From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 6 18:46:50 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 18:46:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Message-ID: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Thu Sep 6 19:04:25 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 19:04:25 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: > Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! > Ewan. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ewan wilson > To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM > Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig > > One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! > I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by > a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The > title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably > fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. > Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old > Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: > ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' > This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later > stage in the story some Cornish she knew: > 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' > > At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre > and she writes: > ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and > Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads > over the moor.' > Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or > Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around > the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an > actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any > ideas? > I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few > 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine > Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously > Scottish as the name had hinted. > I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working > smattering of UC!!! > Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while > consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! > > Ewan. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 6 21:31:31 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:31:31 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query ForCraig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> Message-ID: <3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of her books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do this year. It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have done her homework on Cornish culture. I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on the outskirts of Penzance? Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query ForCraig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Thu Sep 6 23:36:01 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 23:36:01 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query ForCraig In-Reply-To: <3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> <3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> No, on the edge of St Ives, between there and Carbis Bay. The other place I mentioned, Gwealcarn, was totally obliterated by the Giew Mine at Cripple's Ease (just N of the Engine Inn). Field-names apart, I can't think of any settlement name with west of those two. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 21:31, ewan wilson wrote: > Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. > I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of her > books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I > thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do this > year. > It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the > Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have > done her homework on Cornish culture. > I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the > topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but > from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But > the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes > it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on > the outskirts of Penzance? > > Ewan. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Craig Weatherhill > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name > Query ForCraig > > Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, > Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no > place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, > which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from > being that now, but probably was in antiquity). > > I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. > > Craig > > > > On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: > >> Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! >> Ewan. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: ewan wilson >> To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM >> Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig >> >> One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! >> I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by >> a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. >> The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a >> presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith >> Peninsula. >> Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old >> Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: >> ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' >> This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a >> later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: >> 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' >> >> At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre >> and she writes: >> ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and >> Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads >> over the moor.' >> Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or >> Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' >> around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should >> mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! >> Craig- any ideas? >> I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a >> few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a >> 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative >> and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. >> I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working >> smattering of UC!!! >> Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while >> consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! >> >> Ewan. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 7 00:21:22 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 00:21:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> Message-ID: <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> Again, Thanks! What's the etymology of 'gweal' in any case, now I come to think of it, in these componds? My Nance dictionary doesn't seem to list anything. Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig No, on the edge of St Ives, between there and Carbis Bay. The other place I mentioned, Gwealcarn, was totally obliterated by the Giew Mine at Cripple's Ease (just N of the Engine Inn). Field-names apart, I can't think of any settlement name with west of those two. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 21:31, ewan wilson wrote: Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of her books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do this year. It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have done her homework on Cornish culture. I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on the outskirts of Penzance? Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query ForCraig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Fri Sep 7 00:18:33 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 00:18:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig In-Reply-To: <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> It's the Late Cornish form of , "open field", usually just translated as "field". The in Late Cornish represents the long E, roughly "ai". Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 00:21, ewan wilson wrote: > Again, Thanks! > What's the etymology of 'gweal' in any case, now I come to think of > it, in these componds? My Nance dictionary doesn't seem to list > anything. > Ewan. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Craig Weatherhill > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name > QueryForCraig > > No, on the edge of St Ives, between there and Carbis Bay. > > The other place I mentioned, Gwealcarn, was totally obliterated by > the Giew Mine at Cripple's Ease (just N of the Engine Inn). Field- > names apart, I can't think of any settlement name with west > of those two. > > Craig > > > > > On 6 Gwn 2012, at 21:31, ewan wilson wrote: > >> Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. >> I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of her >> books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I >> thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do this >> year. >> It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the >> Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have >> done her homework on Cornish culture. >> I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the >> topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but >> from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But >> the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes >> it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on >> the outskirts of Penzance? >> >> Ewan. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Craig Weatherhill >> To: Standard Cornish discussion list >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name >> Query ForCraig >> >> Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, >> Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no >> place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, >> Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's >> far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). >> >> I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: >> >>> Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! >>> Ewan. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: ewan wilson >>> To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net >>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM >>> Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig >>> >>> One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! >>> I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written >>> by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in >>> 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a >>> presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith >>> Peninsula. >>> Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old >>> Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: >>> ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' >>> This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a >>> later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: >>> 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' >>> >>> At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack >>> Theatre and she writes: >>> ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and >>> Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads >>> over the moor.' >>> Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or >>> Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' >>> around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should >>> mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! >>> Craig- any ideas? >>> I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a >>> few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a >>> 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative >>> and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. >>> I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working >>> smattering of UC!!! >>> Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while >>> consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! >>> >>> Ewan. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Sep 7 00:24:46 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 16:24:46 -0700 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig In-Reply-To: <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> Message-ID: On 6 Sep 2012, at 16:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > It's the Late Cornish form of , "open field", usually just translated as "field". The in Late Cornish represents the long E, roughly "ai". [?we?l] Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From ken at ferintosh.org Fri Sep 7 10:28:50 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:28:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> Message-ID: <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> A gowetha, The Methodist Church at Chy-an-Gweal (St Ives) mysteriously inserts an "h" after the "w". I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) for that intrusive "h"? - An ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill Sent: 06 September 2012 19:04 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: 09/06/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Fri Sep 7 10:50:11 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:50:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <0CF1E9CE-57B2-4D0C-AEBE-7517FF417A86@agantavas.org> Perhaps because there was a lot of mining in the immediate vicinity, they got mixed up with ? Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 10:28, Ken MacKinnon wrote: > A gowetha, > > The Methodist Church at Chy-an-Gweal (St Ives) mysteriously inserts > an ?h? after the ?w?. I wonder whether there is any justification > (whether by grace, faith or works) for that intrusive ?h?? > > - An ken Ken > > From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net > ] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill > Sent: 06 September 2012 19:04 > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name > Query For Craig > > Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, > Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no > place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, > which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from > being that now, but probably was in antiquity). > > I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. > > Craig > > > > On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: > > > Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! > Ewan. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ewan wilson > To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM > Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig > > One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! > I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by > a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The > title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably > fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. > Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old > Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: > ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' > This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later > stage in the story some Cornish she knew: > 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' > > At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre > and she writes: > ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and > Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads > over the moor.' > Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or > Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around > the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an > actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any > ideas? > I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few > 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine > Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously > Scottish as the name had hinted. > I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working > smattering of UC!!! > Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while > consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! > > Ewan. