[Spellyans] Is there a future for the SWF?

John Nash mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com
Wed May 23 10:52:29 IST 2012


Still off topic I'm afraid, but I've attached a pic I took of my wife  
Mim at Lands End next to the chopper that brought the Olympic flame.  
She's a lot prettier than me, but unaccountably still didn't get on  
the news. I told her not to wear that Bob Dylan cap...
Oll an gwella
John Nash

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On 23 May 2012, at 10:22, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> A Gowetha,
>
> Like others I watched the Olympic flame touch down at Culrose, and  
> make its
> way to Land's End, Penzance, and onwards.
>
> I was struck by the number of standard-size union jacks everywhere  
> - and a
> lady in Devon let slip the fact that they had been given out en  
> route.   I
> was also struck by the complete absence of Banerow Peran on any of the
> sequences which I witnessed.   A further thought occurred to me -  
> why the
> union jacks?    The Olympic team is Great Britain rather than  
> United Kingdom
> - so this was the wrong union flag anyway...
>
> But we are wandering off topic.     Mea culpa -   an ken Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans- 
> bounces at kernowek.net]
> On Behalf Of ewan wilson
> Sent: 22 May 2012 22:28
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Is there a future for the SWF?
>
> As a Scot who maintains perfectly amicable relations with many  
> Englishmen
> and women, nevertheless one does come across the odd crass  
> 'superiority
> complex' haughty and plain pig ignorant offensive types. ( It ,  
> alas, works
> both ways, I confess) .
> However, when one's language and culture are being deliberately  
> sudelined
> and denigrated then indignation is a perfectly justified response! The
> latest 'snub' at Land's End really takes the biscuit. Considering  
> the way
> the Establishment fall over backwards to accommodate so many  
> 'immigrant'
> tongues it makes this latest suppression all the more insulting.
> What were the circumstances in which Tregear was found? How long  
> did it take
> to 'decipher' it and then issue it for publish consumption?
> I believe the late Prof Caerwyn Williams discovered BK but it  
> languished in
> his possession till his passing? Wonder where exactly he laid hands  
> on it?
> Again it says something about the 'cinderella' status Celtic  
> Studies Depts
> seem to accord to Cornish  ( a result, even of 'snooty'  prejudice,
> perhaps?!) Does Manx suffer similarly, I wonder?
> At least Glasgow University Celtic Dept, to give them their due,  
> offered
> both Cornish and Breton as an optional paper up to the early 80s  
> when the
> late Donald Howells retired. The Cornish literature studied  
> included Sokes
> Pascon agan Arluth; Beunans Meriasek and Norris' The Ancient  
> Cornish Drama.
> No Tregear. Not a thing from the later period or the revival or UC.  
> Breton
> included a whole range up to the modern period. Evidently UC was  
> sniffed at!
>
> Manx was supposed to follow Kenneth Hurlstone Jackson's phonology  
> study but
> it had been 'pinched' from the University Library so we just did  
> the new
> Manx Bible and some carvals instead!!
>
> There was a 'thesis' option instead of one of the Papers, so I guess,
> theoretically, one might have offered something specialising in  
> Revived
> Cornish.
>
> Ewan.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Chubb" <ray at spyrys.org>
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Is there a future for the SWF?
>
>
>
> On 21 Me 2012, at 21:55, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> On 21 May 2012, at 14:17, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>
>>> The spelling for revived Cornish should reflect that of Cornish  
>>> at  its
>>> zenith because spelling afterwards was the outcome of English
>>> oppression.
>>
>> When is the zenith? Who decides?
>
> That's an easy one, up until Glasney College was surpressed.
>
>>
>> Spelling afterwards was devised by the speakers using the tools  
>> they  had.
>
>> Some of those speakers had no access to the scribal tradition,  it is
>> true. I shouldn't bother with "oppression" as a factor in  judging an
>> orthographic form. I like most of us favour the scribal  tradition  
>> to some
>
>> of the later forms, but none of those writers were  thinking "Oh,  
>> drat, I
>> wish I could write properly, but I've been  oppressed."
>
>
> Somewhat facetious Michael. If you were a Cornishman living in
> Cornwall today and still suffering under that oppression, (I have
> commented here about the difficulty of getting Cornish into schools),
> you would have a better appreciation of where I am coming from.
>
>>
>>> West Cornish dialect can be shown with alternate spellings, many of
>>> which are found in the Middle Cornish texts.
>>
>> KS offers the usual options (b?s/b?s, penn/pedn). Some later forms
>>  like -ei have been put to good use in texts like Enys Tresour  
>> where  the
>> dialect distinctions are important to the enjoyment of the story.
>
> That's fine but why not mark a single final 'n' and 'm' with a
> diacritic to show that it can pre-occlude?  Final double consonants
> are only rarely found in the historical texts.
>
>>
>>> The current academic view on correct pronunciation can be  
>>> indicated  with
>
>>> diacritics.
>>>
>>> Everyday writing should omit diacritics to ensure that what we   
>>> write
>>> looks like Cornish.
>>
>> Sorry, Ray, but this is anachronistic. Most of the medieval   
>> orthographies
>
>> in Europe didn't start out making use of diacritical  marks, but  
>> modern
>> languages do because it was part of the  development of their
>> orthographies.
>
> How can real Cornish be anachronistic? You may as well say the Mona
> Lisa is anachronistic. Cornish is what it is.
>
>>
>> In fact, traditional Cornish manuscripts make use of a huge  
>> number  of
>> abbreviations and special symbols which go far beyond the   
>> alphabet A-Z.
>> It's simply not true to say that Cornish doesn't look  like  
>> Cornish if it
>> has marks outside of the alphabet. Cornish has  looked like all  
>> sorts of
>> things throughout its history!
>
> If the manuscripts have so many markings perhaps you would like to
> restrict yourself to the ones that are found.
>
>>
>> Everyday traditional Cornish didn't make any allowance for   
>> regularity in
>> spelling, either, yet today we are happy to do so.
>
> Yes of course, Nance had to make choices. We should restrict ourselves
> to saying that his choices were wrong not indulge in wholesale
> invention as some revivalists have done.
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> Ray Chubb
>
> Portreth
> Kernow
>
> Agan Tavas web site:  www.agantavas.com
>
>
>
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