[Spellyans] 2013 SWF Review

Janice Lobb janicelobb at gmail.com
Thu Apr 18 17:29:56 IST 2013


I just came across the problem of *goat kid(s) mynnen/mynn *in the SWF
dictionary where I would want to preocclude but presume I shouldn't
Jan


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Daniel Prohaska
<daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Here I try to give some ideas to the first point of the list:
>
> 1.)         geminates:****
>
>                             a.)         rules for doubling geminates;****
>
>                             b.)         lack of ultimate double ‹*nn*›;***
> *
>
>                             c.)          lack of clarity;****
>
>     d.)         vowel length in words which double geminates in plural e
> reduction of ‹*ll*›, ‹*mm*› & ‹*rr*› medially;****
>
>                             f.)          suffixes in ‹-*el*›, ‹-*en*›;
>
>
> ------------------------- ****
>
> *SWF Review Issues:*
>
> 1.)         geminates:****
>
>                             a.)         rules for doubling geminates;****
>
> ** **
>
> Here are the rules currently in use in the SWF as Specified in the SWF
> Specification (2008, abbr. “SWF Spec”).****
>
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p. 18): “For speakers of some varieties of RMC (including *Kernewek
> Kemmyn*), double consonant graphs also indicate where to pronounce
> geminate or long consonants.”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p.18): “Speakers of Revived Late and Tudor Cornish do not
> pronounce geminate consonants. Instead, the historical geminate sonorants
> ‹*ll **mm nn rr*› are pronounced as short fortes [lh bm dn rh] in their
> varieties.”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p.19): “The SWF indicates geminate or long liquids ‹*nn **ll rr*›
> in writing where they are actually pronounced long in conservative RMC, or
> as fortis [nh lh ɾh] in RLC and Tudor Cornish. This principle is extended
> to the phoneme /m/ which is also spelled ‹mm› where it is historically
> intrinsically long (as it is in most native words). Sonorants are doubled
> in those places where pre-occlusion of [mː] and [nː] occurs in Late
> Cornish – namely, in stressed syllables. Therefore ‹*mm* ~ *bm*, *nn* ~ *
> dn*, *ll*, *rr*› will be written in monosyllabic words and their
> compounds as well as in the stressed syllables of polysyllabic words.
> Vowels that precede double sonorants or pre-occluded ‹*bm **dn*› in such
> words are short.” {...}****
> {...} “In compound words, an initial element like *penn*- ~ *pedn*- or *
> kamm*- {*camm*-} ~ *kabm*- {*cabm*-} retains its double (or pre-occluded)
> consonant because of secondary stress. Therefore, the SWF writes ‹*mm* ~ *
> bm*, *nn* ~ *dn*, *ll*, *rr*› rather than ‹*m* *n* *l* *r*› in compounds
> like *pellgowser* ‘telephone’. Double consonants are lost, however, in
> compounds like *diwar* ‘(pair of) legs’ (from *diw* ‘two’ + *garr* ‘leg’),
> since in such cases, the stress falls on the first syllable, and the final
> element does not receive a secondary stress.”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p.22): “The double voiceless stops ‹*pp **tt kk*› are only
> written in medial position between two vowels or between a vowel and the
> consonant ‹*y*› [j] — places where the stops may be pronounced as
> geminate or long [pː tː kː].”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p.23): “The SWF does not write ‹-*pp* -*tt* -*kk*› word-finally
> because this would suggest a physically impossible pronunciation, such as
> [hatː] for *hatt*. Therefore, in the SWF, vowels are always short before ‹
> *p **t k*› apart from a few easily recognisable loanwords like *strok*
> ‘stroke’, *stret* ‘street’. In medial position, ‹-*pp*- -*tt*- -*kk*-›
> are retained in words like *klappya* {*clappya*} ‘chatter’ and plurals
> like *hattys*, *hattow* ‘hats’, where the stop may be pronounced as a
> geminate. As with geminate or fortis sonorants, the SWF writes geminate
> stops only where they are pronounced (by those speakers who distinguish
> long and short consonants).****
> Monosyllabic loanwords which have final [k] after a short vowel will be
