[Spellyans] cledh etc

Christian Semmens christian.semmens at gmail.com
Sun Jan 13 21:14:50 GMT 2013


Sadly Janice, that bus has perhaps left.

We are now facing a situation where a compromise orthography is in the
final stages of being agreed.

The SWF is important because, unlike other orthographies, it will be touted
as a consensus form and as such, the future of written Cornish. It will
attract finance and, regardless of any academic unsuitability, will be used
by new learners and by Cornwall Council. Should Cornish ever appear in
schools it will be this that they are taught. New learners want to learn
the official Cornish, and this will be it.

Meanwhile we all quibble about UC, the infallibility of Nance or Late
variants. All irrelevant now (in relation to the SWF).

Sadly, the SWF is a KK lookalike and I would bet that that is the way it
will stay, etymological claptrap and all, as the next group is also biased
in favour of KK. SWF/T, the traditional variant, is a depreciated and
distinctly dowdy Cinderella, doomed to hide in the shadows for kooks and
cranks to use if they want (OK, the metaphor has started to break down here
as this sounds like Ciderella has a shady side!). Sadly, I doubt this
Cinderalla will get to go to the ball. I think it likely that no-one will
use SWF/T, as they are already wedded to their old variants or have a
better option in KS.

If this is the case, and we ratify the SWF in its KK style dominant form,
then traditional spelling is on its way out. However I can see no mechanism
for rejecting it if it fails to be fit for purpose, which I suspect will be
the case. Then we are back to the old trenches, but this time with a
bigger, well funded opponent that is firmly lined up with the old enemy,
stylistically if not phonologically, but there will be time for that in the
future.

I suspect the battle for VA was a Pyrrhic victory. I don't doubt its
necessity, I just think the ground lost to accommodate it was too much.

Christian


On 13 January 2013 20:39, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:

> I do so agree. So, I would like a compromise solution that takes more
> notice of the requirements of LC. To my mind the discussion regarding the
> merits/demerits of KS/KK/UCR/UC completely sidelines LC. Or maybe I'm just
> paranoid. KS comes closest but not close enough. Why do you suppose so many
> LC speakers have fallen by the wayside?
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Chris Parkinson <brynbow at btinternet.com>wrote:
>
>> **
>> Nicholas writes that the trouble with using LC as the basis for the
>> revival is that it cuts learners off from the bulk of Cornish literature.
>> You could argue that using the scribal tradition, i.e. the written
>> language, prevents learners from acquiring a fluent spoken language. Lhuyd
>> has given us the main approximation we have to the spoken language when
>> last used. Speech is primary in language, both historically and in L1
>> learning. Literary forms normally come later in an educational setting. LC
>> users, by following Lhuyd  to a large extent, follow this order of
>> development. So what is needed is indeed an orthography which recognises
>> the close relation between  written and spoken Cornish. Of course they are
>> the same language! But LC users are finding that although both KS and
>> SWFL make allowances for the written/spoken distinction they are not
>> enough, and also there is still occasionally the suggestion that the
>> primary spoken language is somehow sub-standard.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> *From:* Nicholas Williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 13, 2013 2:31 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] cledh etc
>>
>> Middle and Late Cornish are not different languages. Indeed some of the
>> features which we associate with LC are found in the Passion Poem,
>> e.g. genama 'with me', ve for me 'I', danon for danvon, ze wy for dhywgh
>> why, etc.
>> The trouble with using LC as the basis for the revival is that it cuts
>> learners off from the bulk of Cornish literature.
>> KS is designed to allow a variety of pronunciations, both Middle and
>> Late, within the same system.
>> The Creation of the World is the latest text to use something like the
>> traditional orthography but is sufficiently
>> late to be recognisable to the users of LC. That is why KS uses CW as its
>> starting point.
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>>  On 13 Jan 2013, at 13:51, Janice Lobb wrote:
>>
>> Isn't this part of the problem? Some of you see this as contemporaneous
>> with the scribes, while those of us who favour Modern Cornish see this as
>> the time when the language was LAST spoken (which is presumably closer to
>> what it would sound like now had it not died out). I don't care how
>> consonants are written, I'll go along with traditional or Lhuydian graphs,
>> but the vowels make me tear my hair out!
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
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