[Spellyans] Disappearance of Cornish placenames from OS maps

e-mail kevin.blackburn1 kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com
Sun Feb 17 12:59:40 GMT 2013


Janice,

In Craig's book he has: Penwothes (1327), i.e. Penwodhys meaning 'head of a
place of streams'.

Herbie


On 17 February 2013 12:47, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:

> What does Penwethers mean? Is it something to do with trees or (as PH
> argued) something to do with ploughed land
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> OS has a lot to answer for. I presume they are responsible for changing
>> the name of my hamlet from Cooks to Cocks (we have no signs as people with
>> a perverted sense of humour keep stealing them).
>> Who, though altered Penwethers to Penweathers near County Hall?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>wrote:
>>
>>> First, let me say that the current 1:100,000 O.S. travel map of Cornwall
>>> is a disgrace to cartography and, as you say, Ken, the Bartholomew maps
>>> were vastly better (although still with the odd mistake like showing Zennor
>>> Quoit in the wrong place).
>>>
>>> That Oliver chose to base his book on the names shown on the previous
>>> edition of that OS map was, I think, a mistake because it contains a
>>> disproportionate number of non-Cornish names.
>>>
>>>  The disappearance of Landewednack is a mystery, especially when you
>>> consider that this southernmost parish is itself "Landewednack".  It's even
>>> absent on the current edition of the 1:25,000 map, being replaced by
>>> "Church Cove", even though it's inland.
>>>
>>> Church Cove, as a coastal feature, is another modern name, and is absent
>>> from the 1813 1st edition 1" OS map.  in 1851, the cove was "Perran Vose"
>>> but later OS maps relocated the name to another cove to the north, now
>>> "Parn Voose Cove" (that awful tautology again that the OS insists on -
>>> Perran/Parn is for Por(th) an [Fos]).
>>>
>>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith:  "Gwennap Head" didn't appear until 1888, and no one
>>> can work out the origin of this.  The Gwennap family is known in St Levan
>>> parish but they don't seem to have been landowners at the headland.
>>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith, in various spellings, appears on all maps prior to 1888.
>>>  The OS does include the name on the current 1:25,000 map, but as a minor
>>> name with no real indication as to which feature it represents.  "Gwennap
>>> Head" is in a larger font.  Tol-Pedn-Penwith is missing from the current
>>> 1:50,000 map, the quality of which has sadly diminished in recent years.
>>>  The last few editions show the fogou of Pendeen Vau in entirely the wrong
>>> place.
>>>
>>> Just to the E of Penberth Cove, the OS show an offshore reef as
>>> "Gazells", with the nearby cove as "Le Scathe Cove".  (an) gasel, "the
>>> armpit", is quite obviously a cove name, reflecting its indented shape.
>>>  The Burnewhall estate map of 1770 shows that the OS has transposed the two
>>> names, as it clearly marks the reef as "Lech Skath", (boat ledge).
>>>
>>> The OS infuriatingly alters spellings, too.  The hill they show as "Carn
>>> Galver" - a spelling used by the National Trust, etc.  The authentic name
>>> is "Carn Galva".  The OS clearly do not understand that even the inclusion
>>> of that final R alters the traditional pronunciation (as, in Cornwall, we
>>> pronounce final R.  In the Home Counties, they don't - there you will hear
>>> "solicituh", not "solicitor").
>>>
>>> You'd never know that, at Botallack Cliffs, "De Narrow Zawn" (OS) is
>>> Sawen Dynerow, "pennies chasm" - there having been a rich vein of tin
>>> there.  Or that the nearby Loe Warren is simply "lowarn" (fox) - animal
>>> names are commonly used for coastal rock features.  Gazick (an gasek - "the
>>> mare") is evidently another rock name, but the OS now applies it to a cove.
>>>
>>> Gurnard's Head is a relatively modern English name: there is no
>>> indication on any map that it was once Ynyal, "desolate".
>>>
>>> Cape Cornwall is another, coined by chart makers just prior to 1600.
>>>  The Cornish name can only be found on earlier maps, such as Norden's from
>>> 1584.  (Kilgoodh Ust - "goose-back at St Just" - a perfect description of
>>> its very distinctive shape).
>>>
>>> I could go on….probably for the rest of the day!!  But work calls.