> spelled with ‹-*ck*› rather than ‹-*k*› in the SWF. This enables the SWF
> to distinguish words like klock {clock} [klɔk] ‘clock’ which contain
> short vowels from words like *klok *{*clok*} [klɔːk] ~ [kloːk] ‘cloak’
> which contain long vowels. Plural forms (*klockys *{*clockys*} ‘clocks’; *
> klokys *{*clokys*} ‘cloaks’) and compounds containing these words will
> preserve the spelling ‹-*ck*› or ‹-*k*› found in the root.****
> Medial [kː] from historical /k + h/ in comparatives, superlatives, and
> subjunctives will be spelled ‹*kk*›, as in *tekka *‘prettier, prettiest’
> and *dokko *‘may carry’. The graph ‹*ck*› will be used medially in
> loanwords like *klockys *{*clockys*} ‘clocks’. Both medial ‹-*kk*-› and ‹-
> *ck*-› may be pronounced as long or geminate [kː] by speakers who
> recognise distinctions in consonant length.”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (pp. 28/29): “Generally, double fricative spellings indicate that
> the preceding vowel is short and that the consonant itself is pronounced as
> a geminate in some varieties of RMC.****
> ** **
> The SWF does not write ‹*ggh*›, ‹*ssh*›, or ‹*cch*› (the KK graphs used
> for [xː], [ʃː], [tʃː]) because:****
> ** **
> 1. KK ‹*ssh*› [ʃː] and ‹*cch*› [tʃː] represent marginal phonemes, and are
> only found in a few loanwords. In words like *passyon* ‘passion’, the
> historical trigraph ‹*ssy*› which suggests the pronunciation [ʃː] (‹ [sːj]),
> will be used instead.****
> ** **
> 2. In the SWF, the digraph ‹*gh*› in medial position is unambiguous. As
> discussed in § 4.6 above, a ‹*gh*› written between two vowels can only
> stand for the sound KK users pronounce as a geminate [xː]. The vowel
> which precedes such a medial ‹*gh*› will therefore be interpreted as
> short according to RMC rules about vowel length. Where a non-geminate /x/
> phoneme occurs between vowels (in words like *laha* ‘law’, KK *lagha*), it
> is realised as [h], and is accordingly spelled ‹*h*› in the SWF.****
> ** **
> However, the trigraph ‹*tth*› is used for geminate [θː] in comparatives,
> superlatives and subjunctives like *kottha* {*cottha*} ‘oldest’. This
> graph is attested in the traditional Cornish corpus, and is useful for
> speakers of some varieties of RMC, since it clearly marks the preceding
> vowel as short.”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p. 82): “Other departures from current KK usage include vocalic
> alternation, a feature of traditional Cornish texts by which ‹*y*› in
> monosyllables often becomes ‹*e*› in polysyllables, and the introduction
> of phonetic rather than morpho-phonemic spelling in words whose roots
> contain geminate ‹*mm **nn ll rr*›.”****
> ** **
> SWF Spec (p. 84): “In contrast to KK, the SWF writes geminate consonants
> only where they are actually pronounced. This means that ‹*mm **nn ll rr*›
> will be restricted to stressed syllables, resulting in alternations like:*
> ***
> ** **
> *bleujen*, *pl*. *bleujennow* ‘flower(s)’****
> *dyllans*, *pl*. *dylansow* ‘emission’****
> ** **
> In compounds, ‹*mm **nn ll rr*› will be written in syllables carrying
> secondary stress, like the initial syllable of *pellgowser* ‘telephone’,
> but not in word-final position in words like *diwar* ‘(pair of) legs’.****
> While this approach may seem tedious at first to people who are used to
> morphemic spellings, it has a major advantage as well: it tells learners
> exactly how to pronounce the consonants in question. If they are written
> double, then they should be pronounced long. In the case of the examples
> given above, the forms *bleujennow* and *dyllans* have long consonants,
> while the forms *bleujen* and *dylansow* do not. The SWF therefore
> supports correct KK pronunciation of these words.****
> ** **
> The Digraphs ‹*mm* ~ *bm*›, ‹*nn* ~ *dn*›, ‹*ll*›, and ‹*rr*› in the SWF 1.These
> forms will be written in syllables with primary stress:****
> *RMC**                                                   RLC
>                                                                   Meaning*
> *kamm*                             ~                *kabm
>                                                              *‘crooked’**
