[Spellyans] The sound of r

kinhelfa . nige.martin at gmail.com
Thu Dec 12 10:11:23 GMT 2013


Having been exposed to a few "murrderr" quotes during my working time in
various areas of Scotland, I quite agree with Ewan's comments although, to
this day, I never could understand Hector Nicol.

Nigel

On 12 December 2013 00:03, ewan wilson <butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com> wrote:

>  The 'smoothing out' of the 'r' sound is something few Scots can
> understand in English dialects, especially as it then seems to intervene in
> certain other English dialects.
> For instance 'Against the law' is often heard as 'Against the LawR.' Verry
> peculiarr!! Is this an invasive 'Estuary English' feature?
>
> As for Scots producing a very pronounced trilled 'r' as in Private Fraser
> in Dad's Army, I have to say few Scots actually realise the trill in quite
> such a strongly rolled fashion, though 'r' definitely makes itself felt in
> most  Scottish dialects.
>
> Ewan.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:57 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] The sound of r
>
> I haven't a clue when it comes to the technical terms.  I simply use the
> same R I've spoken all my life.  Just like the older folk in West Cornwall.
>  A R which is spoken and never left silent, e.g "baker" is "BAI-ker", never
> "BAIK-uh".  It's simply spoken and not exaggerated in any way.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>  On 2013 Kev 11, at 17:17, Christian Semmens wrote:
>
>   Pop along to KDL and prepare for more r-r-r-r-r's than your ears can
> stand! It is horrible.
>
> That aside, Craig, do you use a retroflex r or a bunched r, or both? I
> find it depends on the word, something like "murder" seems retroflex whilst
> "grand" or "great" used a bunched r whilst "grander" uses both.
>
> It can be difficult to tell without an x-ray machine or a pen to poke
> about with to work out what the tip of your tongue is actually doing  :)
>
> Is there any evidence that a pervasive trilled r was used in Cornish this
> side of the Norman Conquest?
>
> Christian
>
>
> On 11 December 2013 16:34, Clive Baker <clive.baker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was used by and taught to me by Tallek and Peter Poole although only
>> as a very light trill and never with such a rrrrrr as spoken by the bard
>> you talk of Craig...his is so obviously false.....as to its validity I can
>> give no answer but believe that I have heard Nance use the same many many
>> years ago
>> Clive
>>  On Dec 11, 2013 4:26 PM, "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've heard it at a Gorsedh, from an elderly (non-Cornish) bard, intoning
>>> Cornish like some Biblical prophet of doom.  Rak (rag) was coming out as
>>> "R-r-r-r-r-r- ak"., rather as once taught in elocution lessons.  I felt so
>>> embarrassed that spectators were being subjected to Cornish being spoken in
>>> such an appallingly awful manner which it never had as a community
>>> language, and which was far more likely to invite ridicule.  In fact, I
>>> felt rather…err…"browned-off".
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2013 Kev 11, at 15:47, Christian Semmens wrote:
>>>
>>> > Whilst stumbling around the internet during a quiet few minutes, I
>>> came upon someone recommending the KDL free language course. I hadn't been
>>> over that fence for a while so I thought I'd have a listen to the audio.
>>> >
>>> > I will make no further comment on it as I am no expert on ancient
>>> Cornish sounds, I'll leave that for others (although I would be interested
>>> to hear if anyone thinks those sounds have any merit in revived Cornish at
>>> all).
>>> >
>>> > That took me on to the sounds of r in British and Irish dialects and,
>>> although it will be no news to others, came across the "bunched r" or
>>> "molar r" and was surprised to find that I used it too, particularly when
>>> in Cornwall. Although it may well be the effect on my speech by having
>>> moved up-country at an early age. It appears that this type of r sound is
>>> fairly common in the US and Australia. For those of you who still have a
>>> full-time Cornish accent (mine is oddly dependent upon which side of
>>> Gordano services I am on), do you also use a bunched r sound or are your r
>>> sounds the retroflex alveolar appoximant variety or a mix?
>>> >
>>> > (I've never heard a Cornishman use an alveolar trill, unless he was
>>> impersonating a Scotsman)
>>> >
>>> > Christian
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>>
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