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: > 09/06/12 > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Fri Sep 7 16:20:46 2012 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 17:20:46 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig In-Reply-To: References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> Message-ID: I think Craig means the open sound [??]? as in "bed", but longer... Dan On Sep 7, 2012, at 1:24 AM, Michael Everson wrote: > On 6 Sep 2012, at 16:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > >> It's the Late Cornish form of , "open field", usually just translated as "field". The in Late Cornish represents the long E, roughly "ai". > > [?we?l] > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From ken at ferintosh.org Fri Sep 7 17:00:25 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 17:00:25 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <0CF1E9CE-57B2-4D0C-AEBE-7517FF417A86@agantavas.org> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> <0CF1E9CE-57B2-4D0C-AEBE-7517FF417A86@agantavas.org> Message-ID: <002101cd8d11$e68af800$b3a0e800$@ferintosh.org> There was Craig: St Ives Consols and all that. - Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill Sent: 07 September 2012 10:50 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Perhaps because there was a lot of mining in the immediate vicinity, they got mixed up with ? Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 10:28, Ken MacKinnon wrote: A gowetha, The Methodist Church at Chy-an-Gweal (St Ives) mysteriously inserts an "h" after the "w". I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) for that intrusive "h"? - An ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill Sent: 06 September 2012 19:04 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: 09/06/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5253 - Release Date: 09/06/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Sep 7 18:01:50 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig In-Reply-To: References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> Message-ID: On 7 Sep 2012, at 08:20, Daniel Prohaska wrote: > I think Craig means the open sound [??]? as in "bed", but longer... I think that's an allophone of [e?]. /e/ is [?] when short and [e?] when long, but the long sound has some allophones, including some which break to [e?], if analogy to traditional English dialect in Cornwall is made. (Nothing unusual about this; in Irish [e?] can also break to [e?] and even [i?].) Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From craig at agantavas.org Fri Sep 7 18:57:20 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 18:57:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig In-Reply-To: References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db> <8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org> <157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> Message-ID: Answering for myself, the sound I allude to is midway between the extended E of "bed" and the "ai" sound of "brain". It is not "gwel" or "gwail" but between them. If anything, more like the "ai" sound of "fair", with a tendency toward schwa at the end of the sound before L. Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 18:01, Michael Everson wrote: > On 7 Sep 2012, at 08:20, Daniel Prohaska wrote: > >> I think Craig means the open sound [??]? as in "bed", but >> longer... > > I think that's an allophone of [e?]. /e/ is [?] when short and > [e?] when long, but the long sound has some allophones, including > some which break to [e?], if analogy to traditional English dialect > in Cornwall is made. > > (Nothing unusual about this; in Irish [e?] can also break to [e?] > and even [i?].) > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 7 21:17:21 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:17:21 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryFor Craig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: Hi, Ken! I'm sure that Wesley would have insisted the presence of the interposed 'h' in the Methodist church name would have been by grace through faith..though the Calvinists might point out if it was down to nearby mine works, it must have been by works, whatever Wesley may have said! By the way, Ken MacDonald dropped by recently and told me about the arrangements for Derick Thomson's funeral. Sounds a bit chaotic. Ken told only a good week or so after his death, and then landed with trying to sort something out. Turns out Derick had a cousin who's also a Kirk minister ( chaplain on the oil rigs) so they both shared in conducting the services. I hadn't realised one of Derick's sons had died, the one who sort of repped for Gairm. I mentioned the folding up of Gairm as something quite sad for Gaelic but Ken didn't really take us up on it. I get the impression Derick ran it very much as his personal, one man fiefdom and so it just faded with nobody really groomed to take up the mantle. The obituaries for Derick that I've seen were all a bit 'impersonal' and very much on his influence on and involvement with the Gaelic 'renaissance'. As to the character of the man, any personal anecdotes, warm reminiscences, there was a sad lack of them. His main involvement with Cornish was some disgruntlement he let be known when he thought his work was being mimicked in Cornish verse! He had quite an expert grasp of middle Welsh language and literature and I think he contributed to the course in mediaeval/early modern Cornish that was offered as a Paper at Honours level until Donald Howells retired. I lamented contraction of options at Glasgow ( all the Brythonic courses are now gone) to Ken MacDonald but again he didn't seem too interested. With his retirement I think he concentrated his energies more on his Christian ministry in the Kirk. Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryFor Craig A gowetha, The Methodist Church at Chy-an-Gweal (St Ives) mysteriously inserts an "h" after the "w". I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) for that intrusive "h"? - An ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill Sent: 06 September 2012 19:04 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: 09/06/12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 7 21:20:47 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:20:47 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place NameQueryForCraig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db><8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org><157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> Message-ID: <9197104D38014952BAB34F07118D8397@863ab83586db4db> Thanks, Craig, for the explanation. Now I see it in Nance! I suspect it's probably in your book on Late Cornish but for the life of me I cannot lay my hands on this- and it's bulging with notes I've made so I sincerely hope it turns up soon. It's driving me nuts, now I know it's not where I usually keep it! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place NameQueryForCraig It's the Late Cornish form of , "open field", usually just translated as "field". The in Late Cornish represents the long E, roughly "ai". Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 00:21, ewan wilson wrote: Again, Thanks! What's the etymology of 'gweal' in any case, now I come to think of it, in these componds? My Nance dictionary doesn't seem to list anything. Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig No, on the edge of St Ives, between there and Carbis Bay. The other place I mentioned, Gwealcarn, was totally obliterated by the Giew Mine at Cripple's Ease (just N of the Engine Inn). Field-names apart, I can't think of any settlement name with west of those two. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 21:31, ewan wilson wrote: Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of her books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do this year. It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have done her homework on Cornish culture. I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on the outskirts of Penzance? Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query ForCraig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Fri Sep 7 21:25:13 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:25:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place NameQueryForCraig In-Reply-To: <9197104D38014952BAB34F07118D8397@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db><8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org><157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db> <36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org> <9197104D38014952BAB34F07118D8397@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: I know the feeling. I've mislaid my book of archaeological field notes amassed over decades. Drawings and tiny notes written with a 0.1mm Rotring drawing pen. It's only A5 size and I know it's here somewhere. But I do have a house filled with paper. Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 21:20, ewan wilson wrote: > Thanks, Craig, for the explanation. Now I see it in Nance! > I suspect it's probably in your book on Late Cornish but for the > life of me I cannot lay my hands on this- and it's bulging with > notes I've made so I sincerely hope it turns up soon. It's driving > me nuts, now I know it's not where I usually keep it! > > Ewan. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Craig Weatherhill > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place > NameQueryForCraig > > It's the Late Cornish form of , "open field", usually just > translated as "field". The in Late Cornish represents the long > E, roughly "ai". > > Craig > > > On 7 Gwn 2012, at 00:21, ewan wilson wrote: > >> Again, Thanks! >> What's the etymology of 'gweal' in any case, now I come to think of >> it, in these componds? My Nance dictionary doesn't seem to list >> anything. >> Ewan. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Craig Weatherhill >> To: Standard Cornish discussion list >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name >> QueryForCraig >> >> No, on the edge of St Ives, between there and Carbis Bay. >> >> The other place I mentioned, Gwealcarn, was totally obliterated by >> the Giew Mine at Cripple's Ease (just N of the Engine Inn). Field- >> names apart, I can't think of any settlement name with west >> of those two. >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> >> On 6 Gwn 2012, at 21:31, ewan wilson wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. >>> I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of >>> her books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I >>> thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do >>> this year. >>> It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the >>> Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have >>> done her homework on Cornish culture. >>> I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the >>> topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but >>> from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But >>> the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes >>> it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on >>> the outskirts of Penzance? >>> >>> Ewan. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Craig Weatherhill >>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list >>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name >>> Query ForCraig >>> >>> Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, >>> Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's >>> no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, >>> Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's >>> far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). >>> >>> I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: >>> >>>> Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! >>>> Ewan. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: ewan wilson >>>> To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM >>>> Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig >>>> >>>> One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! >>>> I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written >>>> by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in >>>> 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a >>>> presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith >>>> Peninsula. >>>> Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old >>>> Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: >>>> ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' >>>> This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a >>>> later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: >>>> 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' >>>> >>>> At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack >>>> Theatre and she writes: >>>> ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan >>>> and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade >>>> roads over the moor.' >>>> Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or >>>> Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' >>>> around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should >>>> mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! >>>> Craig- any ideas? >>>> I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a >>>> few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a >>>> 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative >>>> and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. >>>> I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a >>>> working smattering of UC!!! >>>> Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth >>>> while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of >>>> Cornish! >>>> >>>> Ewan. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Spellyans mailing list >>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Spellyans mailing list >>> Spellyans at kernowek.net >>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 7 22:55:48 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 22:55:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place NameQueryForCraig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><3A1335E5F3774EED8816538BA15EE652@863ab83586db4db><8257D95C-AB69-4B95-9FA3-E42D9F3A3624@agantavas.org><157EB83695D342DAB32AAE7B8FEE4782@863ab83586db4db><36916A64-6FB5-46DF-BE13-56F6AA2B1CF8@agantavas.org><9197104D38014952BAB34F07118D8397@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: <5E9DB377B9AD4928892929B0817F53C7@863ab83586db4db> Oddly enough I have a similar 'loss' to your years of careful, painstaking archaelogical notes going astray- let's hope you do get 'em back safely! Mine is about three decades of sermon notes and outlines. I rarely redo any but very occasionally it's useful to look back and see how you tackled some passage! As for a house full of paper..hee! hee! Exactly the same problem here. I sometimes think it's just as well the Insurance people don't check for fire hazard! This place is crammed with theology, Celtic interest, British history, old linguistics, crime fiction, general fiction, poetry....not to mention periodicals, etc, etc... It'd make a fine blaze with half a lifetime's earnings up in smoke. Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place NameQueryForCraig I know the feeling. I've mislaid my book of archaeological field notes amassed over decades. Drawings and tiny notes written with a 0.1mm Rotring drawing pen. It's only A5 size and I know it's here somewhere. But I do have a house filled with paper. Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 21:20, ewan wilson wrote: Thanks, Craig, for the explanation. Now I see it in Nance! I suspect it's probably in your book on Late Cornish but for the life of me I cannot lay my hands on this- and it's bulging with notes I've made so I sincerely hope it turns up soon. It's driving me nuts, now I know it's not where I usually keep it! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place NameQueryForCraig It's the Late Cornish form of , "open field", usually just translated as "field". The in Late Cornish represents the long E, roughly "ai". Craig On 7 Gwn 2012, at 00:21, ewan wilson wrote: Again, Thanks! What's the etymology of 'gweal' in any case, now I come to think of it, in these componds? My Nance dictionary doesn't seem to list anything. Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryForCraig No, on the edge of St Ives, between there and Carbis Bay. The other place I mentioned, Gwealcarn, was totally obliterated by the Giew Mine at Cripple's Ease (just N of the Engine Inn). Field-names apart, I can't think of any settlement name with west of those two. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 21:31, ewan wilson wrote: Thanks, Craig, for the prompt reply. I'd never heard of her before, either, but came across three of her books in a charity shop and as this one was set in Cornwall I thought it the next best thing to visiting it which I can't do this year. It's a wee bit 'slow' for a thriller, to be honest, but all the Penwith references make it fascinating. And she does seem to have done her homework on Cornish culture. I wonder if she was just taking some 'poetic licence' with the topography, especially as St Edzell is obviously fictitious, but from the decriptions can only be either St Ives or Penzance. But the way she mentions the 'direct route' from there to Minack makes it sound as if you hit St Buryan first. Chy an Gweal...is that on the outskirts of Penzance? Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Weatherhill To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query ForCraig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 16:01:25 2012 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 16:01:25 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db> <7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: Justification by works? Surely not. On 7 Sep 2012, at 10:28, Ken MacKinnon wrote: > I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 8 21:12:11 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 21:12:11 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> As a calvinist myself, I hasten to reassure you that Justification by self-generated works righteousness is of course impossible. However can the eccentric spelling of the church as reported by Ken be a case of justification by mine-works?! I look to the day when my Cornish is good enough to translate the Shorter Catechism into it...if someone doesn't get there before me! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Williams To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Justification by works? Surely not. On 7 Sep 2012, at 10:28, Ken MacKinnon wrote: I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at ferintosh.org Mon Sep 10 14:59:22 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:59:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> <661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: <004201cd8f5c$7b9ca8c0$72d5fa40$@ferintosh.org> Yes - as well attested by Paul, if not by James. The (mine) works may be some Consol - ation. An ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of ewan wilson Sent: 08 September 2012 21:12 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig As a calvinist myself, I hasten to reassure you that Justification by self-generated works righteousness is of course impossible. However can the eccentric spelling of the church as reported by Ken be a case of justification by mine-works?! I look to the day when my Cornish is good enough to translate the Shorter Catechism into it...if someone doesn't get there before me! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Williams To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Justification by works? Surely not. On 7 Sep 2012, at 10:28, Ken MacKinnon wrote: I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) _____ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5253 - Release Date: 09/06/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at ferintosh.org Mon Sep 10 15:16:49 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:16:49 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryFor Craig In-Reply-To: References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org> <000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <004c01cd8f5e$eb477900$c1d66b00$@ferintosh.org> Ewan, Gairm ended with a sudden bang with issue no 200, after a half-century. It did provoke a successor: GATH. This was initially edited by Donald Meek, and then by Richard Cox, but now after about nine issues seems to have faded from the scene, more's the pity. This thread had also better end with a bang because it is getting too long - and is off-topic! An ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of ewan wilson Sent: 07 September 2012 21:17 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryFor Craig Hi, Ken! I'm sure that Wesley would have insisted the presence of the interposed 'h' in the Methodist church name would have been by grace through faith..though the Calvinists might point out if it was down to nearby mine works, it must have been by works, whatever Wesley may have said! By the way, Ken MacDonald dropped by recently and told me about the arrangements for Derick Thomson's funeral. Sounds a bit chaotic. Ken told only a good week or so after his death, and then landed with trying to sort something out. Turns out Derick had a cousin who's also a Kirk minister ( chaplain on the oil rigs) so they both shared in conducting the services. I hadn't realised one of Derick's sons had died, the one who sort of repped for Gairm. I mentioned the folding up of Gairm as something quite sad for Gaelic but Ken didn't really take us up on it. I get the impression Derick ran it very much as his personal, one man fiefdom and so it just faded with nobody really groomed to take up the mantle. The obituaries for Derick that I've seen were all a bit 'impersonal' and very much on his influence on and involvement with the Gaelic 'renaissance'. As to the character of the man, any personal anecdotes, warm reminiscences, there was a sad lack of them. His main involvement with Cornish was some disgruntlement he let be known when he thought his work was being mimicked in Cornish verse! He had quite an expert grasp of middle Welsh language and literature and I think he contributed to the course in mediaeval/early modern Cornish that was offered as a Paper at Honours level until Donald Howells retired. I lamented contraction of options at Glasgow ( all the Brythonic courses are now gone) to Ken MacDonald but again he didn't seem too interested. With his retirement I think he concentrated his energies more on his Christian ministry in the Kirk. Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name QueryFor Craig A gowetha, The Methodist Church at Chy-an-Gweal (St Ives) mysteriously inserts an "h" after the "w". I wonder whether there is any justification (whether by grace, faith or works) for that intrusive "h"? - An ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill Sent: 06 September 2012 19:04 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Fw: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig Well, there are places with Gweal in their name: Gwealcarn, Towednack; Chy an Gweal, St Ives, to name just two, but there's no place called Gweal (as a simplex element), apart from Gweal, Scilly, which is a contraction of *gwydh-yel, "tree-grown" (it's far from being that now, but probably was in antiquity). I must admit, I've never heard of the book or its author. Craig On 6 Gwn 2012, at 18:46, ewan wilson wrote: Think this went the wrong way and should have come here! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: ewan wilson To: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 6:43 PM Subject: Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig One does come across Cornish in the most peculiar places! I have been reading Wheel Fortune, a 'suspense thriller' written by a Karen Campbell and published by Wm. Collins&Sons back in 1973. The title's a play on the word 'Wheal', as it refers to a presumably fictitious Cornish tin mine somewhere on the Penwith Peninsula. Anyway, Miss Campbell obviously knew her UC as she has one old Cornish woman welcome back her young friend with the greeting: ' Da yu genef agas gweles.' This young woman, having been raised in Cornwall, recalls at a later stage in the story some Cornish she knew: 'Byth dorn rever dhe'n tavas re hyr.' At a crucial point in the action she is lured to the Minack Theatre and she writes: ' The direct route from Sr Edzell's to Minack is via St Buryan and Gweal- but I took the roundabout devious way on the unmade roads over the moor.' Now, I think St Edzell's is supposed to be either St Ives or Penzance but I cannot work out if there actually is a 'Gweal' around the Penwith Peninsula. If not, i'm baffled why she should mention an actual spot like St Buryan yet ficionalise a 'Gweal'! Craig- any ideas? I know next to nothing about this author, save that she penned a few 'suspense' novels in the early 70s and dedicated one to a 'Catherine Campbell McNeill of Kilchoman', presumably a relative and obviously Scottish as the name had hinted. I am left fascinated about how she came to know at least a working smattering of UC!!! Sorry this is a bit off topic but I thought Craig'd be worth while consulting and you'd all like to know the unlikely reach of Cornish! Ewan. _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5252 - Release Date: 09/06/12 _____ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5253 - Release Date: 09/06/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 18:45:20 2012 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:45:20 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org> <661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: The Shorter Catechism was translated into Gaelic and published in 1659. It would not be difficult to translate into Cornish, because the language is dignified, clear and simple: Q. What is the chief end of man? A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever. Q. Pandr'yw ch?ff towl mab den? G. Ch?ff towl mab den yw gordhya Duw ha'y enjoya bys vycken. Or if one doesn't like Tregear's enjoya (which is attested twice) one could say: ha kemeres plesour ino bys vycken. Nicholas On 8 Sep 2012, at 21:12, ewan wilson wrote: > I look to the day when my Cornish is good enough to translate the Shorter Catechism into it...if someone doesn't get there before me! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 10 20:54:32 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:54:32 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org><661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: <3AB25B418C1B495D83FA71DE5ACBC69A@863ab83586db4db> Excellent to see the Shorter Catechism 'kick-started' ! Now to the second Q/A! I know the Scottish Gaelic version very well. I also have a Welsh version, done by Euros Wyn Jones ( of Amanford?) and financed by late Free Church of Scotland friends in Ayr. Personally, I think the Cornish one here superior- but then, Cornish has a distinctive charm all its own . And I rather like enjoya ! Regards, Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Williams To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig The Shorter Catechism was translated into Gaelic and published in 1659. It would not be difficult to translate into Cornish, because the language is dignified, clear and simple: Q. What is the chief end of man? A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever. Q. Pandr'yw ch?ff towl mab den? G. Ch?ff towl mab den yw gordhya Duw ha'y enjoya bys vycken. Or if one doesn't like Tregear's enjoya (which is attested twice) one could say: ha kemeres plesour ino bys vycken. Nicholas On 8 Sep 2012, at 21:12, ewan wilson wrote: I look to the day when my Cornish is good enough to translate the Shorter Catechism into it...if someone doesn't get there before me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 20:56:22 2012 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:56:22 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish in a Thriller! & Place Name Query For Craig In-Reply-To: <3AB25B418C1B495D83FA71DE5ACBC69A@863ab83586db4db> References: <3B7E28073F674847AB052D18D9EF818B@863ab83586db4db><7982A8A3-FFDE-4C9A-99A3-1D639322C78C@agantavas.org><000c01cd8cdb$312afe00$9380fa00$@ferintosh.org><661FD1F174A04AC28087767071FC7F18@863ab83586db4db> <3AB25B418C1B495D83FA71DE5ACBC69A@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: This is perhaps not literal enough: Q.2 Pana rewl a ros Duw dhyn dhe dhysqwedhes an fordh ewn may hyllyn y wordhya ha?y enjoya? G. Ger Duw, kefys in scryptours an Testament Coth ha?n Testament Nowyth, yw an udn rewl dhe dhysqwedhes dhyn an fordh ewn dh?y wordhya ha?y enjoya ev. Nicholas On 10 Sep 2012, at 20:54, ewan wilson wrote: > Now to the second Q/A! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 09:46:28 2012 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 09:46:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> References: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Message-ID: This message from Jenefer Lowe contains the expression war'n wiasva 'on the website'. Can anyone tell me what is the warrant for war'n as an abbreviated form of w?r an? In the texts warn without an apostrophe occurs of course in such forms as dek-warn-ugans y vos gures OM 960 a thek-warn-ugans sterlyn PC 1554 deag warn iggans NBoson There warn is a variant of war used before ugans. It is not a contraction of w?r an 'on the'. I have searched for war'n, warn, uar'n 'on the' in traditional Cornish and have been unable to find any examples. Where did *w?r'n originate? It seems a bit like Nance's dhe 'at' of places. Unwarranted but prevalent nonetheless. Nicholas On 14 Sep 2012, at 16:05, Lowe Jenefer wrote: > Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe?n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war?n wiasva lemmyn. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Sat Sep 15 11:02:44 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:02:44 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site In-Reply-To: References: <73DD01AC-7C5C-47F8-B0E3-87D0D0482075@spyrys.org><9DF67C1D-AB00-47B2-999B-D5BCAE271528@ryan-prohaska.com><54B3B322-8962-4545-8D79-213E3DE388BA@ryan-prohaska.com><00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A931585B@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <81D68CAD-66FC-411A-A6FE-50AA89AB0F07@spyrys.org> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A931585F@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <51EF90D8-C094-4F0C-BE4B-E5811F7422E1@gmail.com> <94A9F335-3319-4E4A-B1A2-E7542E9B0938@ryan-prohaska.com> <5EA59D10-35D1-4C86-BE94-98C337E98335@ryan-prohaska.com> Message-ID: <3B95AF17-DE42-4887-830E-0E1C05983492@evertype.com> On 9 Aug 2012, at 21:26, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > Can I remind everyone that the Review is just 12 months away. We are running out of time, and have have formulated no meaningful strategy for it. > > I suggest that concentrate on this, and I also believe that it should be done on a closed list. At your request and the request of some others the UdnFormScrefys list will be re-opened shortly for this purpose. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From ken at ferintosh.org Sat Sep 15 12:49:48 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:49:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Message-ID: <001701cd9338$35e823b0$a1b86b10$@ferintosh.org> A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma - nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y'n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y'n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe'n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war'n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward - it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don't forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at spyrys.org Sat Sep 15 15:28:30 2012 From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:28:30 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <001701cd9338$35e823b0$a1b86b10$@ferintosh.org> References: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <001701cd9338$35e823b0$a1b86b10$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <2645040B-8A45-417C-B52C-82379B9EA6FE@spyrys.org> Agan Tavas has one member on the board. On 15 Gwn 2012, at 12:49, Ken MacKinnon wrote: > A gowetha, > > The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review > group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language > movement each of these names represents? > > - an ken Ken > > Prof Ken MacKinnon, > Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, > The Black Isle, by Dingwall, > Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK > Tel: 01349 ? 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org > > > Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed > > Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel > eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re > ombrofyas rag an ober ma ? nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an > Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw > pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y?n argerdh yn un profya aga > thybyansow hag omjunnya y?n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. > > Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe?n argerdh ha formow dhe worra > yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war?n wiasva lemmyn. > > We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been > appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who > put themselves forward ? it was not an easy task for the Partnership > Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that > all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the > process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions > during the next twelve months. > > Don?t forget that details of the process and forms for submission of > topics for consideration are now on the website. > > > Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board > > Jori Ansell > > Vanessa Beeman (Chair) > > Albert Bock > > Neil Kennedy > > Maureen Pierce > > Polin Prys > > Esme Tackley > > This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and > may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take > no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; > please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. > Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or > monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need > to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the > Environmental Information Regulations 2004. > Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The > Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. > ________________________________________ > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: > 09/14/12 > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net Ray Chubb Portreth Kernow Agan Tavas web site: www.agantavas.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From njawilliams at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:06:45 2012 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:06:45 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A931599A@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> References: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A931599A@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Message-ID: <05A128D2-4EBF-4D97-B907-78757BBE4E57@gmail.com> Since dhe'n (then) and y'n (yn, in) are attested, there is good reason to use them in the revived language. I cannot find any example of war'n (or warn) for war an in Tregear. I have found the following instances of war an written as two words in Tregear?s homilies, however, and in Sacrament an Alter. war an ethen in eyer TH 2 rag agys exortya why lymmyn war an dyweth TH 5 nages vn den gwyrryan war an nore TH 8 suffrys (vel scollis) war an growspren TH 11 myrnans war an growsse TH 16 war an diweth in y pistill TH 18 kyffrys war an da han drog TH 22 haga thynvyn glaw war an Just ha war an vniust TH 22 war an re ew contrary in aga disposision TH 24a ow screffa war an pempas chapter a mathew TH 27a Cyta war an meneth TH 31a apparantly war an scriptur benegas, TH 32a war an fondacion an abosteleth TH 33 an pen war an egglos TH 37a war an Emporowre Theodosius TH 39 omma war an bys TH 41 eff omma war an bys TH 41a ha war an garrak ma me a vyn byldya ow egglos TH 44 pan a dra a rellow why kylmy war an nore TH 44a war an vi-as chapter an pistlis a S paull then Romains TH 45 ha war an power ma eff a rug buldya y egglos TH 45a ha war an garrak ma me a vyn buldya ow egglos TH 45a war an succession an epscobow TH 48a ha war an heresy na TH 49a meras war an pow ha gwlasow TH 49a ha war an bobyll vs in captiuite TH 49a war an terribill sentens a S paule TH 51a in kepar maner war an aucthors an scripture TH 51a myrnans war an growse TH 54a war an vi chaptur a S Johan TH 57 war an vi a Johan TH 57 ow groundia aga honyn war an gyrryow agan Savyour Jhesu crist TH 57a in y exposition gwris war an 99 psalme TH 58 fatla ew sittis onne Dew war an alter benegas SA 65a Onne a thew ew sittis war an alter SA 65a. Since there does not appear to be any example of war?n, warn ?on the? anywhere, as far as I can see, perhaps it might be wiser not to use such a form. Nicholas On 17 Sep 2012, at 11:16, Lowe Jenefer wrote: > The only reference we can find is in Ken George?s dictionary where he cites Tregear, war n. Might it simply have spread from the use of elision with other prepositions e.g. dhe?n, y?n, where it is clearly because of the proximity of two vowels? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Mon Sep 17 13:07:01 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:07:01 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <05A128D2-4EBF-4D97-B907-78757BBE4E57@gmail.com> References: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A931599A@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <05A128D2-4EBF-4D97-B907-78757BBE4E57@gmail.com> Message-ID: Then we have place-name evidence. TYWARNHAYLE has about 20 examples of from 960 AD onwards. Here the H of seems to be be treated as a pseudo-vowel, much like English "an historic occasion". Craig On 17 Gwn 2012, at 12:06, Nicholas Williams wrote: > Since dhe'n (then) and y'n (yn, in) are attested, there is good > reason to use them in the revived language. > I cannot find any example of war'n (or warn) for war an in Tregear. > I have found the following instances of war an written as two words > in Tregear?s homilies, however, and in Sacrament an Alter. > > war an ethen in eyer TH 2 > rag agys exortya why lymmyn war an dyweth TH 5 > nages vn den gwyrryan war an nore TH 8 > suffrys (vel scollis) war an growspren TH 11 > myrnans war an growsse TH 16 > war an diweth in y pistill TH 18 > kyffrys war an da han drog TH 22 > haga thynvyn glaw war an Just ha war an vniust TH 22 > war an re ew contrary in aga disposision TH 24a > ow screffa war an pempas chapter a mathew TH 27a > Cyta war an meneth TH 31a > apparantly war an scriptur benegas, TH 32a > war an fondacion an abosteleth TH 33 > an pen war an egglos TH 37a > war an Emporowre Theodosius TH 39 > omma war an bys TH 41 > eff omma war an bys TH 41a > ha war an garrak ma me a vyn byldya ow egglos TH 44 > pan a dra a rellow why kylmy war an nore TH 44a > war an vi-as chapter an pistlis a S paull then Romains TH 45 > ha war an power ma eff a rug buldya y egglos TH 45a > ha war an garrak ma me a vyn buldya ow egglos TH 45a > war an succession an epscobow TH 48a > ha war an heresy na TH 49a > meras war an pow ha gwlasow TH 49a > ha war an bobyll vs in captiuite TH 49a > war an terribill sentens a S paule TH 51a > in kepar maner war an aucthors an scripture TH 51a > myrnans war an growse TH 54a > war an vi chaptur a S Johan TH 57 > war an vi a Johan TH 57 > ow groundia aga honyn war an gyrryow agan Savyour Jhesu crist TH 57a > in y exposition gwris war an 99 psalme TH 58 > fatla ew sittis onne Dew war an alter benegas SA 65a > Onne a thew ew sittis war an alter SA 65a. > > Since there does not appear to be any example of war?n, warn ?on > the? anywhere, as far as I can see, perhaps it might be wiser not to > use such a form. > > Nicholas > > On 17 Sep 2012, at 11:16, Lowe Jenefer wrote: > >> The only reference we can find is in Ken George?s dictionary where >> he cites Tregear, war n. Might it simply have spread from the use >> of elision with other prepositions e.g. dhe?n, y?n, where it is >> clearly because of the proximity of two vowels? > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Mon Sep 17 13:59:03 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:59:03 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <05A128D2-4EBF-4D97-B907-78757BBE4E57@gmail.com> References: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315988@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A931599A@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <05A128D2-4EBF-4D97-B907-78757BBE4E57@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 17 Sep 2012, at 12:06, Nicholas Williams wrote: > I cannot find any example of war'n (or warn) for war an in Tregear. I have found the following instances of war an written as two words in Tregear?s homilies, however, and in Sacrament an Alter. > > in y exposition gwris war an 99 psalme TH 58 > fatla ew sittis onne Dew war an alter benegas SA 65a > Onne a thew ew sittis war an alter SA 65a. > > Since there does not appear to be any example of war?n, warn ?on the? anywhere, as far as I can see, perhaps it might be wiser not to use such a form. For what it is worth, George's dictionary cites SA 60v as the source for "war n". In Bice's edition the relevant page reads: "bus e thibbry, an moygha tra a pub tra oll vs war (a)n nore ew agen saviour Jesus Christ". There are a number of letters parenthesized by Bice in that paragraph and the parentheses indicate damage or defectiveness in the manuscript, not orthographic practice. > On 17 Sep 2012, at 11:16, Lowe Jenefer wrote: > >> The only reference we can find is in Ken George?s dictionary where he cites Tregear, war n. Might it simply have spread from the use of elision with other prepositions e.g. dhe?n, y?n, where it is clearly because of the proximity of two vowels? The preposition "w?r" does not end in a vowel. This is another example of one of George's dictionaries proving unreliable. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From kernuack at aol.com Mon Sep 17 19:14:24 2012 From: kernuack at aol.com (Mina Dresser) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review Message-ID: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 ? 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma ? nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y?n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y?n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe?n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war?n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward ? it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don?t forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at ferintosh.org Tue Sep 18 16:00:25 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:00:25 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01cd95ae$5d6942c0$183bc840$@ferintosh.org> Meur ras dhys, Mina. This is much as I surmised. I too have no idea who Esme is. Could be a man or a woman. (woman definitely if Esmee.) >From those whom I know it does seem heavily weighted towards Kemmyn ? and even more so for those who want SWF to be more Kemmyn-like than Kemmyn-lite. If they are finding a chair from amongst their number ? perhaps Esme is that person. In any event it will need the judgement of Solomon to sort this out. What is needed above all are robust and clear rules, and a strong chair to keep to them. The team also need to have recourse to outside specialists. Gans gorhemmynadow ? an ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 ? 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma ? nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y?n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y?n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe?n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war?n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward ? it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don?t forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5274 - Release Date: 09/17/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk Tue Sep 18 17:21:45 2012 From: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk (Lowe Jenefer) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:21:45 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Dear all, I feel I have to comment on the email sent by Mina as it does not reflect my experience in working with the people mentioned at all. The Cornish language community has an unfortunate tendency to cling to preconceptions and labels which are often without foundation and serve only to prolong and promote divisions, which is regrettable. I am not commenting on the choice of members for the Review Board as this was a matter for the Management Board, but am concerned to note our experience. Jori has served as head of the translation group for a few years working firstly across all orthographies and latterly with the SWF which has given him an excellent knowledge of the advantages and problems found by those from all backgrounds in using it. From the days of leading the strategy group onwards we have found him very fair in terms of his attitude to other orthographies. Neil remains committed to Modern Cornish but equally has worked with the SWF and is particularly keen to ensure that the SWF is capable of use by Modern Cornish speakers. Maureen and Polin have both published in SWF and used it in teaching. I have no doubt that everyone, given a free choice, would be inclined to take the SWF nearer to the orthographic form they have mainly used and prefer, but it does not follow that that will cloud their judgement or render them incapable of seeing things from other points of view. Neil and Polin have both worked with the SWF dictionary board as well. Esme comes originally from a Unified background, but is a member of An Kylgh Kernewek and uses the SWF for teaching. What backgrounds people are from does not necessarily affect their ability to be fair and weigh evidence and support appropriately and it is vastly unfair to pre-judge and categorise in this way. If anyone has an issue with the way in which the Board has worked once in operation, then a complaint may legitimately be raised at that point. Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow ________________________________ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma - nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y'n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y'n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe'n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war'n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward - it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don't forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5276 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk Wed Sep 19 10:03:59 2012 From: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk (Lowe Jenefer) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:03:59 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <000c01cd95ae$5d6942c0$183bc840$@ferintosh.org> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <000c01cd95ae$5d6942c0$183bc840$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B3@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Please note that the Chair for the Review Board is Vanessa Beeman. Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow ________________________________ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Ken MacKinnon Sent: 18 September 2012 16:00 To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review Meur ras dhys, Mina. This is much as I surmised. I too have no idea who Esme is. Could be a man or a woman. (woman definitely if Esmee.) >From those whom I know it does seem heavily weighted towards Kemmyn - and even more so for those who want SWF to be more Kemmyn-like than Kemmyn-lite. If they are finding a chair from amongst their number - perhaps Esme is that person. In any event it will need the judgement of Solomon to sort this out. What is needed above all are robust and clear rules, and a strong chair to keep to them. The team also need to have recourse to outside specialists. Gans gorhemmynadow - an ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma - nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y'n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y'n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe'n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war'n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward - it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don't forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5274 - Release Date: 09/17/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5276 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From ken at ferintosh.org Wed Sep 19 10:25:10 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:25:10 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Message-ID: <003601cd9648$aad5ea50$0081bef0$@ferintosh.org> Meur ras dhysso-jy, Jenefer. This is most helpful, and provides very useful and re-assuring information. I am due to attend British & Irish Council events in Cardiff 8-9 Nov - and note you are due to attend likewise. We may have opportunity for further discussion. Will Mike Tresidder be coming as well? Viajow saw, ha sowena y'n ober - Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Lowe Jenefer Sent: 18 September 2012 17:22 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review Dear all, I feel I have to comment on the email sent by Mina as it does not reflect my experience in working with the people mentioned at all. The Cornish language community has an unfortunate tendency to cling to preconceptions and labels which are often without foundation and serve only to prolong and promote divisions, which is regrettable. I am not commenting on the choice of members for the Review Board as this was a matter for the Management Board, but am concerned to note our experience. Jori has served as head of the translation group for a few years working firstly across all orthographies and latterly with the SWF which has given him an excellent knowledge of the advantages and problems found by those from all backgrounds in using it. From the days of leading the strategy group onwards we have found him very fair in terms of his attitude to other orthographies. Neil remains committed to Modern Cornish but equally has worked with the SWF and is particularly keen to ensure that the SWF is capable of use by Modern Cornish speakers. Maureen and Polin have both published in SWF and used it in teaching. I have no doubt that everyone, given a free choice, would be inclined to take the SWF nearer to the orthographic form they have mainly used and prefer, but it does not follow that that will cloud their judgement or render them incapable of seeing things from other points of view. Neil and Polin have both worked with the SWF dictionary board as well. Esme comes originally from a Unified background, but is a member of An Kylgh Kernewek and uses the SWF for teaching. What backgrounds people are from does not necessarily affect their ability to be fair and weigh evidence and support appropriately and it is vastly unfair to pre-judge and categorise in this way. If anyone has an issue with the way in which the Board has worked once in operation, then a complaint may legitimately be raised at that point. Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow _____ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma - nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y'n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y'n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe'n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war'n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward - it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don't forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5275 - Release Date: 09/18/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5276 bytes Desc: not available URL: From craig at agantavas.org Wed Sep 19 10:47:00 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:47:00 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <003601cd9648$aad5ea50$0081bef0$@ferintosh.org> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <003601cd9648$aad5ea50$0081bef0$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <060C1D78-C096-4630-B3F0-69674512485F@agantavas.org> Vanessa is a very lovely, and deeply caring person, but how strong is she? Although I have been doing my best to work with the SWF, it's far from perfect. The problems arose because of (in my view) poor Chairmanship of the AHG, and the overturning of the original brief. The brief from the Commission, applauded by almost everyone at the Tremough presentation, was that the SWF was to be based on KD, with KS input. That did not happen, once doors were closed at Treyarnon. Although the KD designers were there, the KS architects were excluded from attendance. KK, UC, UCR and other orthographies were to play no significant role, other than to inform. But what happened was that KD and KS were, to all intents and purposes, pushed aside. Trond caved under pressure, the AHG was not fairly balanced, and KK became the principal default model. I'd like to say that the Review Board will result in an improved and more inclusive SWF - and remember that the traditional graph option, along with those who refer to use it, have been utterly ignored in the 4 years since Treyarnon - but I fear it will not. I'm not convinced that any dissatisfaction with the Board's performance will bear fruit. After all, we have been told that the Review itself will be the final word. Of course, the proof of the pudding will not be visible until after the Review has taken place. My fears may be unjustified. Or they may not. Craig On 19 Gwn 2012, at 10:25, Ken MacKinnon wrote: > Meur ras dhysso-jy, Jenefer. > > This is most helpful, and provides very useful and re-assuring > information. > > I am due to attend British & Irish Council events in Cardiff 8-9 Nov > ? and note you are due to attend likewise. We may have opportunity > for further discussion. Will Mike Tresidder be coming as well? > > Viajow saw, ha sowena y?n ober - Ken > > From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net > ] On Behalf Of Lowe Jenefer > Sent: 18 September 2012 17:22 > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review > > Dear all, > I feel I have to comment on the email sent by Mina as it does not > reflect my experience in working with the people mentioned at all. > The Cornish language community has an unfortunate tendency to cling > to preconceptions and labels which are often without foundation and > serve only to prolong and promote divisions, which is regrettable. > I am not commenting on the choice of members for the Review Board as > this was a matter for the Management Board, but am concerned to note > our experience. Jori has served as head of the translation group > for a few years working firstly across all orthographies and > latterly with the SWF which has given him an excellent knowledge of > the advantages and problems found by those from all backgrounds in > using it. From the days of leading the strategy group onwards we > have found him very fair in terms of his attitude to other > orthographies. Neil remains committed to Modern Cornish but equally > has worked with the SWF and is particularly keen to ensure that the > SWF is capable of use by Modern Cornish speakers. Maureen and Polin > have both published in SWF and used it in teaching. I have no doubt > that everyone, given a free choice, would be inclined to take the > SWF nearer to the orthographic form they have mainly used and > prefer, but it does not follow that that will cloud their judgement > or render them incapable of seeing things from other points of view. > Neil and Polin have both worked with the SWF dictionary board as > well. Esme comes originally from a Unified background, but is a > member of An Kylgh Kernewek and uses the SWF for teaching. > What backgrounds people are from does not necessarily affect their > ability to be fair and weigh evidence and support appropriately and > it is vastly unfair to pre-judge and categorise in this way. If > anyone has an issue with the way in which the Board has worked once > in operation, then a complaint may legitimately be raised at that > point. > > Jenefer Lowe > Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya > Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek > Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow > Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie > County Hall / Lys Kernow > Truro > TR1 3AY > > internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 > tel: / pell: 01872 323465 > email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk > website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk > > Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! > @magakernow > > Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! > www.facebook.com/magakernow > > The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for > Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. > Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran > rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow > > From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net > ] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser > Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 > To: spellyans at kernowek.net > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review > > In reply to Ken's email. > Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course > SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin > Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn > speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a > few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though > they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to > be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not > even heard her name.Hope that helps. > > This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please > what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is > anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over > again, with no "real" experts on the committee. > > I suggest that something be done about the composition of this > board. Regards Mina > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken MacKinnon > To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' > Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review > > A gowetha, > > The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review > group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language > movement each of these names represents? > > - an ken Ken > > Prof Ken MacKinnon, > Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, > The Black Isle, by Dingwall, > Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK > Tel: 01349 ? 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org > > > Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed > > Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel > eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re > ombrofyas rag an ober ma ? nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an > Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw > pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y?n argerdh yn un profya aga > thybyansow hag omjunnya y?n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. > > Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe?n argerdh ha formow dhe worra > yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war?n wiasva lemmyn. > > We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been > appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who > put themselves forward ? it was not an easy task for the Partnership > Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that > all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the > process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions > during the next twelve months. > > Don?t forget that details of the process and forms for submission of > topics for consideration are now on the website. > > > Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board > > Jori Ansell > > Vanessa Beeman (Chair) > > Albert Bock > > Neil Kennedy > > Maureen Pierce > > Polin Prys > > Esme Tackley > > This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and > may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take > no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; > please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. > Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or > monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need > to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the > Environmental Information Regulations 2004. > Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to > ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The > Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. > ________________________________________ > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: > 09/14/12 > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5275 - Release Date: > 09/18/12 > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk Wed Sep 19 10:51:13 2012 From: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk (Lowe Jenefer) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:51:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <003601cd9648$aad5ea50$0081bef0$@ferintosh.org> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com><00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <003601cd9648$aad5ea50$0081bef0$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B4@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Hi Ken, Yes he will, and a couple of others involved specifically with pre-school provision. We will look forward to seeing you there. Yn lel, Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow ________________________________ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Ken MacKinnon Sent: 19 September 2012 10:25 To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review Meur ras dhysso-jy, Jenefer. This is most helpful, and provides very useful and re-assuring information. I am due to attend British & Irish Council events in Cardiff 8-9 Nov - and note you are due to attend likewise. We may have opportunity for further discussion. Will Mike Tresidder be coming as well? Viajow saw, ha sowena y'n ober - Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Lowe Jenefer Sent: 18 September 2012 17:22 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review Dear all, I feel I have to comment on the email sent by Mina as it does not reflect my experience in working with the people mentioned at all. The Cornish language community has an unfortunate tendency to cling to preconceptions and labels which are often without foundation and serve only to prolong and promote divisions, which is regrettable. I am not commenting on the choice of members for the Review Board as this was a matter for the Management Board, but am concerned to note our experience. Jori has served as head of the translation group for a few years working firstly across all orthographies and latterly with the SWF which has given him an excellent knowledge of the advantages and problems found by those from all backgrounds in using it. From the days of leading the strategy group onwards we have found him very fair in terms of his attitude to other orthographies. Neil remains committed to Modern Cornish but equally has worked with the SWF and is particularly keen to ensure that the SWF is capable of use by Modern Cornish speakers. Maureen and Polin have both published in SWF and used it in teaching. I have no doubt that everyone, given a free choice, would be inclined to take the SWF nearer to the orthographic form they have mainly used and prefer, but it does not follow that that will cloud their judgement or render them incapable of seeing things from other points of view. Neil and Polin have both worked with the SWF dictionary board as well. Esme comes originally from a Unified background, but is a member of An Kylgh Kernewek and uses the SWF for teaching. What backgrounds people are from does not necessarily affect their ability to be fair and weigh evidence and support appropriately and it is vastly unfair to pre-judge and categorise in this way. If anyone has an issue with the way in which the Board has worked once in operation, then a complaint may legitimately be raised at that point. Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow ________________________________ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma - nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y'n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y'n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe'n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war'n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward - it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don't forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5275 - Release Date: 09/18/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5276 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From ken at ferintosh.org Wed Sep 19 10:52:53 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:52:53 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B3@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <000c01cd95ae$5d6942c0$183bc840$@ferintosh.org> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B3@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Message-ID: <000f01cd964c$8a699ab0$9f3cd010$@ferintosh.org> Jenefer hag oll, I think Vanessa enjoys wide respect amongst all Kernewegoryon. Personally I have every confidence and I am sure, this is widely shared. - Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Lowe Jenefer Sent: 19 September 2012 10:04 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review Please note that the Chair for the Review Board is Vanessa Beeman. Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow _____ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Ken MacKinnon Sent: 18 September 2012 16:00 To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review Meur ras dhys, Mina. This is much as I surmised. I too have no idea who Esme is. Could be a man or a woman. (woman definitely if Esmee.) >From those whom I know it does seem heavily weighted towards Kemmyn - and even more so for those who want SWF to be more Kemmyn-like than Kemmyn-lite. If they are finding a chair from amongst their number - perhaps Esme is that person. In any event it will need the judgement of Solomon to sort this out. What is needed above all are robust and clear rules, and a strong chair to keep to them. The team also need to have recourse to outside specialists. Gans gorhemmynadow - an ken Ken From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Mina Dresser Sent: 17 September 2012 19:14 To: spellyans at kernowek.net Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review In reply to Ken's email. Vanessa was originally a 'unified' speaker, Albert B is of course SWF, Neil was 'Modern' Cornish. Jory a diehard Kemmyn speaker. Polin Prys and particularly Maureen Pierce are both 'fanatic' kemmyn speakers and very very anti Modern. Both ladies told me just a few weeks ago that they were not in favour of the SWF even though they had to support it, and I gathered they would prefer the SWF to be further inclined towards Kemmyn. I don't know Esme - have not even heard her name.Hope that helps. This review board is very light weight. Can someone explain please what its job will be. Apart from Albert and possibly Neil, no one is anywhere close to being a linguist. It will be Treyarnon all over again, with no "real" experts on the committee. I suggest that something be done about the composition of this board. Regards Mina -----Original Message----- From: Ken MacKinnon To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' Sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:50 Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF Review A gowetha, The message below from Jenefer gives details of the SWF review group. Can you identify which aspects of the Cornish language movement each of these names represents? - an ken Ken Prof Ken MacKinnon, Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh, The Black Isle, by Dingwall, Ross-shire IV7 8HX Scotland /UK Tel: 01349 - 863460 E-mail: ken at ferintosh.org Kesva Dhaswel an FSS henwys / SWF Review Board Appointed Pur dha yw genen deklarya henwyn an ombroforyon re beu dewisys avel eseli Kesva Dhaswel an FSS. Ny a wor grassow meur dhe bubonan nep re ombrofyas rag an ober ma - nyns o es rag Kesva Dhyghtya an Keskowethyans ervira yntra kemmys a bobel da. Agan govenek yw pubonan a wrug ombrofya dhe gemeres ran y'n argerdh yn un profya aga thybyansow hag omjunnya y'n keskowsow dres an vledhen nessa. Na wreugh ankevi bos kedhlow adro dhe'n argerdh ha formow dhe worra yn rag testennow ha tybyansow war'n wiasva lemmyn. We are very pleased to announce the names of those who have been appointd to the SWF Review Board. We are very grateful to all who put themselves forward - it was not an easy task for the Partnership Board to decide from so many excellent applications. We hope that all those who applied will be able to play a full part in the process through offering their ideas and joining in the discussions during the next twelve months. Don't forget that details of the process and forms for submission of topics for consideration are now on the website. Kesva Dhaswel an FSS / SWF Review Board Jori Ansell Vanessa Beeman (Chair) Albert Bock Neil Kennedy Maureen Pierce Polin Prys Esme Tackley This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. ________________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5268 - Release Date: 09/14/12 _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5274 - Release Date: 09/17/12 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5276 - Release Date: 09/18/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5276 bytes Desc: not available URL: From everson at evertype.com Wed Sep 19 12:22:48 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:22:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> Message-ID: <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> On 18 Sep 2012, at 17:21, Lowe Jenefer wrote: > I have no doubt that everyone, given a free choice, would be inclined to take the SWF nearer to the orthographic form they have mainly used and prefer, but it does not follow that that will cloud their judgement or render them incapable of seeing things from other points of view. I think I can speak for most people on the Spellyans list in saying that our concern is that there is an orthography which accurately represents the phonology of Revived Cornish. One of the biggest problems with the SWF is that it tries to support two diametrically-opposed phonologies, one of which isn't actually in use. The KS project has **not** been an attempt to "take the SWF nearer" to UC or UCR or RLC (the orthographic form that we have mainly used and preferred), but rather to plug the leaks in the SWF (1) insofar as it does not represent the phonology of the Revived Language and (2) insofar as it offers "Trad graph" forms which are not actually Trad. > What backgrounds people are from does not necessarily affect their ability to be fair and weigh evidence and support appropriately and it is vastly unfair to pre-judge and categorise in this way. The lack of linguistic training in all but two of the members of the Review Board is a concern for some people (who have mentioned it to me). Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From christian.semmens at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:02:41 2012 From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:02:41 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: Dear Jenefer, I would also like to echo the concerns raised by Craig and Michael, and sadly I do not feel reassured by what you say about the make-up of the committee I would just like to speculate a little (as is my wont). In future, if the SWF does not provide complete parity between the KK and traditional forms then there is no value in using the SWF if you use the traditional graphs. In fact I would go further and say that it would be thoroughly detrimental to traditional Cornish resulting in, at best, a slow death sentence for the traditional forms. That would leave the traditional groups only two options, stay and die or walk away from the SWF and fight their corners again. If the traditional groups are forced to walk away then, after all the expense and effort, nothing will have been gained, except for two more orthographies to add to the existing surfeit. There will then be potentially five competing orthographies in a new war. KK, SWF, UC/R, KS and Modern. Something to make the KK majority on the review committee smile, as it allows them to divide and conquer, rehabilitating KK as potentially the largest single faction albeit with losses to the new SWF. They would, by rendering the SWF useless as a vehicle for traditional Cornish, be able to paint the traditional groups as being the villains of the piece, blaming them for the collapse of the SWF process. Something they would be able to engineer with their built in majorities on the AHG and Review boards. I feel distinctly gloomy at this stage of the proceedings and the structure of the committee gives me little confidence that what I have written above is very far from what we will see after the review is completed. I hope I am wrong. Christian From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 21:16:56 2012 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:16:56 -0500 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: On 19 September 2012 10:02, Christian Semmens wrote: > Dear Jenefer, > > I would also like to echo the concerns raised by Craig and Michael, > and sadly I do not feel reassured by what you say about the make-up of > the committee > > I would just like to speculate a little (as is my wont). > > In future, if the SWF does not provide complete parity between the KK > and traditional forms then there is no value in using the SWF if you > use the traditional graphs. In fact I would go further and say that it > would be thoroughly detrimental to traditional Cornish resulting in, > at best, a slow death sentence for the traditional forms. That would > leave the traditional groups only two options, stay and die or walk > away from the SWF and fight their corners again. Or, better yet, the committee could actually make some of the hard decisions that they ducked last time, allowing us to transcend the whole SWF/k : SWF/t distinction. Here was one idea that got limited play time last time around: ? For hw/wh, use wh ? For kw/qu/qw, use qw ? For k/c before {a o u}, use k ? For k/c before consonants (except w and y), use c This would give kara, gwlaskor, kubmyas, clappya, cria, bethqweth, whela -- all sanctioned to various degrees by the texts, systematic, and logically defensible. ? Distribute i and y in some way that uses mostly y at the ends of words and i mostly elsewhere. There are numerous possible ways of doing this, which we have talked over on this list and UdnFormScrefys at length. There is a reason the SWF had to rechristen itself "Standard Written Form" rather than "Single Written Form", which is that it never was a single form. That, to my mind, was the greatest failing of Treyarnon. There should never have been the main/traditional distinction to start with. ~~Owen > If the traditional groups are forced to walk away then, after all the > expense and effort, nothing will have been gained, except for two more > orthographies to add to the existing surfeit. There will then be > potentially five competing orthographies in a new war. KK, SWF, UC/R, > KS and Modern. Something to make the KK majority on the review > committee smile, as it allows them to divide and conquer, > rehabilitating KK as potentially the largest single faction albeit > with losses to the new SWF. > > They would, by rendering the SWF useless as a vehicle for traditional > Cornish, be able to paint the traditional groups as being the villains > of the piece, blaming them for the collapse of the SWF process. > Something they would be able to engineer with their built in > majorities on the AHG and Review boards. > > I feel distinctly gloomy at this stage of the proceedings and the > structure of the committee gives me little confidence that what I have > written above is very far from what we will see after the review is > completed. > > I hope I am wrong. > Christian > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From ajtrim at msn.com Thu Sep 20 00:36:18 2012 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:36:18 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: On 19/09/12 21:16, Owen Cook wrote: > ? For hw/wh, use wh > ? For kw/qu/qw, use qw > ? For k/c before {a o u}, use k > ? For k/c before consonants (except w and y), use c I would add to the list of exceptions ( and ), else: "to ruminate" would be , "a hack" would be , "a hillock" would be . Regards, Andrew J. Trim From ajtrim at msn.com Thu Sep 20 01:27:28 2012 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 01:27:28 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: On 19/09/12 21:16, Owen Cook wrote: > ? Distribute i and y in some way that uses mostly y at the ends of > words and i mostly elsewhere. There are numerous possible ways of > doing this, which we have talked over on this list and UdnFormScrefys > at length. I would use <-y> at the end of most words but I would otherwise use for long and for short. This scheme has snags but it is really simple to grasp. Most words would start with a because most words start with a short vowel, e.g. "in", "is", "to open". Where the vowel is long, it would start with an , e.g. "they", / "corn", "St Ives". The KS / words would become / words. If someone were to write their Cornish without the diaereses, readers