[Spellyans] Place-Names & maps

Ken MacKinnon ken at ferintosh.org
Fri Feb 8 16:14:56 GMT 2013


Herbie, and friends,

 

I have long realised that this is a difficult road to travel, but I have
always felt that any representations of Cornish place-names should bear
witness to their historic development.

 

This is why I have felt that Craig's methodology in his Concise Dictionary
was well-considered: to render names in an SWF-compatible form but with
respect to historic spellings.   This ensures that they bear comparison with
the present-day form that the names now take.    We would similarly need to
ensure that any revision of historic English place-names did not look and
sound incongruous.  No one would e.g. countenance names like Acton being
'modernised' to 'Oak-Town', etc.   This is why the whole business of
modernising and officialising historic place-names deserves to be undertaken
with due care and respect for public sensitivities.

 

-        An ken Ken

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of e-mail
kevin.blackburn1
Sent: 08 February 2013 13:49
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place-Names & maps

 

Some thoughts: Place names in Cornwall, like in the rest of Britain, must
reflect the history of how they got to where they are now - it would be a
strange world if all place names were respelled with modern orthography and
consistency - imagine around where I live: Guildford would become
Golden-ford, Shalford - Shallow-ford, Burpham - Boar's hamlet, Worplesdon -
Werpe's hill & down, Pirbright - Peartree grove, and so on - i.e. losing all
their history and the contractions and fashions that time has thrown at
them.

 

So with place names I feel the question of orthography is rather irrelevant,
and that the stance of Craig's book which doesn't apply a consistent
orthography but takes into account all different influences on determining a
current name for a place, is the right way to go. If SWF/KK or UC, or
whatever is applied to place names all over Cornwall, the local flavours and
natural diversifications will be lost etc.

 

I'm beginning to realise that this is a difficult road to travel!

 

Herbie

 

On 8 February 2013 13:31, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> wrote:

The Signage Panel is only producing a list in SWF/K.  I've been compiling a
parallel list, for place-names, with both that and SWF/T.

 

My dictionary took into account all Oliver's published work, plus many other
sources including (with care, because it's full of errors) Gover.

 

Craig

 

 

On 2013 Whe 6, at 17:39, Ken MacKinnon wrote:





Many thanks for that Christian.

 

Another starter on this project might be a 1 inch to 6 miles scale which
would get most of Cornwall onto an A4 sheet with insets in the sea areas for
Scilly and North Cornwall (as did the old Bart's).  This scale could also
carry some relief and would provide for more place-name information that the
one I circulated.  I am not sure who originated this and would welcome
information.   It was an excellent effort for its scale.  It delineated and
named the hundreds which is useful as the districts are now defunct since
the unitary authority was created.

 

The place-name spellings need some care.  I understand that Craig's list is
a composite spelling between historic forms, SWF and KS.  It would also be
valuable to take advantage of the place-name resources of the Institute
place-name archive, the Place-name and Signage Panel, and any list of
Oliver's which is in public access.

 

Best wishes - Ken

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of
Christian Semmens
Sent: 06 February 2013 12:49


To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place-Names & maps

 

Hi Ken,

I'll make a much smaller one, perhaps starting with Tresco or St Marys, That
way you should be able to download it and see it. This first one was simply
a test and full of unnecessary detail, which is why it is so big.

Christian

 

 

On 6 February 2013 11:49, Ken MacKinnon <ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:

Christian / Herbie, and friends.

 

'Broad'band here runs at 0.477 m/ps download and 0.230  upload - so I am not
making much progress  with this one and shall probably have to abort it.

 

Thanks nevertheless - Ken

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of
Christian Semmens


Sent: 05 February 2013 17:12

To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place-Names & maps

 

Hi, apologies to those on dial-up (if there are any these days)

a 6.3MB SVG file with a few artifacts, but detailed enough to give you an
idea of what is possible.

The coastline is a little flooded, but all the roiads and paths are clearly
visible.

 

You can't do anything with this file other than look at it, but that is a
start. You will need something that can show SVG files, I believe most
browsers can do that, but it may make your browser choke as it is so big.
But this is just the first step.

Good luck!

