[Spellyans] Disappearance of Cornish placenames from OS maps

Janice Lobb janicelobb at gmail.com
Sun Feb 17 13:50:06 GMT 2013


You'd have to walk quite a long way down from Penwethers before you came to
any obvious stream - and it is very close to Nancevallon Woods


On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:59 PM, e-mail kevin.blackburn1 <
kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Janice,
>
> In Craig's book he has: Penwothes (1327), i.e. Penwodhys meaning 'head of
> a place of streams'.
>
> Herbie
>
>
> On 17 February 2013 12:47, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What does Penwethers mean? Is it something to do with trees or (as PH
>> argued) something to do with ploughed land
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> OS has a lot to answer for. I presume they are responsible for changing
>>> the name of my hamlet from Cooks to Cocks (we have no signs as people with
>>> a perverted sense of humour keep stealing them).
>>> Who, though altered Penwethers to Penweathers near County Hall?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> First, let me say that the current 1:100,000 O.S. travel map of
>>>> Cornwall is a disgrace to cartography and, as you say, Ken, the Bartholomew
>>>> maps were vastly better (although still with the odd mistake like showing
>>>> Zennor Quoit in the wrong place).
>>>>
>>>> That Oliver chose to base his book on the names shown on the previous
>>>> edition of that OS map was, I think, a mistake because it contains a
>>>> disproportionate number of non-Cornish names.
>>>>
>>>>  The disappearance of Landewednack is a mystery, especially when you
>>>> consider that this southernmost parish is itself "Landewednack".  It's even
>>>> absent on the current edition of the 1:25,000 map, being replaced by
>>>> "Church Cove", even though it's inland.
>>>>
>>>> Church Cove, as a coastal feature, is another modern name, and is
>>>> absent from the 1813 1st edition 1" OS map.  in 1851, the cove was "Perran
>>>> Vose" but later OS maps relocated the name to another cove to the north,
>>>> now "Parn Voose Cove" (that awful tautology again that the OS insists on -
>>>> Perran/Parn is for Por(th) an [Fos]).
>>>>
>>>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith:  "Gwennap Head" didn't appear until 1888, and no one
>>>> can work out the origin of this.  The Gwennap family is known in St Levan
>>>> parish but they don't seem to have been landowners at the headland.
>>>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith, in various spellings, appears on all maps prior to 1888.
>>>>  The OS does include the name on the current 1:25,000 map, but as a minor
>>>> name with no real indication as to which feature it represents.  "Gwennap
>>>> Head" is in a larger font.  Tol-Pedn-Penwith is missing from the current
>>>> 1:50,000 map, the quality of which has sadly diminished in recent years.
>>>>  The last few editions show the fogou of Pendeen Vau in entirely the wrong
>>>> place.
>>>>
>>>> Just to the E of Penberth Cove, the OS show an offshore reef as
>>>> "Gazells", with the nearby cove as "Le Scathe Cove".  (an) gasel, "the
>>>> armpit", is quite obviously a cove name, reflecting its indented shape.
>>>>  The Burnewhall estate map of 1770 shows that the OS has transposed the two
>>>> names, as it clearly marks the reef as "Lech Skath", (boat ledge).
>>>>
>>>> The OS infuriatingly alters spellings, too.  The hill they show as
>>>> "Carn Galver" - a spelling used by the National Trust, etc.  The authentic
>>>> name is "Carn Galva".  The OS clearly do not understand that even the
>>>> inclusion of that final R alters the traditional pronunciation (as, in
>>>> Cornwall, we pronounce final R.  In the Home Counties, they don't - there
>>>> you will hear "solicituh", not "solicitor").
>>>>
>>>> You'd never know that, at Botallack Cliffs, "De Narrow Zawn" (OS) is
>>>> Sawen Dynerow, "pennies chasm" - there having been a rich vein of tin
>>>> there.  Or that the nearby Loe Warren is simply "lowarn" (fox) - animal
>>>> names are commonly used for coastal rock features.  Gazick (an gasek - "the
>>>> mare") is evidently another rock name, but the OS now applies it to a cove.
>>>>
>>>> Gurnard's Head is a relatively modern English name: there is no
>>>> indication on any map that it was once Ynyal, "desolate".