> *kemmer*                         ~                *kebmer*
>                                                          ‘take’**
> *rann*                               ~                *radn*
>                                                                ‘part’**
> *ranna*                             ~                *radna*
>                                                             ‘divide’**
> *pell*                                 ~                *pell*
>                                                                 ‘far’****
> *gallos*                            ~                *gallos
>                                                            *‘be able to ’
>   * *
> *garr*                                ~                *garr*
>                                                                ‘leg’**
> *terri*                               ~                *terri*
>                                                                ‘break’****
> * *
>
> ** **
> The Digraphs ‹*mm* ~ *bm*›, ‹*nn* ~ *dn*›, ‹*ll*›, and ‹*rr*› in the SWF 2.
> They will also be written in compound words, in syllables with secondary
> stress:****
> ** **
> *RMC**                                                   RLC
>                                                                   Meaning*
> *kammneves*                  ~                *kabmdhavas*
>                                                ‘rainbow’****
> *pennglin*                       ~                *pednglin
>                                      *
> ‘kneecap’****
> *pellgowser*                                     -
>
> ‘telephone’****
> *korrdonner                                   *-*
>                                                      *
> ‘microwave’****
> * *
> * *
> 3. They will not be used in unstressed syllables:****
> * *
> *RMC**                                                   RLC
>                                                                   Meaning*
> *kemeres*                        ~                *kemeres*
>                                                         ‘take’****
> *diwvron*                        ~                *diwvron*
>
> ‘breast’****
> *galosek                         *~*                galosek
>                                                          *‘powerful’* ****
> *
> *diwar                             ~                diwar
>                                                              *‘pair of
> legs’****
> ** **
> This third rule will prevent mispronunciations like **kebmeres or
> **diwvrodn.****
> ** **
> For comparable reasons, word-final ‹-*pp* -*tt* -*kk*› do not appear in
> the SWF because voiceless stops can only be pronounced long in medial
> position. The SWF thus writes *hat* ‘hat’ and *top* ‘top’. In order to
> distinguish words like *klok* ‘cloak’ (which has a long vowel) and *klock*
>  ‘clock’ (which has a short vowel), ‹-*ck*› will be used to represent the
> sound [k] after short vowels in monosyllablic English loanwords and their
> compounds. Medial ‹-*pp*-, -*tt*-, -*kk*-› will occur between vowels, or
> between a vowel and the consonant ‹*y*› in words like *klappya*
> ‘chatter’, *hattow* ‘hats’, and *lakka* ‘worse’. Medial ‹-*ck*-› will be
> used instead of ‹-*kk*-› in loanwords like *klockow* ‘clocks’.****
> Of the other KK geminates ‹*ggh **tth ssh cch*›, the SWF writes only ‹*tth
> *›, in comparative, superlative, and subjunctive forms like *kottha* ‘older,
> oldest’ or *hettho* ‘may stop’. The forms ‹*ssh*› and ‹*cch*›, which are
> only found in a few loanwords, are replaced by ‹*sh*› and ‹*ch*›; the
> word *passhyon* will be respelled as *passyon*, but may still be
> pronounced as in KK. The sequence ‹*ggh*› is replaced by medial ‹*gh*› in
> the SWF. Since the SWF writes ‹*h*› rather than ‹*gh*› for the medial
> consonant sound in words like laha (KK lagha) ‘law’, a ‹*gh*› written
> between two vowels (as in *sygha* ~ *segha* ‘drier, driest’)
> unambiguously represents a geminate [xː].”****
>
> ** **
>
> For the most part the SWF rules are sound. The only systematic discrepancy
> I see is where the unstressed part of a compound is concerned, e.g. ‹*
> pellgowser*› where stress is on ‹-*gows*-› and ‹*pell*-› is unstressed.
