[Spellyans] The sound of r

Christian Semmens christian.semmens at gmail.com
Sat Dec 14 16:43:48 GMT 2013


I'd just like to echo Eddie here, and also point out to Linus that
pronunciation heard on RanG is not the issue. RanG is the way learners (for
that is what even the best speakers amongst us still should be) actually
speak. And I agree that they should be lauded for their efforts, not
disparaged.

The issue is the exemplar pronunciation. That should be as good as we can
get it. It is valid to suggest that we don't actually have any recordings
of native speakers from before the 20th Century, but that does not mean
that we should be peddling a fantastical phonology as actual spoken
Cornish. The language was the foundation for the dialect and the accent
that can still be heard if you you are lucky. Why would you even want to
change the sounds of Cornish to some hypothetical pan-celtic approximation?
Is it because KK seeks to purge the effects of English from Cornish? Why?
It is precisely those effects that led to Cornish being a distinct
language.

This hypothetical phonology continues to blight the pronunciation of
learners to this day, it has blighted the writings of half the language
movement and it continues to blight the SWF even though there is not one
good reason for continuing it, apart from the fact that many current
learners were taught something specious. By using SWF/KK, we perpetuate
that error (Kammbronn, be damned). If the primary form were the traditional
variant, then within one generation the alien graphs would disappear. The
current learners would not have to stop using KK graphs, let them have
their side-form if they must use it, new learners would simply see
traditional graphs and the error would be rectified in the natural way. No
confusion.

Instead the shoe is on the other foot.
Madness.

And I'm back on my hobby horse, sorry. This thread was supposed to be about
the pronunciation of 'r'.

Christian



On 13 December 2013 16:42, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:

> oops, sorry a bostya broas…
> Dan
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
> Jenefer wheg, ha cowetha erel ewedh,
>
> Meur ras dhis a'th cowsel adreus e'n mater ma. Besy ew raga nei remembra
> dr'o nei dyskyblon oll. Ha gwir os ta, Jenefer, pa thes'ta o leverel
> dr'ella nei oll cabmwul, en arbednek mars eus microfon dheragon! En certan,
> thew posek ewedh, dr'ujy an dhescadoryon ha'n descadoresow o tisqwedhes
> leveryans vas dhe'ga dhyskyblon anjei, ha heb mar henn ew pur vesy en
> recordyansow levow. Abera dhodhan'jei, nei obma a alja gweres dhodhans owna
> an cabmgemeryansow bian, bus soweth, ma pobel o predery bos discortes owna
> tus ha benenes erel en maters a leveryans. E'n barth aral ma meur a
> Gernowegoryon ha Kernowegoresow eus whans dhodhans gwellhe aga leveryans
> anjei. Ytho, pandr'ella nei gwul?
>
> Udn pella poynt a skians: Na wore'nei en pe vaner a veu cowsys Kernowek
> hengovek. Nag elle'nei leverel poran fatel vedha leveryans an /r/, bo son
> aral. Ytho, me ewedh a venja gwarnya warbydn jujjya leveryans an bobel re
> anwhek, bes nei a res gweres a'n eyl dh'y gila en maner wheg ha cortes, en
> arbednek, obma en cowsva open pecar'a holma.
>
> Ehes da ha sowena dhe whei oll,
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Lowe Jenefer wrote:
>
>    May I also point out that when confronted with a microphone, even the
> best of speakers will often falter – in any language! For myself I would
> rather hear someone speaking naturally and with some questionable
> pronunciations thrown in, than hear someone who is so careful about trying
> to stick to an aspirational pronunciation (of whatever persuasion) that
> they lose all semblance of fluency.
>
>
>
> There are also a number of speakers (and I would count myself among them)
> who began learning Cornish in the seventies, when a lot of the Cornish
> pronunciation around was very English and RP, and have since gone through
> quite a number of different iterations. This makes it inevitable that we
> have speakers whose Cornish pronunciation is mixed and probably not what
> anyone would aspire to – add a microphone and general nervousness and I am
> sure it often does not come out as intended! It is also inevitable that as
> Cornish speakers come together more, become accustomed to each other’s
> pronunciation and become more fluent, pronunciation will alter – surely
> that is also the sign of a living language?
>
>
>
> *Jenefer Lowe*
>
> *Development Manager /* *Dyghtyer displegya*
>
> *Cornish Language Partnership** / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek*
>
> *Cornwall** Council / Konsel Kernow*
>
> *Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie*
>
> *County Hall / Lys Kernow*
>
> *Truro*
>
> *TR1 3AY*
>
>
>
> * internal tel: pell. ajy: 493465*
>
> *tel: / pell**:** 01872 323465 <01872%20323465>*
>
> *email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk <jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk>*
>
> *website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk
> <http://www.magakernow.org.uk/>  *
>
>
>
> *Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter!*
>
> *@magakernow*
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
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> Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council.*
>
> *Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag
> Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow*
>
>  <image001.jpg>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of *Linus
> Band
> *Sent:* 13 December 2013 08:55
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] The sound of r
>
>
>
> May I suggest that if people are so frustrated with the pronunciation on
> RanG that they just offer to do some recordings for it every now and then
> themselves? I've very often noticed that Matthi was looking for people to
> record something for the podcast but no one responded at all. From what I
> understand, Matthi is not interested in the 'politics', so I can't see why
> anyone would not be allowed to be on the podcast. RanG is the most visible
> piece of electronic media that the Cornish language community has and I
> think that it should be appreciated how much it does for the community.
> It's a fun programme.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Linus
>
>
>
> 2013/12/13 Ken MacKinnon <ken at ferintosh.org>
>
> To be fair to MAGA, they represent the Partnership, Craig, they have finite
> resources, few paid staff, and a very substantial slate of things which
> need
> to be done.
>
>
> - an Ken ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig
> Weatherhill
> Sent: 12 December 2013 21:36
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] The sound of r
>
> Yes, not a very good attitude on MAGA's part, is it?
>
> Craig
>
>
> On 2013 Kev 12, at 20:51, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> > On 12 Dec 2013, at 17:01, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not prepared to deride some speakers on Radyo an G. for the very
> reasons you give, Eddie.  I'd just like them to look more closely at
> pronunciation.
> >
> > I have been offering for years to transcribe some of the recordings MAGA
> has, but to date the offer has not been taken up.
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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