>>>>
>>>> Cape Cornwall is another, coined by chart makers just prior to 1600.
>>>>  The Cornish name can only be found on earlier maps, such as Norden's from
>>>> 1584.  (Kilgoodh Ust - "goose-back at St Just" - a perfect description of
>>>> its very distinctive shape).
>>>>
>>>> I could go on….probably for the rest of the day!!  But work calls.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2013 Gen 29, at 16:16, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> *A gowetha-oll,*
>>>> * *
>>>> *A point was recently made on Spellyans regarding the disappearance of
>>>> Cornish place-names from OS maps, and in particular Tol-Pedn-Penwith and
>>>> Landewednack.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *Tol-Pedn-Penwith is certainly present on the recently published
>>>> 1:25,000 series.   Tol-Pedn-Penwith is printed on  Explorer 7 Sheet, Land’s
>>>> End, Penzance and St. Ives (dated 1995) at GR 365 214 .  Later editions of
>>>> this sheet are numbered 102.  I would be grateful for information on more
>>>> recently updated editions.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *The place-name Landewednack is indeed absent from Sheet 103 The
>>>> Lizard, Falmouth & Helston (dated  1996) at GR 712 126.   Instead
>>>> Landewednack Church and village are named as ‘Church Cove’.   Again, I
>>>> would be grateful for information on the latest edition.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *Both names occur on the OS 50,000 First Series.  Sheet 203 Land’s End
>>>> and The Lizard have both names on my copy of the map, dated 1974.
>>>>  Landewednack is printed in upright type indicting a main village, as
>>>> compared with Lizard printed in sloping (italic) type, indicating a
>>>> subsidiary village.   I would be grateful to know what the situation is on
>>>> the most recently published edition.  *
>>>> * *
>>>> *Does ‘Church Cove’ as the name of the settlement around Landewednack
>>>> church have any actual currency?  Does anyone know what its inhabitants
>>>> actually call it today?   Does the local council  (now Cornwall Council)
>>>> refer to it as ‘Landewednack’ or ‘Church Cove’?    Is there a settlement
>>>> sign, and if so, what name does it carry?*
>>>> * *
>>>> *The old ‘Bart’s Half-Inch’ series (Sheet 1) featured both
>>>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith and Landewednack, and indeed a wealth of other
>>>> micro-toponymy.   So did its successor the National Map Series at 1:100,000
>>>> scale.  Bartholomews had discontinued this series by 2000, which was a
>>>> great loss and pity.    A map at this scale covering the whole county area
>>>> was extremely useful for all sorts of purposes, and the Ordnance Survey has
>>>> recently published a successor.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *This is the Travel Map at the same 1:100,000 scale, Sheet 1
>>>> Cornwall.   My copy is Edition D, dated 2006.   Neither Tol-Pedn-Penwith
>>>> nor Landewednack is featured, with much else missing from the county’s
>>>> micro-toponymy.  However Church Cove is featured, in a font signifying a
>>>> minor village.   All-in-all I estimate that the map carries about 620
>>>> place-names.  Relief is hinted at by slight hill-shading and layer
>>>> colouring but only for the 200, 600, and 1,000 feet contour intervals.
>>>> Tourist attractions are however copiously featured, and road statuses are
>>>> emphasised.  These are its chief virtues.   Otherwise it is
>>>> cartographically much inferior to its Bart’s predecessors.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *Someone with authority should be making waves about all of this.  The
>>>> OS are supposed to take cognisance of local usage.   If the inhabitants of
>>>> Landewednack have decided to call the village ‘Church Cove’ this would
>>>> explain the substitution, but I think it unlikely that they have done so.
>>>> *
>>>> * *
>>>> *In Wales the OS gives most of the more important names bilingually.
>>>> In Scotland the OS is beginning to do something similar In  the Gaelic
>>>> areas.   In the Western Isles the local authority Comhairle nan Eilean went
>>>> over to monolingual Gaelic for its direction and place signage, and the OS
>>>> followed suit.   More recently the council fainthearts reverted to
>>>> bilingual usage for these.  It will be interesting to see what OS does.
