[Spellyans] cledh etc

[Chris Parkinson]

Michael writes that it is easy to transcribe Cornish from all periods into 
KS. But in Desky Kernowek chapter 40 LC isn't just transcibed. There are 
small grammatical changes which I think are unacceptable in what is 
purported to be just an orthological transcription of LC. This is also the 
case in the KS version of Jowan Chy an Hordh p373 (KS 'hordh'  has also 
acquired /dh/ which LC doesn't have, but that is a slightly different issue)

The sort of small grammatical changes that I mean are when KS writes 
'Dhywgh' or 'dhywgh why' rather than LC 'dhe whei'
KS always writes 'me a vedn' with 'a' when for LC 'me vedn' is OK
LC 'medh' is always preceded by 'yn' in KS
LC has 'pa thera diwadh an vledhan' while KS writes 'Pan yth era dywethan 
vledhen' or later 'Pan th'era'  which is better. JCH 5,7,9
 Why does KS change these sorts of things?

Michael also points out that nearly all Cornish speakers are L2 learners. Of 
course. So for them them the spoken language should be primary too, as it is 
for most modern language learners today. But even more critical is the need 
for young learners to be exposed to  a fluent spoken language which is what 
Lhuyd tried to describe though he was well aware of the scribal tradition. 
Writing full literary forms should come later. I make this argument coming 
from a Welsh speaking background, and I make it because I have see the 
policy work. Why does KS seem to be dragging its feet as regards using LC 
spoken forms ? As I have mentioned before, I get the impression that they 
are not considered 'good' enough - not 'correct'.  What happened to 'tota 
cornicitas'?

Chris
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] cledh etc


> On 13 Jan 2013, at 18:36, Chris Parkinson <brynbow at btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Nicholas writes that the trouble with using LC as the basis for the 
>> revival is that it cuts learners off from the bulk of Cornish literature.
>
> Because in the later period, the habits of the scribal tradition are lost 
> and either Lhuydian or English-based (sometimes ad hoc) conventions are 
> used. Look at chapter 40 of "Desky Kernowek". It is easy to transcribe 
> Cornish from all periods into KS. The look of Later Cornish is somewhat 
> different, but that's because most of the corpus uses conventions from the 
> scribal tradition.
>
>> You could argue that using the scribal tradition, i.e. the written 
>> language, prevents learners from acquiring a fluent spoken language.
>
> By scribal tradition, we mean the set of orthographic conventions 
> ("graphs") used to spell the language.
>
>> Lhuyd has given us the main approximation we have to the spoken language 
>> when last used. Speech is primary in language, both historically and in 
>> L1 learning.
>
> Nearly all Cornish speakers are L2 learners.
>
>> Literary forms normally come later in an educational setting. LC users, 
>> by following Lhuyd  to a large extent, follow this order of development. 
>> So what is needed is indeed an orthography which recognises the close 
>> relation between  written and spoken Cornish. Of course they are the same 
>> language! But LC users are finding that although both KS and SWFL make 
>> allowances for the written/spoken distinction they are not enough, and 
>> also there is still occasionally the suggestion that the primary spoken 
>> language is somehow sub-standard.
>
> I know some LC users who are adapting very well. They feel a certain pull 
> away from 1700 closer to 1600, because that's one of the thing KS tries to 
> do: express a 1600-base centre for the Revived Language, rather than the 
> poles of 1450 and 1750.
>
> It appears to me that Ken George considers LC to be a different language 
> and largely ignores it. Mistake. And it appears to me that Dick Gendall 
> considers LC to be better in some way than earlier forms. Mistake.
>
> In Nicholas' translations he has taken from all periods.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
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