would lose the benefit of the vowel markings but at least they would be correctly pronounced. One snag is that an would change to a when an ending is added, and a may change to an (or it may not) when an ending is lost. Also, when changes to a , you may wish to write that . One advantage is that you don't need a circumflex in words like because the would already be long. I would write all diphthongs with , e.g. , , . However, I would write (non-diphthong) vowel digraphs with , e.g. , , , . Regards, Andrew J. Trim From ajtrim at msn.com Thu Sep 20 01:45:54 2012 From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 01:45:54 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: On 19/09/12 21:16, Owen Cook wrote: > There is a reason the SWF had to rechristen itself "Standard Written > Form" rather than "Single Written Form", which is that it never was a > single form. That, to my mind, was the greatest failing of Treyarnon. > There should never have been the main/traditional distinction to start > with. We should have had a Main form and a Late form (both using traditional graphs.) If we wish to include both Middle and Late Cornish, we must have two versions -- so no single form is possible but the variants can be written into a single standard. The name "Standard Written Form" is OK, except that KS uses the word Standard. Regards, Andrew J. Trim From owen.e.cook at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 03:26:15 2012 From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:26:15 -0500 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: On 19 September 2012 19:45, A. J. Trim wrote: > > > On 19/09/12 21:16, Owen Cook wrote: >> >> There is a reason the SWF had to rechristen itself "Standard Written >> Form" rather than "Single Written Form", which is that it never was a >> single form. That, to my mind, was the greatest failing of Treyarnon. >> There should never have been the main/traditional distinction to start >> with. > > > > We should have had a Main form and a Late form (both using traditional > graphs.) I strongly disagree: We should have a Middle and a Late form. (Taking Middle as 'main' is not really acceptable.) And the distinction between Middle and Late Cornish is not absolute. The SWF does an okay job (not a great one) of accommodating both forms with umbrella graphs and regular alternations. You can have a single written form that admits dialect variants (cf. aluminium and aluminum). What I mean by that is that, for example, [d?] is always written as ?j?. In a given word, some speakers will have [d?] and write ?j? while others will have [z] and write ?s?. Same convention, applied differently. > If we wish to include both Middle and Late Cornish, we must have two > versions -- so no single form is possible but the variants can be written > into a single standard. The name "Standard Written Form" is OK, except that > KS uses the word Standard. > > > Regards, > > Andrew J. Trim > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From ray at spyrys.org Thu Sep 20 08:27:42 2012 From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:27:42 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] SWF Review In-Reply-To: References: <8CF631766CB54EA-14AC-750BA@Webmail-d105.sysops.aol.com> <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A93159B0@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> <67BE8E06-F529-4D80-9D9E-B7D5526D1959@evertype.com> Message-ID: <68D05544-718B-49B8-8A87-720297396FBE@spyrys.org> I for one would except this compromise in order to remove the (m/k), (t) distinction. On 19 Gwn 2012, at 21:16, Owen Cook wrote: > Or, better yet, the committee could actually make some of the hard > decisions that they ducked last time, allowing us to transcend the > whole SWF/k : SWF/t distinction. Here was one idea that got limited > play time last time around: > > ? For hw/wh, use wh > ? For kw/qu/qw, use qw > ? For k/c before {a o u}, use k > ? For k/c before consonants (except w and y), use c > > This would give kara, gwlaskor, kubmyas, clappya, cria, bethqweth, > whela -- all sanctioned to various degrees by the texts, systematic, > and logically defensible. Ray Chubb Portreth Kernow Agan Tavas web site: www.agantavas.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Tue Sep 25 16:25:56 2012 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:25:56 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat Message-ID: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? Ol an gwella, Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Tue Sep 25 16:59:13 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:59:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> Message-ID: <3141B1E4-DD85-48C1-9A1E-E695533CD8A4@evertype.com> On 25 Sep 2012, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: > Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? The Welsh Academy dictionary has "het silc" for this. Were they made of silk? I didn't know it. Wikipedia says tt's called a "top hat, beaver hat, high hat, silk hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat or stove pipe hat". They date from the 18th century, so any term will do. Nicholas gives "hot owrlyn" 'silk hat' in his UCR dictionary. I like the idea of "hat chymbla" though. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From craig at agantavas.org Tue Sep 25 17:15:13 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:15:13 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: <3141B1E4-DD85-48C1-9A1E-E695533CD8A4@evertype.com> References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> <3141B1E4-DD85-48C1-9A1E-E695533CD8A4@evertype.com> Message-ID: Hot uhel? Craig On 25 Gwn 2012, at 16:59, Michael Everson wrote: > On 25 Sep 2012, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: > >> Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? > > The Welsh Academy dictionary has "het silc" for this. Were they made > of silk? I didn't know it. Wikipedia says tt's called a "top hat, > beaver hat, high hat, silk hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat or > stove pipe hat". They date from the 18th century, so any term will do. > > Nicholas gives "hot owrlyn" 'silk hat' in his UCR dictionary. > > I like the idea of "hat chymbla" though. > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 25 17:20:50 2012 From: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com (Herbie Blackburn) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:20:50 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com><3141B1E4-DD85-48C1-9A1E-E695533CD8A4@evertype.com> Message-ID: Now that could be a drumming term - hi-hat? > From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans- > bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill > Sent: 25 September 2012 17:15 > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] top hat > > Hot uhel? > >Craig > > On 25 Gwn 2012, at 16:59, Michael Everson wrote: > On 25 Sep 2012, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: > >> Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? > > The Welsh Academy dictionary has "het silc" for this. Were they made > of silk? I didn't know it. Wikipedia says tt's called a "top hat, > beaver hat, high hat, silk hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat or > stove pipe hat". They date from the 18th century, so any term will do. > > Nicholas gives "hot owrlyn" 'silk hat' in his UCR dictionary. > > I like the idea of "hat chymbla" though. > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2441/5290 - Release Date: 09/24/12 From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 25 17:35:57 2012 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Hedley Climo) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:35:57 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> Message-ID: <5F6B72A4-1E3A-439E-87A5-44F3A5B96F1F@yahoo.co.uk> Nicholas's 2006 dictionary offers us the calque: top-hat, topper. hot owrlyn, -ttys owrlyn Although they have been made out of silk "hatters' plush", they have more commonly been made of felted fur or wool, or cotton velour (according to Wikipedia). Alternative English names for it include not only 'silk hat', but also beaver hat (as in the risqu? Irish air, Cock up your beaver!), high hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat, and stove pipe hat. Other languages call it Zylinder Hut (German), Sombrero de copa alta (Spanish), Haut-de-forme (French), and my favourite 'Lum hat' ('lum' is Scots for a chimney). So, in addition to Michael's delightful 'hot chymbla', and Nicholas's 'hot owrlyn', we might try calquing 'hot ughel', 'hot syjan', or 'hot hyrgren'. On 2012 Gwn 25, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: > Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? > Ol an gwella, Eddie Climo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janicelobb at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 17:44:27 2012 From: janicelobb at gmail.com (Janice Lobb) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:44:27 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> Message-ID: In a story I am writing I have been using hat hir (or hot hir) - because I like the alliteration (and I like short words!). Jan On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Jon Mills wrote: > > > Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? > Ol an gwella, > Jon > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > University of Kent > http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Tue Sep 25 17:45:03 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:45:03 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: <5F6B72A4-1E3A-439E-87A5-44F3A5B96F1F@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> <5F6B72A4-1E3A-439E-87A5-44F3A5B96F1F@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I believe it's "cylindre" in French (Ian Fleming: On Her Majesty's Secret Service). Craig On 25 Gwn 2012, at 17:35, Hedley Climo wrote: > Nicholas's 2006 dictionary offers us the calque: > top-hat, topper. hot owrlyn, -ttys owrlyn > > Although they have been made out of silk "hatters' plush", they have > more commonly been made of felted fur or wool, or cotton velour > (according to Wikipedia). Alternative English names for it include > not only 'silk hat', but also beaver hat (as in the risqu? Irish > air, Cock up your beaver!), high hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat, > and stove pipe hat. > > Other languages call it Zylinder Hut (German), Sombrero de copa alta > (Spanish), Haut-de-forme (French), and my favourite 'Lum hat' ('lum' > is Scots for a chimney). > > So, in addition to Michael's delightful 'hot chymbla', and > Nicholas's 'hot owrlyn', we might try calquing 'hot ughel', 'hot > syjan', or 'hot hyrgren'. > > On 2012 Gwn 25, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: >> Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? >> Ol an gwella, > > Eddie Climo > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Tue Sep 25 18:08:19 2012 From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:08:19 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> Message-ID: Da ew genam "hat hir". Dan Sent from my iPhone On 25.09.2012, at 18:44, Janice Lobb wrote: > In a story I am writing I have been using hat hir (or hot hir) - because I like the alliteration (and I like short words!). > > Jan > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Jon Mills wrote: > > > Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? > Ol an gwella, > Jon > > > > _____________________________________ > Dr. Jon Mills, > University of Kent > http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.hewitt at unesco.org Wed Sep 26 07:38:14 2012 From: s.hewitt at unesco.org (Hewitt, Stephen) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:38:14 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com><3141B1E4-DD85-48C1-9A1E-E695533CD8A4@evertype.com> Message-ID: <5E9FD0D28E107D43B34827E37659E60003BA9791@MAILSERVER-03.hq.int.unesco.org> In Breton it is: Un tok fo?ss uhel "a high-bottomed hat", which is not directly derived from French chapeau haut de forme "high-shaped hat" -----Original Message----- From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill Sent: 25 September 2012 18:15 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] top hat Hot uhel? Craig On 25 Gwn 2012, at 16:59, Michael Everson wrote: > On 25 Sep 2012, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: > >> Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? > > The Welsh Academy dictionary has "het silc" for this. Were they made > of silk? I didn't know it. Wikipedia says tt's called a "top hat, > beaver hat, high hat, silk hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat or stove > pipe hat". They date from the 18th century, so any term will do. > > Nicholas gives "hot owrlyn" 'silk hat' in his UCR dictionary. > > I like the idea of "hat chymbla" though. > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net Celebrate World Teachers' Day 5 October ----------------------------------------- Take a stand for teachers! Join us in celebrating 5 October, World Teachers? Day http://www.unesco.org/new/en/unesco/events/prizes-and-celebrations/celebrations/international-days/world-teachersday/ Agissons pour les enseignant(e)s ! Le 5 octobre, c?l?brons ensemble la Journ?e mondiale des enseignants http://www.unesco.org/new/en/unesco/events/prizes-and-celebrations/celebrations/international-days/world-teachersday/ From ray at spyrys.org Wed Sep 26 08:51:42 2012 From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:51:42 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> <3141B1E4-DD85-48C1-9A1E-E695533CD8A4@evertype.com> Message-ID: <79B81809-31B2-4F16-8816-33B4267221B2@spyrys.org> According to an old Cornish folk song they were indeed referred to as high hats in Cornwall. On 25 Gwn 2012, at 17:15, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > Hot uhel? > > Craig > > > On 25 Gwn 2012, at 16:59, Michael Everson wrote: > >> On 25 Sep 2012, at 16:25, Jon Mills wrote: >> >>> Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? >> >> The Welsh Academy dictionary has "het silc" for this. Were they >> made of silk? I didn't know it. Wikipedia says tt's called a "top >> hat, beaver hat, high hat, silk hat, cylinder hat, chimney pot hat >> or stove pipe hat". They date from the 18th century, so any term >> will do. >> >> Nicholas gives "hot owrlyn" 'silk hat' in his UCR dictionary. >> >> I like the idea of "hat chymbla" though. >> >> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Spellyans mailing list >> Spellyans at kernowek.net >> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net Ray Chubb Portreth Kernow Agan Tavas web site: www.agantavas.com From j.mills at email.com Wed Sep 26 08:51:39 2012 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 03:51:39 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat Message-ID: <20120926075139.181030@gmx.com> Many thanks for all the suggestions. I think that I will adopt "hat hir". Ol an gwella, Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 26 19:21:48 2012 From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Hedley Climo) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:21:48 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat > bowler hat In-Reply-To: <20120926075139.181030@gmx.com> References: <20120926075139.181030@gmx.com> Message-ID: <3FDF5ECB-E5F7-4881-AB8F-168A5D191FFA@yahoo.co.uk> Changing the topic slightly, what about the bowler hat (aka coke hat, derby, and billycock)? According to Wikipedia, it has nothing to do with cricket, but was (allegedly) invented back in 1849 by the brothers Bowler. NJAW's UCR dictionary offers the merely descriptive 'hot cales cren', while other European languages venture more picturesque names: 'chapeau melon' (French), 'Melone' (German), 'bombetta' (Italian), 'bolhoet' (Dutch), and 