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2013 Gen 29, at 16:16, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>>
>>> *A gowetha-oll,*
>>> * *
>>> *A point was recently made on Spellyans regarding the disappearance of
>>> Cornish place-names from OS maps, and in particular Tol-Pedn-Penwith and
>>> Landewednack.*
>>> * *
>>> *Tol-Pedn-Penwith is certainly present on the recently published
>>> 1:25,000 series.   Tol-Pedn-Penwith is printed on  Explorer 7 Sheet, Land’s
>>> End, Penzance and St. Ives (dated 1995) at GR 365 214 .  Later editions of
>>> this sheet are numbered 102.  I would be grateful for information on more
>>> recently updated editions.*
>>> * *
>>> *The place-name Landewednack is indeed absent from Sheet 103 The
>>> Lizard, Falmouth & Helston (dated  1996) at GR 712 126.   Instead
>>> Landewednack Church and village are named as ‘Church Cove’.   Again, I
>>> would be grateful for information on the latest edition.*
>>> * *
>>> *Both names occur on the OS 50,000 First Series.  Sheet 203 Land’s End
>>> and The Lizard have both names on my copy of the map, dated 1974.
>>>  Landewednack is printed in upright type indicting a main village, as
>>> compared with Lizard printed in sloping (italic) type, indicating a
>>> subsidiary village.   I would be grateful to know what the situation is on
>>> the most recently published edition.  *
>>> * *
>>> *Does ‘Church Cove’ as the name of the settlement around Landewednack
>>> church have any actual currency?  Does anyone know what its inhabitants
>>> actually call it today?   Does the local council  (now Cornwall Council)
>>> refer to it as ‘Landewednack’ or ‘Church Cove’?    Is there a settlement
>>> sign, and if so, what name does it carry?*
>>> * *
>>> *The old ‘Bart’s Half-Inch’ series (Sheet 1) featured both
>>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith and Landewednack, and indeed a wealth of other
>>> micro-toponymy.   So did its successor the National Map Series at 1:100,000
>>> scale.  Bartholomews had discontinued this series by 2000, which was a
>>> great loss and pity.    A map at this scale covering the whole county area
>>> was extremely useful for all sorts of purposes, and the Ordnance Survey has
>>> recently published a successor.*
>>> * *
>>> *This is the Travel Map at the same 1:100,000 scale, Sheet 1
>>> Cornwall.   My copy is Edition D, dated 2006.   Neither Tol-Pedn-Penwith
>>> nor Landewednack is featured, with much else missing from the county’s
>>> micro-toponymy.  However Church Cove is featured, in a font signifying a
>>> minor village.   All-in-all I estimate that the map carries about 620
>>> place-names.  Relief is hinted at by slight hill-shading and layer
>>> colouring but only for the 200, 600, and 1,000 feet contour intervals.
>>> Tourist attractions are however copiously featured, and road statuses are
>>> emphasised.  These are its chief virtues.   Otherwise it is
>>> cartographically much inferior to its Bart’s predecessors.*
>>> * *
>>> *Someone with authority should be making waves about all of this.  The
>>> OS are supposed to take cognisance of local usage.   If the inhabitants of
>>> Landewednack have decided to call the village ‘Church Cove’ this would
>>> explain the substitution, but I think it unlikely that they have done so.
>>> *
>>> * *
>>> *In Wales the OS gives most of the more important names bilingually.
>>> In Scotland the OS is beginning to do something similar In  the Gaelic
>>> areas.   In the Western Isles the local authority Comhairle nan Eilean went
>>> over to monolingual Gaelic for its direction and place signage, and the OS
>>> followed suit.   More recently the council fainthearts reverted to
>>> bilingual usage for these.  It will be interesting to see what OS does.
>>> However in Scotland at least the OS does have some sort of public awareness
>>> and makes an effort to communicate and consult with its public.   What
>>> happens in Cornwall?*
>>> * *
>>> *A few years ago a map was produced on Spellyans with place names in
>>> Cornish.   The cartography was of a good standard for its scale.    There
>>> is a case to carry the process a stage or two further.   There would be a
>>> good level of demand for such a map, and now an increasing number of
>>> uses.   It would be a useful tool In the process of re-Cornicising
>>> Cornwall’s place-names, and of establishing an authoritative and
>>> readily-available source of place-names based upon  sound historical,
>>> linguistic and toponymic research.   A map at 1:250,000 scale (the old