> In other words, such as ‹*kemeres*› the geminate that appears in the
> stress simplex ‹*kemmer*› is simplified and written ‹*m*› rather than ‹*mm
> *› (= ***kemmeres*). To be more consistent it may be advantageous to
> simplify the written geminate in ‹*pellgowser*› as well and write ‹*
> pelgowser*› and ‹*kemeres*›. All in all, with the SWF showing more
> features of a phonetic rather than a phonemic orthography, geminates should
> only be written where they are of phonological relevance, i.e.:****
>
> ** **
>
>               -) Where one or more varieties of RC (‘Revived Cornish’)
> recommend a pronunciation with a geminate (or fortis) consonant;****
>
>               -) Where one or more varieties of RC recommend a short
> vowel in a monosyllabic word;****
>
>               -) Concerning /mː/ and /nː/ where RLC (‘Revived Late
> Cornish’) shows Pre-Occlusion to ‹*bm*› and ‹*dn*›;****
>
> ** **
>
>                             b.)         lack of ultimate double ‹*nn*›;***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> This is problematic only for those RC speakers used to *Kernewek Kemmyn* (KK
> henceforth) or Breton. An ultimate, i.e. word-final double-n is written in
> the SWF if the final syllable carries the main stress of the word, e.g. RMC
> (‘Revived Middle Cornish’) ‹*kedrynn*› ~ RLC ‹*kedrydn*› ‘quarrel’. In
> such a case writing ‹*nn*› rather than ‹*n*› is of phonological
> consequence. The ‹*nn*› here shows that one or more varieties of Cornish
> recommend a pronunciation with a short vowel, with a long /nː/, or with a
> pre-occluded [dn] in RLC.****
>
> ** **
>
> I think what KK-users who want word-final (‘ultimate’) ‹*nn*› mean that
> they want to derive the from a singular form, e.g. ***gwedhenn* (KK ‹*
> gwydhenn*›), that its corresponding plural form is ‹*gwedhennow*› (KK ‹*
> gwydhennow*›) rather than ***gwedhenow*.****
>
> ** **
>
> There are possible arguments against the use of ‹*nn*› (and other written
> double consonants) in word-final unstressed position:****
>
> ** **
>
> -) It was generally not used in traditional Cornish, especially in the
> case of ‹*m*(*m*)› and ‹*n*(*n*)›; ****
>
> ** **
>
> -) It is not relevant to deriving the pronunciation of the singular form.
