[Spellyans] kemeres

A. J. Trim ajtrim at msn.com
Tue May 15 20:33:21 IST 2012


Nicky,

Thank you for your time, and for your really good explanation.
I understand the SWF system much better now as a result.

I'm sorry about <komparriv>. I made a mistake, and I shouldn't have included it!


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: Nicky Rowe 
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 7:10 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kemeres


  So in, for example, <kemmyn> "legacy", <kemynskrif> "a will", we have a word within a word and with secondary stress on <kem->.


  Why then do we not retain the double <m> to match your explanation of <pellgowser>?


No, there's no secondary stress on kem. The "secondary stress" only happens when words of one syllable are used, e.g. pell, pedn, cabm, corr, rann (words with radn don't feature in the dictionary, not sure why). So because "kem" on its own isn't a word, it's part of the two syllable word "kemmyn", there's no secondary stress.

Here's some others:

pellgowser
pednfenten
cabmdhavas
corrgowsel
ranndiryel
brodnviles
mabmscrifow
jynnscrifa
berrscrifa
gwadnliwek



  Why <komparriv> "ratio" but <komparrivow>?



Like Dan says this is two words "kompar" and "riv", so it's not really a double r but just two separate r's belonging to different words.


Nicky





On 14 May 2012 22:01, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

  Nicky,

  So in, for example, <kemmyn> "legacy", <kemynskrif> "a will", we have a word within a word and with secondary stress on <kem->.
  Why then do we not retain the double <m> to match your explanation of <pellgowser>?

  Why <gallos>, <galosow> but <ollgallos>, <ollgallosow>?
  Why <komparriv> "ratio" but <komparrivow>?


  Regards,

  Andrew J. Trim  




  From: Nicky Rowe 
  Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 5:02 PM
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kemeres


  Yes it's stressed as pellGOWSer, but the idea is that the pell has a slight stress because it's a word within a word instead of just a syllable of a word. So the pel in pelednow has no stress, because it's part of the word pellen. But because pellgowser is a compound word made up of pell and cowser, the pell has a slight secondary stress that keeps pell intact.

  Whether this secondary stress existed or not in traditional Cornish I haven't the foggiest, but for the purposes of the SWF, there 'tis.

  Nicky




  On 14 May 2012 01:50, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

    Nicky,

    Thanks. However, I’m not convinced that <pellgowser> can have a secondary stress on the first syllable, even though the SWF spec. says that it does. Surely, it’s stressed as pellGOWSer.

    Should the <-he> words all be written as two words, e.g. <gwadn he>, <gwell ha>, <spladn howgh> , <ombèll hes>, etc.?


    Regards,

    Andrew J. Trim


    From: Nicky Rowe 
    Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 9:30 PM
    To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
    Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kemeres

      However, if the prefix ends in a double letter (i.e. ‹ll›, ‹mm›, ‹nn› and ‹rr›), the double letter is retained, e.g. <kollverk> "an apostrophe", "kollverkys> "apostrophes".


    This is a compound word "loss mark" like pellgowser and pednglin. The SWF spec says they have "secondary stress".

    -he words also keep secondary stress, i.e. gwellhe, gwadnhe, etc (same as KS). The reason for this comes from gwadn hez used in Nebbaz Gerriau.

    Nicky




    On 13 May 2012 00:50, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

      I find that this system is quite difficult. Perhaps it is just a lack of explanation. My examples are from MAGA's new  .pdf  dictionary:

      With some words, we get the expected result, e.g. <bomm> "a blow"/"a crash", <bommel> "a buffer", <bomellow> "buffers".

      It's not quite as simple as that.
      Sometimes we have a prefix that ends in the same letter as the word to which it is prefixed, e.g. <howllennow> "parasols". This is quite reasonable.

      Sometimes we have a prefix with a double letter (i.e. ‹ll›, ‹mm›, ‹nn› and ‹rr›), e.g. <kemmyn> "common", <kemynskrif> "a will". So far, so good.

      However, if the prefix ends in a double letter (i.e. ‹ll›, ‹mm›, ‹nn› and ‹rr›), the double letter is retained, e.g. <kollverk> "an apostrophe", "kollverkys> "apostrophes".
      At first, this appears to be at odds with <bomellow> above. Then we have <koloryon> "a male loser" which seems to conform.
      We have <jynner> "a male mechanic" but <jynores> "a female mechanic". These are derivatives of <jynn> "engine".
      Then we have <jynnweyth> "machinery" and <jynnweythek> "mechanical", where <jynn> is a prefix in a compound word.
      We also have <gwellhe> "to improve". Are we saying that this is a compound word rather than a derivative?
      I also found <ombellhe> "to withdraw" and <ollgallosow> (apparently the plural of <ollgallos> "an omnipotence".)


      Regards,

      Andrew J. Trim



      From: Daniel Prohaska 
      Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2012 1:51 AM
      To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
      Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kemeres

      Double consonants in pre-tonic, unstressed position are only simplified in the cases of ‹ll›, ‹mm›, ‹nn› and ‹rr›. 
      Dan

      On May 11, 2012, at 11:17 PM, A. J. Trim wrote:


        However:-

        This is different from the SWF <attes> "comfort" but <attesva> "comfort station" / "lavatory".
        Why is this not <atesva>?

        We also have SWF <attamya> "to tackle", <abattiow> "abbeys", <addyansow> "additions", <Bouddieth>*  "Buddhism", <apperya> "to feature", and <robbyoryon> "robbers". 
        Why do we have a double letter after an unstressed vowel in these words?

        [ * Also, why not <Bouddiedh>* . Does this have something in common with <nowyth>? As I understand it, the SWF rule is final <-dh> when unstressed.]


        Regards,

        Andrew J. Trim




        From: Nicholas Williams 
        Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 2:54 PM
        To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
        Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kemeres

        No. The <mm> or <bm> is written only after a stressed vowel. 
        After an unstressed vowel as in <kemeres> the consonant is written singular.
        This is the same as dallath but dalethys, or tyller but tyleryow, cannas/cadnas but canasow.

        Nicholas


        On 10 May 2012, at 14:47, Jon Mills wrote:


          Should it not be written kemmeres / kebmeres ?



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