>>> ‘quarter-inch’ to the mile) would enable a fulsome level of detail, without
>>> being too unwieldy as to size.  It would have the further virtue that its
>>> selection of place-names would be of similar scope to that of Oliver
>>> Padel’s ‘A Popular Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names’ (1988), in which he
>>> chose to feature the names on the OS 1:25,000 scale map of Cornwall, some
>>> 1,000 or so in total. (It thus omits Landewednack itself but includes
>>> Church Cove, as dating from 1888 and being named from ‘Landewednack church
>>> above it’, i.e. as a coastal figure and not as a settlement name.)   A
>>> further resource for mapping is the Institute’s Survey of Cornish
>>> Place-names.*
>>> * *
>>> *I believe that Bart’s can still supply at reasonable rates base maps
>>> at various scales of a very high cartographic standard for overprinting
>>> with place-names and other features.  The results are aesthetically
>>> attractive and highly representative.*
>>> * *
>>> *One of the currently available tourist maps of Cornwall is subtitled
>>> Kernow and has some of its more important names given bilingually.
>>> However there appears to be little consistency on the spelling conventions
>>> used for them.   The appearance of Cornish versions of the names on this
>>> map does not appear to have frightened the horses nor to have depressed
>>> sales.*
>>> * *
>>> *A friend of mine, Roy Pedersen, brought out a Gaelic map of Scotland
>>> some years ago, and this proved a best seller, running into numerous
>>> reprints and editions, and spawning a succession of more detailed area
>>> maps.   I would not expect a similar initiative for Cornish mapping to run
>>> at a loss.   Such an initiative is long overdue and indeed essential if
>>> authentic versions of Cornish place-names are to be popularised, in place
>>> of made-up names and respellings in inappropriate and non-historic
>>> orthographies.   Otherwise it is Gresham’s Law.*
>>> * *
>>> *Gorhemmynadow – an ken Ken*
>>> * *
>>> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Janice Lobb
>>> *Sent:* 26 January 2013 22:32
>>> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] use usage etc****
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> I don't use Dick's spelling for the same reason - but I find him an
>>> invaluable guide to pronunciation****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>> It's confusing because Dick has spelt this word (and the language in
>>> general) several different ways since he began to promote Late Cornish.*
>>> ***
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> It's why I reluctantly gave up teaching Late Cornish in the 90s.  I'd
>>> teach my students one thing and, three days later, Dick would change it
>>> all.  We couldn't keep going like that.  All these years later and he's
>>> still doing it!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Craig****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 2013 Gen 26, at 18:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:****
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> Or do you mean ‹ûsya›? This would be /ˈɪʊzjɐ/ and I would write ‹ûs› for
>>> the noun and leave it to the speaker whether s/he wants to say /ɪʊs/ or
>>> /ɪʊz/. ****
>>>
>>> Dan****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Jan 26, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Janice Lobb wrote:****
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> would you end the word with s or ss?****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Daniel Prohaska <
>>> daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>> A very good question. For the SFW Review I'm proposing <û> as the graph
>>> for this lexical set. My proposal thus has two vowels with a diacritic
>>> marker: the afore mentioned <û> for /iu/ in loan words and <ü> for RMC /y/
>>> ~ RLC /i/ (e.g. <tüs>).
>>> Dan****
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26.01.2013, at 15:04, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > SWF has usyans
>>> > Dick has (amongst other things) ius
>>> > How can I achieve Dick's pronunciation with a spelling that is
>>> compatible with SWF/KS?****
>>>
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>>
>
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-- 
Kevin 'Herbie' Blackburn
Sent from my WebMail
tel: 07791193602
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