Christian

 

On 5 February 2013 16:41, Christian Semmens <christian.semmens at gmail.com>
wrote:

Sounds good, It is the backgrounds that are going to prove interesting.

I did a quick download and am partway through a render to an SVG image file,
but I think it must be a HUGE file as it has been going for half the day and
shows no signs of stopping anytime soon.

If it does work I will see if I can mail it out. This is a first stab and
will be basically an OSM map of West Penwith, but it shoudl show us what is
possible with the data we have. It might have everything on it in which case
it will be as cluttered as hell (in which case I won't send it), but we will
just have to wait and see.

If it is too large perhaps we could start with the Scillies, a
geographically much smaller area?

 

Christian

 

On 5 February 2013 16:23, e-mail kevin.blackburn1
<kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

If, as a first step, a set of sites, a route and suitable labels can be
sorted/agreed for the Lergh an Yeth, then Christian could get the symbol and
bilingual labels onto the map as the second step. The steps 3/4 could be the
leaflet/guidebook, and the plaques themselves.

 

Christian, let me know if you need a hand with anything (in parallel to your
first steps with OpenStreetMap I downloaded the Miniscale OS Opendata maps -
they are quite good too for overlaying of features you want; but I did not
get very far or technical, mainly considered using it as a backdrop vector
for new graphics and text layers).

 

Regards

 

Herbie

 

On 5 February 2013 15:17, Ken MacKinnon <ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:

A gowtha ker,

 

I was going to add to an earlier email that if a Cornish language map was
brought out that one of the symbols might indeed be such sites that I have
suggested should constitute a 'Cornish Language Trail /  Lergh an Yeth.  I
floated this idea some years ago and felt that the sites themselves should
be signboarded / blue plaqued bilingually with accompanying guide book /
leaflets.    Something similar has been initiated here with the Gaelic Rings
projects and has involved tourist, travel and transport undertakings and
commissioned authors.

 

-        An ken Ken.

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Janice
Lobb
Sent: 05 February 2013 11:37


To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place-Names & maps

 

At some stage it would be really nice to have a sort of "pilgrimage" map
that showed all the places where people can see some Cornish  and where
people significant in the revival lived, etc.

 

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:33 AM, Herbie Blackburn
<kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

Craig, Ken, Christian hag oll,

 

I may just have a go at this when I have some time - I have some
'semi-professional' graphics skills, producing tomes / posters for client's
significant birthdays, and have the software to do this. I also have a
friend who has produced published maps of our local area. I'd have to
research the legal / copyright situation with regard to getting an accurate
layout of Cornwall, and symbols etc. that I can use (probably by use of the
OS Opendata facility), and also rely on you all for direction / objectives
for the project, content editing, feedback and so on.

 

This would be after my daughters wedding and subject to a lot of issues that
I might have the time to resolve - I'm confident I could produce something,
I'm just not 100% familiar with the legal side, and how we go about
including content that is obviously not 100% original.

 

What do people think? If someone more qualified is keen to take this on,
then please don't hesitate, but I do like a challenge.

 

Regards

 

Herbie

 

eMail: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com

P Please consider the environment before printing this eMail - thanks

 

  _____  

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of
Christian Semmens


Sent: 04 February 2013 13:21

To: Standard Cornish discussion list

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Place-Names & maps

 

I think that is an excellent idea Herbie, a folded map and a poster size one
would be great... All we need is an artist.  :)

Christian

 

On 4 February 2013 12:35, Herbie Blackburn <kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com>
wrote:

Excited to have received my copy of Craig's 'A Concise Dictionary of Cornish
Place-Names'. Looks very comprehensive and well researched, and looking
forward to reading it and then having it by for reference.

Following on from the maps' emails, any thought of producing a Cornish
Place-Name Map based on the contents of this book? It could be a great
additional asset, and may even be an attractive tourist souvenir if pitched
right. I could imagine picking one up at one of those many whirly book/card
stands in the shops of Cornwall, especially it had the air of authenticity
the book has.

Regards

Herbie

eMail: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com

P Please consider the environment before printing this eMail - thanks

 


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-- 
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Sent from my WebMail
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Sent from my WebMail
tel: 07791193602 

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