In the same way, they're at liberty to
> lard their Cornish with as many macaronic Tregearisms as they fancy,
> no matter how 'Kernglish' the result might look.
>
> However, they are NOT free to do the same with the formal
> specification of KS that will be submitted to the CLP in due course.
> That must reflect the consensus of this group, at least it must do
> so if it is to have my name and my support behind it.
>
> Let us hope that the final KS specification is indeed written in the
> light of this apparent consensus, and is not 'too much encumbered
> with [mandatory] diaritical signs'.
>
> Eddie Climo
>
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> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
>
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> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
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--
Craig Weatherhill
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