[Spellyans] A 'Censored Message'? Can this be?

Janice Lobb janicelobb at gmail.com
Mon Jan 31 18:43:20 GMT 2011


I've met you, so I know what you look like!
Jan

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>wrote:

> I'd hate to imagine what your mental picture of me might be!
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 31 Gen 2011, at 18:27, Janice Lobb wrote:
>
>  I have two lengthy archived posts (saying the same thing?) - one from
>> Truru Truru and the other from Jed Mathews a.k.a. Truru/Carrek. I don't know
>> the gentleman in question, but I do prefer to deal with real names if I'm to
>> take people seriously. Ideally I like to have a mental picture of the
>> writer!
>> Jan
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>> wrote:
>> It's still on my post list.  Maybe he forgot that he posted it as Truru,
>> not Carrek.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31 Gen 2011, at 17:56, Eddie Climo wrote:
>>
>> Truru (a pseudonym) claims on C24 that our esteemed Moderator, Michael
>> (not a pseudonym), has censored  this post of his to Spellyans. Can this be
>> true? As far as I know, I received a copy of it with the rest of the
>> postings on this list.
>>
>> Perhaps Michael would care to comment.
>>
>> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
>> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
>> Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
>> Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Truru Truru <ebost.truru at googlemail.com>
>> Date: 2011 Mys Genver 30 18:42:44 GMT+00:00
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] dictionnaire de l'Académie française
>> Reply-To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>
>> May I wade in?
>>
>> I can't speak for all Cornish speakers, I can only speak for my own
>> experiences. The fact that this discussion is even being had would suggest
>> that there is no consensus on the issue of diacritics.
>>
>> Whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means 'until', I
>> say [bɪz], and whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means
>> 'world', I say [biːz]. I can't give examples of other bys/bes type words
>> because I haven't looked into it very much. But I'm sure there would be
>> other times where (for me) context would suffice.
>>
>> The point has been made that some KK users pronounce bys and pryv
>> incorrectly. I do not believe this is a problem directly caused by the
>> orthography (although it is true it does not help) but by poor teaching. A
>> learner only has to be told once that until is [bɪz] and world is [biːz]. It
>> is not true that this can only work with oral teaching, I have not been to a
>> single class and have learnt Cornish solely through books and yet I know the
>> difference because the books I've read taught it.
>>
>> Also, the point's been made that in languages like French and Spanish
>> spelling words without the diacritics would be spelling them wrong. This is
>> indeed correct, but I don't believe this argument is relevant to Cornish.
>> Cornish doesn't have one orthography, like those languages, it has many, and
>> so I think it would be impossible to claim that spelling a word without
>> diacritics is wrong when there are so many other orthographies that don't
>> use diacritics. It could be the case that in 100 years time, the idea of
>> spelling Cornish without diacritics is as strange as spelling French without
>> them. However we are not at that point now. Today there are generations of
>> Cornish speakers who are used to spelling without diacritics and it might be
>> rather idealistic to expect them all to suddenly start using them after a
>> directive from above says they should.
>>
>> Nevertheless, in my opinion, all this discussion is (if you forgive the
>> bluntness) kind of pointless anyway. The SWF in 2013 will be a political
>> compromise, there's no denying it. We can ignore that fact for as long we
>> like but it will be a fact nonetheless. We need to be focusing on how to
>> make the SWF better in a way that could be acceptable to a majority of
>> Cornish users. If it's obvious that KS's current range of diacritics will
>> not find favour with that majority then we should not be stubbornly
>> continuing the matter. I've got the impression (correct me if I'm wrong)
>> that a very limited use of diacritics, for things like anomalous vowel
>> length, might find a majority favour. As for y/e, I don't like the umlaut
>> and don't think it fits in well with the overall 'look' of Cornish. I also
>> don't see it gaining widespread favour. I have always preferred <ei> anyway
>> and would like to see this at least mentioned in 2013 to see if opinion has
>> shifted. If not, then I don't see the y/e distinction going away and we
>> shouldn't spend time trying to fix things that can't be fixed in a manner
>> acceptable to a majority.
>>
>> This discussion is part of a larger choice that needs to be made. Either
>> you can focus on proposing fixes to the SWF, which means finding solutions
>> that will be acceptable to a majority of users, or you can ditch the SWF,
>> tread your own path, and go back to KS1. If the SWF is ditched, would this
>> send us all back to the pre-SWF days? Would traditional forms end up being
>> cut off from the arena that matters most - schools? Would KS end up being
>> sidelined? Or would there be a surge of support for KS1, meaning that it
>> might stand a chance at becoming a future SWF? Who knows. The options need
>> to be weighed up. The current KS it seems, in my opinion, is too far from
>> the SWF to be accepted by a majority, but not close enough to your ideal of
>> a KS1-type orthography. What shouldn't happen, not at all, is that the
>> traditionalist lobby becomes fractured.
>>
>> Carrek
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/1/30 Eddie Climo <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
>> On 2011 Gen 30, at 17:14, nicholas williams wrote:
>> Whatever orthography one uses one's first concern should perhaps be that
>> the Cornish is accurate.
>> Certainly we always ensure as far as possible that our published Cornish
>> is correct.
>>
>> Eddie himself is not without fault here. Let me cite some examples at
>> random from Whedhlow Dama Goodh FSS/T-C:
>>
>> Oh, dear, are we now to descend to playground jibes? Am I to emulate your
>> behaviour and scour your published works to hunt for errors to fling in your
>> face, Nicholas? Am I to unearth and repeat some of the incorrect assertions
>> you made to me in private as you proofread my 'Kensa Lyver Redya'?
>>
>> No, I think not; such conduct is not attractive.
>>
>> It is gratifying that we have an emerging consensus on this thread about
>> the role diacritics should have in KS, one that diverges from your views.
>>
>> Nicholas and Michael are, of course, quite free to publish works in
>> whatever orthography they choose, and to encumber them with as many
>> diacritics as they please. In the same way, they're at liberty to lard their
>> Cornish with as many macaronic Tregearisms as they fancy, no matter how
>> 'Kernglish' the result might look.
>>
>> However, they are NOT free to do the same with the formal specification of
>> KS that will be submitted to the CLP in due course. That must reflect the
>> consensus of this group, at least it must do so if it is to have my name and
>> my support behind it.
>>
>> Let us hope that the final KS specification is indeed written in the light
>> of this apparent consensus, and is not 'too much encumbered with [mandatory]
>> diaritical signs'.
>>
>> Eddie Climo
>>
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>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
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