'Chap?u-coco' (Portuguese). My personal favourite is my grandparent's term from Caithness, namely a 'durler' (? spelling), a word which also means a (child's) potty! Thanks to a suggestion from Medhelwyther (based on usage by Map Essa + 'y hynsa), we might consider the delightful Cornish-Caithness calque 'hot podyk'. However, on this same theme, NJAW's offering for 'chamber pot' would suggest the less-than-wearable 'hot pycher pysa or 'hot urnal'! Who could resist the charms of a 'piss-pot hat' or indeed a 'urinal hat'? Even worse, perhaps, if we were to invoke that famously eponymous Thomas, inventor of lavatorial porcelain, we might even stoop to donning a 'cappa Crapper'! :-) My vote's gotta be for 'hot podyk', and for the bolder spirits, the 'cappa Crapper'! Eddie Climo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at agantavas.org Wed Sep 26 19:29:12 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:29:12 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat > bowler hat In-Reply-To: <3FDF5ECB-E5F7-4881-AB8F-168A5D191FFA@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20120926075139.181030@gmx.com> <3FDF5ECB-E5F7-4881-AB8F-168A5D191FFA@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <128B6D2A-5742-4371-8CF8-40D34664D04C@agantavas.org> Thanks for that, Eddie - was in need of a laugh. Craig On 26 Gwn 2012, at 19:21, Hedley Climo wrote: > Changing the topic slightly, what about the bowler hat (aka coke > hat, derby, and billycock)? According to Wikipedia, it has nothing > to do with cricket, but was (allegedly) invented back in 1849 by the > brothers Bowler. > > NJAW's UCR dictionary offers the merely descriptive 'hot cales > cren', while other European languages venture more picturesque > names: 'chapeau melon' (French), 'Melone' (German), > 'bombetta' (Italian), 'bolhoet' (Dutch), and 'Chap?u- > coco' (Portuguese). > > My personal favourite is my grandparent's term from Caithness, > namely a 'durler' (? spelling), a word which also means a (child's) > potty! Thanks to a suggestion from Medhelwyther (based on usage by > Map Essa + 'y hynsa), we might consider the delightful Cornish- > Caithness calque 'hot podyk'. However, on this same theme, NJAW's > offering for 'chamber pot' would suggest the less-than-wearable 'hot > pycher pysa or 'hot urnal'! > > Who could resist the charms of a 'piss-pot hat' or indeed a 'urinal > hat'? Even worse, perhaps, if we were to invoke that famously > eponymous Thomas, inventor of lavatorial porcelain, we might even > stoop to donning a 'cappa Crapper'! > > :-) > > My vote's gotta be for 'hot podyk', and for the bolder spirits, the > 'cappa Crapper'! > > Eddie Climo > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.mills at email.com Thu Sep 27 16:20:00 2012 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:20:00 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing Message-ID: <20120927152000.297290@gmx.com> I wonder if anyone can suggest a suitable Cornish translation of "ballroom dancing". Ol an gwella, Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From everson at evertype.com Thu Sep 27 16:54:49 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:54:49 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <20120927152000.297290@gmx.com> References: <20120927152000.297290@gmx.com> Message-ID: <65AB174D-D2FD-4A0A-8619-D7DCF856A672@evertype.com> On 27 Sep 2012, at 16:20, Jon Mills wrote: > I wonder if anyone can suggest a suitable Cornish translation of "ballroom dancing". Dauns hel? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 27 21:55:25 2012 From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:55:25 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> Message-ID: <2956FA15F01C42C798C5D94F33542751@863ab83586db4db> Yes, Hat Hir sounds exactly right and 'user friendly' as a term! What about a panama which I have proudly been wearing, having edged into respectable middle age, for the first time this 'summer'? I also fancy a homburg , following Hercules Poirot's impeccable style! However I nearly collapsed at the price of these in Lock's of london! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Janice Lobb To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] top hat In a story I am writing I have been using hat hir (or hot hir) - because I like the alliteration (and I like short words!). Jan On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Jon Mills wrote: Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? Ol an gwella, Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 27 21:48:49 2012 From: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com (Herbie Blackburn) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:48:49 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] top hat In-Reply-To: <2956FA15F01C42C798C5D94F33542751@863ab83586db4db> References: <20120925152556.181060@gmx.com> <2956FA15F01C42C798C5D94F33542751@863ab83586db4db> Message-ID: Assume these would be Hat/Hot Panama/Homburg, as they are named for the foreign places they came from and don't seem to have alternatives? eMail: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com P Please consider the environment before printing this eMail - thanks _____ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of ewan wilson Sent: 27 September 2012 21:55 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] top hat Yes, Hat Hir sounds exactly right and 'user friendly' as a term! What about a panama which I have proudly been wearing, having edged into respectable middle age, for the first time this 'summer'? I also fancy a homburg , following Hercules Poirot's impeccable style! However I nearly collapsed at the price of these in Lock's of london! Ewan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Janice Lobb To: Standard Cornish discussion list Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Spellyans] top hat In a story I am writing I have been using hat hir (or hot hir) - because I like the alliteration (and I like short words!). Jan On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Jon Mills wrote: Can anyone suggest a Cornish translation equivalent for 'top hat'? Ol an gwella, Jon _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2441/5293 - Release Date: 09/26/12 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at ferintosh.org Fri Sep 28 06:57:08 2012 From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 06:57:08 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <65AB174D-D2FD-4A0A-8619-D7DCF856A672@evertype.com> References: <20120927152000.297290@gmx.com> <65AB174D-D2FD-4A0A-8619-D7DCF856A672@evertype.com> Message-ID: <005101cd9d3e$1fd1f8c0$5f75ea40$@ferintosh.org> Current MAGA newsletter (Oct ) is using Stevel Dhons for ballroom. So I imagine Dons Stevel would represent ballroom dancing. - an ken Ken -----Original Message----- From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Michael Everson Sent: 27 September 2012 16:55 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing On 27 Sep 2012, at 16:20, Jon Mills wrote: > I wonder if anyone can suggest a suitable Cornish translation of "ballroom dancing". Dauns hel? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5292 - Release Date: 09/25/12 From craig at agantavas.org Fri Sep 28 08:36:39 2012 From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:36:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <005101cd9d3e$1fd1f8c0$5f75ea40$@ferintosh.org> References: <20120927152000.297290@gmx.com> <65AB174D-D2FD-4A0A-8619-D7DCF856A672@evertype.com> <005101cd9d3e$1fd1f8c0$5f75ea40$@ferintosh.org> Message-ID: <8DE48246-1C7F-44CA-823B-D3B267FAFE2C@agantavas.org> I don't think "stevel" is a very good choice. Usually the word indicates a chamber or dining-room; something a lot smaller than the space required for ballroom dancing. Craig On 28 Gwn 2012, at 06:57, Ken MacKinnon wrote: > Current MAGA newsletter (Oct ) is using Stevel Dhons for ballroom. > So I > imagine Dons Stevel would represent ballroom dancing. > > - an ken Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net > ] > On Behalf Of Michael Everson > Sent: 27 September 2012 16:55 > To: Standard Cornish discussion list > Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing > > On 27 Sep 2012, at 16:20, Jon Mills wrote: > >> I wonder if anyone can suggest a suitable Cornish translation of >> "ballroom > dancing". > > Dauns hel? > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5292 - Release Date: > 09/25/12 > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net From everson at evertype.com Fri Sep 28 08:44:33 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:44:33 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <8DE48246-1C7F-44CA-823B-D3B267FAFE2C@agantavas.org> References: <20120927152000.297290@gmx.com> <65AB174D-D2FD-4A0A-8619-D7DCF856A672@evertype.com> <005101cd9d3e$1fd1f8c0$5f75ea40$@ferintosh.org> <8DE48246-1C7F-44CA-823B-D3B267FAFE2C@agantavas.org> Message-ID: <83CD1039-B952-414E-9996-556CB2FB498E@evertype.com> On 28 Sep 2012, at 08:36, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > I don't think "stevel" is a very good choice. Usually the word indicates a chamber or dining-room; something a lot smaller than the space required for ballroom dancing. Hence "hel dauncya" Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From j.mills at email.com Fri Sep 28 11:40:42 2012 From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 06:40:42 -0400 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing Message-ID: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> I agree 'that stevel' may not be the best choice. However there is a semantic distinction between a 'dance' and a 'ball'. A 'ball' is a type of dance event. There is also a distinction between 'ballroom' and 'dance hall'. 'Ballroom dancing' entails dances such as the waltz, the foxtrot, the tango and precludes hornpipes, reels, and breakdancing. More suggestions, please. Ol an gwella, Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Everson Sent: 09/28/12 08:44 AM To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing On 28 Sep 2012, at 08:36, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > I don't think "stevel" is a very good choice. Usually the word indicates a chamber or dining-room; something a lot smaller than the space required for ballroom dancing. Hence "hel dauncya" Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk Fri Sep 28 12:00:39 2012 From: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk (Lowe Jenefer) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:00:39 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> References: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> Message-ID: <00E7C7CD7F4C1E43809083047053E3A9315A10@mem-mes-cen-177.cc.cornwallonline.net> There is also a difference between 'hel' hall used for village halls etc. and a plush ballroom in a hotel, which was where 'stevel dons' was used in the newsletter. Jenefer Lowe Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie County Hall / Lys Kernow Truro TR1 3AY internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465 tel: / pell: 01872 323465 email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter! @magakernow Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook! Find us on Facebook! www.facebook.com/magakernow The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council. Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow ________________________________ From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Jon Mills Sent: 28 September 2012 11:41 To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing I agree 'that stevel' may not be the best choice. However there is a semantic distinction between a 'dance' and a 'ball'. A 'ball' is a type of dance event. There is also a distinction between 'ballroom' and 'dance hall'. 'Ballroom dancing' entails dances such as the waltz, the foxtrot, the tango and precludes hornpipes, reels, and breakdancing. More suggestions, please. Ol an gwella, Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Everson Sent: 09/28/12 08:44 AM To: Standard Cornish discussion list Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing On 28 Sep 2012, at 08:36, Craig Weatherhill wrote: > I don't think "stevel" is a very good choice. Usually the word indicates a chamber or dining-room; something a lot smaller than the space required for ballroom dancing. Hence "hel dauncya" Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Spellyans mailing list Spellyans at kernowek.net http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net _____________________________________ Dr. Jon Mills, University of Kent http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills This e-mail and attachments are intended for above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please e-mail us immediately at enquiries at cornwall.gov.uk. Please note that this e-mail may be subject to recording and/or monitoring in accordance with the relevant legislation and may need to be disclosed under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Security Warning: It is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that this e-mail and any attachments are virus free. The Authority will not accept liability for any damage caused by a virus. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5276 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From everson at evertype.com Fri Sep 28 12:16:41 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:16:41 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> References: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> Message-ID: <6D672A72-2A0F-4945-ACE0-8E3586C532F1@evertype.com> On 28 Sep 2012, at 11:40, Jon Mills wrote: > I agree 'that stevel' may not be the best choice. However there is a semantic distinction between a 'dance' and a 'ball'. A 'ball' is a type of dance event. They may not be distinct in every language. > There is also a distinction between 'ballroom' and 'dance hall'. 'Ballroom dancing' entails dances such as the waltz, the foxtrot, the tango and precludes hornpipes, reels, and breakdancing. More suggestions, please. Daunsva. (< W.) Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From everson at evertype.com Fri Sep 28 12:19:10 2012 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:19:10 +0100 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> References: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> Message-ID: <02613142-9790-4481-BE04-C6D7D11E56AB@evertype.com> In the Welsh Academy dictionary sv. "dance" is "dawns", and sv. "ball" is "dawns". Sv. "ballroom" is ystafell ddawnsio, neuadd ddawns, dawnsfa. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ From njawilliams at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 18:04:58 2012 From: njawilliams at gmail.com (njawilliams) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:04:58 +0200 Subject: [Spellyans] Ballroom dancing In-Reply-To: <6D672A72-2A0F-4945-ACE0-8E3586C532F1@evertype.com> References: <20120928104042.297320@gmx.com> <6D672A72-2A0F-4945-ACE0-8E3586C532F1@evertype.com> Message-ID: Stevel isn't attested outside one occurrence in OCV. It means dining room. Nicholas Sent from my iPhone On 2012 Gwn 28, at 13:16, Michael Everson wrote: > On 28 Sep 2012, at 11:40, Jon Mills wrote: > >> I agree 'that stevel' may not be the best choice. However there is a semantic distinction between a 'dance' and a 'ball'. A 'ball' is a type of dance event. > > They may not be distinct in every language. > >> There is also a distinction between 'ballroom' and 'dance hall'. 'Ballroom dancing' entails dances such as the waltz, the foxtrot, the tango and precludes hornpipes, reels, and breakdancing. More suggestions, please. > > Daunsva. (< W.) > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Spellyans mailing list > Spellyans at kernowek.net > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net