[Spellyans] Is there a future for the SWF?

Craig Weatherhill craig at agantavas.org
Wed May 23 11:26:30 IST 2012


And Mim didn't get jumped on by a dozen Metropolitan policemen  
disguised as grey aliens?

Craig


On 23 Me 2012, at 10:52, John Nash wrote:

> Still off topic I'm afraid, but I've attached a pic I took of my  
> wife Mim at Lands End next to the chopper that brought the Olympic  
> flame. She's a lot prettier than me, but unaccountably still didn't  
> get on the news. I told her not to wear that Bob Dylan cap...
> Oll an gwella
> John Nash
>
> <Mim at Lands End.jpg>...
>
>
> On 23 May 2012, at 10:22, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>> A Gowetha,
>>
>> Like others I watched the Olympic flame touch down at Culrose, and  
>> make its
>> way to Land's End, Penzance, and onwards.
>>
>> I was struck by the number of standard-size union jacks everywhere  
>> - and a
>> lady in Devon let slip the fact that they had been given out en  
>> route.   I
>> was also struck by the complete absence of Banerow Peran on any of  
>> the
>> sequences which I witnessed.   A further thought occurred to me -  
>> why the
>> union jacks?    The Olympic team is Great Britain rather than  
>> United Kingdom
>> - so this was the wrong union flag anyway...
>>
>> But we are wandering off topic.     Mea culpa -   an ken Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net 
>> ]
>> On Behalf Of ewan wilson
>> Sent: 22 May 2012 22:28
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Is there a future for the SWF?
>>
>> As a Scot who maintains perfectly amicable relations with many  
>> Englishmen
>> and women, nevertheless one does come across the odd crass  
>> 'superiority
>> complex' haughty and plain pig ignorant offensive types. ( It ,  
>> alas, works
>> both ways, I confess) .
>> However, when one's language and culture are being deliberately  
>> sudelined
>> and denigrated then indignation is a perfectly justified response!  
>> The
>> latest 'snub' at Land's End really takes the biscuit. Considering  
>> the way
>> the Establishment fall over backwards to accommodate so many  
>> 'immigrant'
>> tongues it makes this latest suppression all the more insulting.
>> What were the circumstances in which Tregear was found? How long  
>> did it take
>> to 'decipher' it and then issue it for publish consumption?
>> I believe the late Prof Caerwyn Williams discovered BK but it  
>> languished in
>> his possession till his passing? Wonder where exactly he laid hands  
>> on it?
>> Again it says something about the 'cinderella' status Celtic  
>> Studies Depts
>> seem to accord to Cornish  ( a result, even of 'snooty'  prejudice,
>> perhaps?!) Does Manx suffer similarly, I wonder?
>> At least Glasgow University Celtic Dept, to give them their due,  
>> offered
>> both Cornish and Breton as an optional paper up to the early 80s  
>> when the
>> late Donald Howells retired. The Cornish literature studied  
>> included Sokes
>> Pascon agan Arluth; Beunans Meriasek and Norris' The Ancient  
>> Cornish Drama.
>> No Tregear. Not a thing from the later period or the revival or UC.  
>> Breton
>> included a whole range up to the modern period. Evidently UC was  
>> sniffed at!
>>
>> Manx was supposed to follow Kenneth Hurlstone Jackson's phonology  
>> study but
>> it had been 'pinched' from the University Library so we just did  
>> the new
>> Manx Bible and some carvals instead!!
>>
>> There was a 'thesis' option instead of one of the Papers, so I guess,
>> theoretically, one might have offered something specialising in  
>> Revived
>> Cornish.
>>
>> Ewan.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ray Chubb" <ray at spyrys.org>
>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Is there a future for the SWF?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21 Me 2012, at 21:55, Michael Everson wrote:
>>
>>> On 21 May 2012, at 14:17, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>>
>>>> The spelling for revived Cornish should reflect that of Cornish  
>>>> at  its
>>>> zenith because spelling afterwards was the outcome of English
>>>> oppression.
>>>
>>> When is the zenith? Who decides?
>>
>> That's an easy one, up until Glasney College was surpressed.
>>
>>>
>>> Spelling afterwards was devised by the speakers using the tools  
>>> they  had.
>>
>>> Some of those speakers had no access to the scribal tradition,  it  
>>> is
>>> true. I shouldn't bother with "oppression" as a factor in  judging  
>>> an
>>> orthographic form. I like most of us favour the scribal  tradition  
>>> to some
>>
>>> of the later forms, but none of those writers were  thinking "Oh,  
>>> drat, I
>>> wish I could write properly, but I've been  oppressed."
>>
>>
>> Somewhat facetious Michael. If you were a Cornishman living in
>> Cornwall today and still suffering under that oppression, (I have
>> commented here about the difficulty of getting Cornish into schools),
>> you would have a better appreciation of where I am coming from.
>>
>>>
>>>> West Cornish dialect can be shown with alternate spellings, many of
>>>> which are found in the Middle Cornish texts.
>>>
>>> KS offers the usual options (bÿs/bës, penn/pedn). Some later forms
>>> like -ei have been put to good use in texts like Enys Tresour  
>>> where  the
>>> dialect distinctions are important to the enjoyment of the story.
>>
>> That's fine but why not mark a single final 'n' and 'm' with a
>> diacritic to show that it can pre-occlude?  Final double consonants
>> are only rarely found in the historical texts.
>>
>>>
>>>> The current academic view on correct pronunciation can be  
>>>> indicated  with
>>
>>>> diacritics.
>>>>
>>>> Everyday writing should omit diacritics to ensure that what we   
>>>> write
>>>> looks like Cornish.
>>>
>>> Sorry, Ray, but this is anachronistic. Most of the medieval   
>>> orthographies
>>
>>> in Europe didn't start out making use of diacritical  marks, but  
>>> modern
>>> languages do because it was part of the  development of their
>>> orthographies.
>>
>> How can real Cornish be anachronistic? You may as well say the Mona
>> Lisa is anachronistic. Cornish is what it is.
>>
>>>
>>> In fact, traditional Cornish manuscripts make use of a huge  
>>> number  of
>>> abbreviations and special symbols which go far beyond the   
>>> alphabet A-Z.
>>> It's simply not true to say that Cornish doesn't look  like  
>>> Cornish if it
>>> has marks outside of the alphabet. Cornish has  looked like all  
>>> sorts of
>>> things throughout its history!
>>
>> If the manuscripts have so many markings perhaps you would like to
>> restrict yourself to the ones that are found.
>>
>>>
>>> Everyday traditional Cornish didn't make any allowance for   
>>> regularity in
>>> spelling, either, yet today we are happy to do so.
>>
>> Yes of course, Nance had to make choices. We should restrict  
>> ourselves
>> to saying that his choices were wrong not indulge in wholesale
>> invention as some revivalists have done.
>>>
>>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>> Ray Chubb
>>
>> Portreth
>> Kernow
>>
>> Agan Tavas web site:  www.agantavas.com
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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