[Spellyans] Pronuncaiation

Ken MacKinnon ken at ferintosh.org
Mon Apr 29 11:40:58 IST 2013


Eoghain, a charaid,

 

Agreed on your interpretations – also that the grammatical resources  of a language can yield useful, distinctive, and effective nuances.

 

I met Roddy several times whilst he was still alive.  We spoke in Gaelic and he told me that his daughter (who lived at Basildon at the time I was Mayor of Southend) had described me as a complete and utter Englishman!   I used his book with beginners classes.  It has the word ‘bliadhnadh’ for ‘sunbathing’ – and I explained this to my students that in the Gaelic areas the sun was likely to appear only once a year.

 

Gorhemmyndadow - Ken

 

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of ewan wilson
Sent: 26 April 2013 20:46
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Pronuncaiation

 

Hi, Ken.

Yes, in my mind the unmutated version would translate something like-

' Gaelic is better [being] broken than [being] in its coffin.' 

 

It is unmutated as the attribute is as you say complementary not attributive.

 

With lenition- 'bhriste' - I'd want to think the sense in english runs-

'Broken Gaelic is better than [Gaelic] in its coffin.' 

The complementary adjective is the comparative 'fhearr', on this 'take'. 

It just goes to prove that what seems like a rather pedantic treatment of the grammar can have a subtle but decided difference in nuance, don't you think? Would you agree with my interpretation of both?

 

I like both your 'saw' and the 'garbh-marbh' one.

 

 It reminds us all, whatever the case, of the importance of the old exhortation: 'Cum Gaidhlig beo' , where the adjective is in the complement so unlenited despite the feminine substantive! 

 

I wonder what analysis James Gleasure'd make of this, as a 'linguist's linguist'?! Did Ronald Black ever produce a manual of Gaelic Grammar? 

The grammar book I swear by [ in the best sense of the term!] remains my dear old yellow and yellowing but rarely improved upon TYS Gaelic by the late Roderick MacKinnon. In my opinion that is how to teach a language effectively! 

What we need now is the equivalent of a Thesaurus in Gaelic. I started on the bare bones of such a thing back in the early 80s - mainly to reinforce my grasp of vocabulary in preparation for my Hons finals- but have never had the time to resume it since.

 

Ewan.

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Ken MacKinnon <mailto:ken at ferintosh.org>  

To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>  

Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 1:02 PM

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Pronuncaiation

 

Eoghain, a charaid,

 

My original coinage was ‘ Is fheàrr Gàidhlig bhriste na Gàidhlig na ciste’, i.e ‘Better broken Gaelic than Gaelic in its coffin’.

 

It was Ronnie Black’s suggestion that briste could be unlenited, with the sense that it is better for Gaelic to be broken than in its coffin.   I am happy with either – but the former is the original.

 

A neater and more recent suggestion is ‘ Is fheàrr Gàidhlig gharbh na marbh.’   Garbh lenites because it follows the feminine noun.  Marbh doesn’t because it is presumably in the complement after an understood bhi ?

 

-        Gans gorhemmynadow – an ken Ken

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of ewan wilson
Sent: 25 April 2013 20:57
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Pronuncaiation

 

Hi, Ken!

 

I'd hazard a guess that most speaker'd instinctively want to lenite to 'bhriste' as the adjective 'feels attributive' rather than predicative in this context. 

My old English teacher always told us: ' If the whole point of saying the sentence is to describe the subject by the adjective  then the adjective is predicative not attributive.'  The point of this sentence lies elsewhere, I'd have thought...

To have it unlentied would suggest to me you're saying it's better to break the Gaelic.., to get the Gaelic broken but of course  learner's intuition may be  quite wrong!   I'd welcome your thoughts.

 

Ewan. 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Ken MacKinnon <mailto:ken at ferintosh.org>  

To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>  

Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:04 PM

Subject: [Spellyans] Pronuncaiation

 

Jon,

 

Some good few years ago I concocted some words of encouragement for my then Gaelic class: Is fhearr Gaidhlig bhriste na Gaidhlig ‘na ciste.    (‘Better broken Gaelic than Gaelic in its coffin’).

 

This took off and has enjoyed a life of its own.  It sparked off a controversy as to whether briste should be aspirated or not: ’Gaidhlig bhriste…’ meaning broken Gaelic, and ‘Gaelic briste’ meaning ‘Gaelic (that is) broken..’

 

I have also seen it quoted as on ‘old Gaelic proverb’, and seen it written on a wall in Edinburgh.   Maybe it is worth a Cornish version:   ‘Gwella Kernowek terrys ages Kernowek encledhys’ ?    …..   Could be improved upon – especially re rhymes.    We could also have a controversy about spelling and pronouncing encledhys.

 

-        An ken Ken  (estuary English speaker)

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Jon Mills
Sent: 22 January 2013 10:19
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] cledh etc

 

We should be careful not to be overly dismissive of the way that others pronounce Cornish. Learners should be commended for attempting to speak Cornish at all. There is nothing more off-putting to a learner than being told that they do not pronounce correctly. And the person who criticises can appear supercilious and bigoted. We should remember that theories of how Cornish should be pronounced abound, and that theories of how Cornish was pronounced in past centuries are conjectural.
Ol an gwella,
Jon

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Craig Weatherhill

Sent: 01/20/13 07:03 PM

To: Standard Cornish discussion list

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] cledh etc

 

I have to agree with Jan's comment here, which isn't too optimistic about the future of  spoken Cornish.  Most of the the critics speak Cornish like a South Eastern Englishman trying to speak French,  What they  say sounds like received (received from whom?) English with unfamiliar words.  Nothing Cornish about it! 

 

Craig

 

 

 

On 2013 Gen 20, at 13:01, Janice Lobb wrote:

 

Ken, until there are examiners who are competent to judge the fluency of someone speaking with a Late Cornish "accent", I wouldn't bank on passing Grade Four speaking no matter how good you get! 

Oll an gwella

Jan

 

On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Ken MacKinnon <ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:

I would very much welcome details of how to obtain Dan’s Desky Kernowek audio courses.

 

Pronunciation has been my downfall.   For this reason I failed the oral at Grade Four a few years ago and have postponed the attempt to rectify it ever since.    When I was first teaching myself Gaelic from books in the days before audio courses of any kind I found I virtually had to relearn my painfully and erroneously acquired Gaelic once again from scratch.    I have no desire to repeat the process with Cornish.  Hence my reluctance to continue further.

 

An ken Ken 

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of e-mail kevin.blackburn1
Sent: 18 January 2013 15:29


To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] cledh etc

 

 

 

On 18 January 2013 15:09, Christian Semmens <christian.semmens at gmail.com> wrote:

One of the huge problems of learning Cornish so far has been the lack of accessibility to exemplar speakers (whoever they may be) and deficiencies in the orthographies resulting in poor pronunciation.


I've been enjoying Dan's Desky Kernowek audio courses - though I'm not as aware of good and bad practice!

 

--
Kevin 'Herbie' Blackburn
Sent from my WebMail
tel: 07791193602


  _____  


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/> 
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6040 - Release Date: 01/17/13


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
 

_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

 




_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
University of Kent
http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills 

  _____  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6049 - Release Date: 01/21/13

  _____  

_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

  _____  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6274 - Release Date: 04/26/13

  _____  

_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

  _____  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6274 - Release Date: 04/26/13

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://kernowek.net/pipermail/spellyans_kernowek.net/attachments/20130429/5b68e1a9/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the Spellyans mailing list