> No recommended phonology of RC proposes a distinction in pronunciation
> between word-final unstressed ‹*n*› and ‹*nn*›, not even KK which is the
> only orthography to spell this morpho-phonemic difference;****
>
> ** **
>
> -) Writing ‹nn› in word-final unstressed position has the disadvantage of
> possibly prompting mispronunciations and mistaken placement of stress in
> the word. In KK teaching material (KK version of *Kernewek Dre Lyther*) a
> speaker pronounced the name ***Yowann* as [jʊˈwadn].****
>
> ** **
>
> -) The argument that “Breton does it” is irrelevant to Cornish as No
> recommended phonology of RC proposes a distinction in pronunciation between
> word-final unstressed ‹*n*› and ‹*nn*›, not even KK which is the only
> orthography to spell this morpho-phonemic difference. This is not the case
> in Breton. Breton speakers today generally use an interdialectal
> orthography when writing their language. The South-Eastern Breton dialect
> of Gwened (Vannes) has word-final stress in polysyllabic words, so for this
> dialect the distinction between a word-final ‹*nn*› and ‹*n*› is
> phonologically relevant.****
>
> ** **
>
>                             c.)          lack of clarity;****
>
> ** **
>
> It would be helpful to have examples and an explanation as to which lack
> of clarity is meant here, in order to tackle the perceived problems. This
> point needs elaboration.****
>
> ** **
>
>                             d.)         vowel length in words which
> double geminates in plural ‹*e*› reduction of ‹*ll*›, ‹*mm*› & ‹*rr*›
> medially;****
>
> ** **
>
> This point also needs elaboration. It is quite unclear what the problem
> seems to be. I assume this concerns words like ‹*gwedhen*› and ‹*fardel*›.
> Their plural forms are ‹*gwedhennow*› ~ ‹*gwedhednow*› and ‹*fardellow*›.
> There are other words with final ‹-*l*› and ‹-*n*›, such as ‹*aval*› (pl.
> ‹*avalow*›) and ‹*tremen*› (pl. ‹*tremenow*›) which do not show a double
> consonant in the plural form. This is perceived as an inconsistency by
> those used to KK spelling, but not so for other Cornish speakers who are
> used to UC, UCR, KS or Modern Cornish. The question that needs to be
> answered before coming up with an orthographical solution whether and in
> what way the singular form should hint at the form and shape of the plural
> form (and possibly vice versa). Cornish shows a variety of possible plural
> (and singular) endings that in most cases need to be learnt along with the
> corresponding singular (or plural) form. There is no way to predict if a
> singular Cornish noun forms it plural by:****
>
>               -) adding an ending (e.g.: -*ow*, -*yow*, -*yon*, -s, -*es*,
> -*ys*, -*i*/-*y*, -*as*); ****
>
>               -) dropping an ending (e.g.: -*yn*, -*en*);****
>
>               -) prefixing *dew*- or *diw*- followed by soft mutation;****
>
>               -) by vowel-change or ‘umlaut’ (e.g.: *troos*, *pl*. *treys*
> ; *dans*, *pl*. *dens* ~ *dyns*);****
>
>               -) by combining two of the above mentioned features;****
>
> ** **
>
> It is not necessary to single out certain suffixes that show this feature.
> A plural form must be learnt along with the singular form. This is one of
> the difficulties of the Cornish language. A geminate should only be written
> where it is phonologically relevant.****
>
> ** **
>
> -) Where one or more varieties of RC recommend a pronunciation with a
> geminate (or fortis) consonant;****
>
> -) Where one or more varieties of RC recommend a short vowel in a
> monosyllabic word;****
>
> -) Concerning /mː/ and /nː/ where RLC shows Pre-Occlusion to ‹*bm*› and ‹*
> dn*›;****
>
> ** **
>
>                             f.)          suffixes in ‹-*el*›, ‹-*en*›;****
>
> ** **
>
> See above.****
> Dan
>
>
>
> On Apr 18, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> On 18 Apr 2013, at 11:32, A. J. Trim <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>
> As you may know, the MAGA Kernow website now has a link to “Collated
> issues for SWF review.pdf” / “List of issues raised for the SWF Review”.
>
> We have until the end of this month to comment.
>
> There are apparently 56 issues.
>
>
> Yes, and the list is meaningless without context. I have said the
> following to Jenefer on the Corpus group list, and I am saying it now here.
>
> Jenefer, if it hasn't been made clear to you, you cannot expect linguistic
> experts to comment on nothing but a set of issue titles. Each title came
> with a rationale from its submitter. WIthout the full set of rationales, it
> is not possible to give you feed back. And it is not reasonable to ask
> linguistic experts to guess.
>
> Please supply a complete document.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
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>
>
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>
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