>>>> However in Scotland at least the OS does have some sort of public awareness
>>>> and makes an effort to communicate and consult with its public.   What
>>>> happens in Cornwall?*
>>>> * *
>>>> *A few years ago a map was produced on Spellyans with place names in
>>>> Cornish.   The cartography was of a good standard for its scale.    There
>>>> is a case to carry the process a stage or two further.   There would be a
>>>> good level of demand for such a map, and now an increasing number of
>>>> uses.   It would be a useful tool In the process of re-Cornicising
>>>> Cornwall’s place-names, and of establishing an authoritative and
>>>> readily-available source of place-names based upon  sound historical,
>>>> linguistic and toponymic research.   A map at 1:250,000 scale (the old
>>>> ‘quarter-inch’ to the mile) would enable a fulsome level of detail, without
>>>> being too unwieldy as to size.  It would have the further virtue that its
>>>> selection of place-names would be of similar scope to that of Oliver
>>>> Padel’s ‘A Popular Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names’ (1988), in which he
>>>> chose to feature the names on the OS 1:25,000 scale map of Cornwall, some
>>>> 1,000 or so in total. (It thus omits Landewednack itself but includes
>>>> Church Cove, as dating from 1888 and being named from ‘Landewednack church
>>>> above it’, i.e. as a coastal figure and not as a settlement name.)   A
>>>> further resource for mapping is the Institute’s Survey of Cornish
>>>> Place-names.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *I believe that Bart’s can still supply at reasonable rates base maps
>>>> at various scales of a very high cartographic standard for overprinting
>>>> with place-names and other features.  The results are aesthetically
>>>> attractive and highly representative.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *One of the currently available tourist maps of Cornwall is subtitled
>>>> Kernow and has some of its more important names given bilingually.
>>>> However there appears to be little consistency on the spelling conventions
>>>> used for them.   The appearance of Cornish versions of the names on this
>>>> map does not appear to have frightened the horses nor to have depressed
>>>> sales.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *A friend of mine, Roy Pedersen, brought out a Gaelic map of Scotland
>>>> some years ago, and this proved a best seller, running into numerous
>>>> reprints and editions, and spawning a succession of more detailed area
>>>> maps.   I would not expect a similar initiative for Cornish mapping to run
>>>> at a loss.   Such an initiative is long overdue and indeed essential if
>>>> authentic versions of Cornish place-names are to be popularised, in place
>>>> of made-up names and respellings in inappropriate and non-historic
>>>> orthographies.   Otherwise it is Gresham’s Law.*
>>>> * *
>>>> *Gorhemmynadow – an ken Ken*
>>>> * *
>>>> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of
>>>>  *Janice Lobb
>>>> *Sent:* 26 January 2013 22:32
>>>> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] use usage etc****
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> I don't use Dick's spelling for the same reason - but I find him an
>>>> invaluable guide to pronunciation****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>>>> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>> It's confusing because Dick has spelt this word (and the language in
>>>> general) several different ways since he began to promote Late Cornish.
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> It's why I reluctantly gave up teaching Late Cornish in the 90s.  I'd
>>>> teach my students one thing and, three days later, Dick would change it
>>>> all.  We couldn't keep going like that.  All these years later and he's
>>>> still doing it!****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Craig****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On 2013 Gen 26, at 18:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> Or do you mean ‹ûsya›? This would be /ˈɪʊzjɐ/ and I would write ‹ûs›
>>>> for the noun and leave it to the speaker whether s/he wants to say /ɪʊs/ or
>>>> /ɪʊz/. ****
>>>>
>>>> Dan****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 26, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Janice Lobb wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> would you end the word with s or ss?****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Daniel Prohaska <
>>>> daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>> A very good question. For the SFW Review I'm proposing <û> as the graph
>>>> for this lexical set. My proposal thus has two vowels with a diacritic
>>>> marker: the afore mentioned <û> for /iu/ in loan words and <ü> for RMC /y/
>>>> ~ RLC /i/ (e.g. <tüs>).
>>>> Dan****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 26.01.2013, at 15:04, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > SWF has usyans
>>>> > Dick has (amongst other things) ius
>>>> > How can I achieve Dick's pronunciation with a spelling that is
>>>> compatible with SWF/KS?****
>>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Kevin 'Herbie' Blackburn
> Sent from my WebMail
> tel: 07791193602
>
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