[Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site

Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com
Thu Aug 9 15:17:12 IST 2012


On Aug 9, 2012, at 11:56 AM, christian.semmens at gmail.com wrote:

> It is to the future that we now need to be looking. The "compromise" reached last time has nearly run its course.

I agree.

> 
> There is a clear issue in perception between Cornish for officialdom which seems to be what Jenefer is framing SWF/K as, and Official Cornish, which I fear everyone else sees SWF/K as.
> Again why should the main communication channels be forced (in the future) to use a form with a spelling aesthetic that harks back twenty years to a phonology that it doesn't use? 

I agree.

> If round one finalised the phonological and linguistic aspects in the main, this leaves us with the legacy aesthetic issues to deal with. I suspect that the majority of Cornish seen (other than the publications of the various groups many of which seem beyond the capabilities of first stage learners) will be of an official or semi-official nature and this will continue to drive the now baseless novel aesthetic of the SWF/K.
> Christian

I fully agree with your assessment, Christian.
Dan

> 
> On 09/08/2012 8:34 Lowe Jenefer wrote:
> 
> Ray,
>  
> I have absolutely no problem with a page on the website showing different orthographies – it’s a very good idea. The choice has always been with the individual and outside official use and education we work with all orthographies and are happy to explain the various systems of spelling – in fact I thought we had a page on that already. The point with the glossary is not orthography – the glossary has been updated, extended and superseded by the dictionary and that is why the glossary has been removed.  The spec, the paper I have just sent round and a page on other orthographies are still there as far as I am aware.  The website is due for a review later this month – there are a number of things we need to update or want to refresh and haven’t had the time to do – and we can look at this then and amend or update nas required. The point with the SWF is to provide a neutral spelling for official use. It does not mean and never has, that other orthographies are not supported.
>  
> What I am not prepared to do is make unilateral decisions about the SWF that go against the agreement and spec, as that would open the door for everyone on all sides to do the same. We have established that there will be a review and that is the proper way to look at the agreement and make any changes. We will then uphold and implement whatever comes out of the review.
>  
> Jenefer Lowe
> Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya
> Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek
> Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow
> Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie
> County Hall / Lys Kernow
> Truro
> TR1 3AY
>  
> tel: / pell: 01872 323465
> email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk
> website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk  
>  
> Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter!
> @magakernow
>  
> Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook!  Find us on Facebook! 
> www.facebook.com/magakernow
>  
> The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council.
> Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow
>  
>  
> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Ray Chubb
> Sent: 07 August 2012 11:29
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site
>  
> Jenefer, I think you are beginning to sound like a gramophone record stuck in the grove.
>  
> We all know what the Treyarnon agreement was, the point that I have been making on this forum is that the Partnership is a public body representing Cornish and the whole of the Cornish language movement but since the removal of the SWF (t) glossary from the web site there is no indication at all of what native Cornish looks like.  The (t) glossary was in fact a very poor indication of traditional spelling but at least it was something.
>  
> How can the Partnership accept public money when it represents only those who think that it is O.K. to tinker wholesale with native forms of Cornish?
>  
> I shall certainly be making representations at the next Partnership meeting to have a page on the web site dedicated to show what various orthographies look like including those of native writers.  If I am outvoted as I usually am by the politicians on the Partnership, (including the ones who speak Cornish) I shall take the matter up with Cornwall Councillors.
>  
> On 7 Est 2012, at 10:00, Lowe Jenefer wrote:
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
> Dear all,
>  
> I am away working at an event in Brittany at the moment and therefore only infrequently checking email.  However, I feel I must just set the record straight. My position and that of MAGA is to work to the agreements made unless and until those change in any way, via the review. I have sent out the attached document, produced by the AHG as part of the agreement and spec, many times, but it continues to be ignored. It has always also been available on the website along with the spec. It sets out clearly what was agreed on variants and on traditional graphs and it is that agreement to which we adhere. The agreement put traditional graphs in place for those who wish to use them, but was emphatic that this did not create another 'form' - it wasn't a case of use all or nothing of the traditional graphs. I think the paper makes the position at the moment absolutely clear. That is why we are not looking at a dictionary with traditional forms but explaining the alternatives available within the one dictionary. The online dictionary will enable searches for traditional graph spellings and should be available, once a couple of technical issues are resolved.
>  
> We are very happy to accept traditional graphs in use - in newsletter articles for example, but it was never the case that they would be used officially and we have to stick to the agreements made.
>  
> Michael is right - SWF is not KK, the basis is different and we do need to keep aesthetic and linguistic points apart. This is exactly why the agreement at Treyarnon separated out the linguistic variants catered for by the Middle and Late variants from the aesthetic considerations represented by the traditional graphs. Trond was very clear on this point and right to be so.  That is why he originally termed the traditional graphs 'side forms' - meaning they exist beside and along with the official forms.
>  
> And Michael - once again the initial information on the conference is available in the latest newsletter you have received. Full information will go out as soon as the details of venue are confirmed.
>  
> I may not be online again for a day or two but hope that this will help to explain why we take the stance we do in support of the agreement as made.
>  
> Yn lel,
>  
> Jenefer Lowe
> Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya
> Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek
> Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow
> Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie
> County Hall / Lys Kernow
> Truro
> TR1 3AY
>  
> tel: / pell: 01872 323465
> email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk
> website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk 
>  
> Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter!
> @magakernow
>  
> Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook!  Find us on Facebook!
> www.facebook.com/magakernow
>  
> The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council.
> Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Daniel Prohaska
> Sent: 05 August 2012 16:05
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site
>  
> I can't remember. It's likely I wrote to Jenefer or Elizabeth about it.
> Dan
>  
>  
> On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
>  
> > On 5 Aug 2012, at 14:27, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> >
> >> I have offered to make a SWF/t version of the dictionary and my offer has simply been ignored…
> >
> > Who was it who ignored it?
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>  
>  
> Ray Chubb
>  
> Portreth
> Kernow
>  
> Agan Tavas web site:  www.agantavas.com
> 
>  
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