[Spellyans] cledh etc

e-mail kevin.blackburn1 kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com
Sun Jan 13 21:17:37 GMT 2013


I shall just use UC and UCR then! not interested in a Conlang!


On 13 January 2013 21:14, Christian Semmens <christian.semmens at gmail.com>wrote:

> Sadly Janice, that bus has perhaps left.
>
> We are now facing a situation where a compromise orthography is in the
> final stages of being agreed.
>
> The SWF is important because, unlike other orthographies, it will be
> touted as a consensus form and as such, the future of written Cornish. It
> will attract finance and, regardless of any academic unsuitability, will be
> used by new learners and by Cornwall Council. Should Cornish ever appear in
> schools it will be this that they are taught. New learners want to learn
> the official Cornish, and this will be it.
>
> Meanwhile we all quibble about UC, the infallibility of Nance or Late
> variants. All irrelevant now (in relation to the SWF).
>
> Sadly, the SWF is a KK lookalike and I would bet that that is the way it
> will stay, etymological claptrap and all, as the next group is also biased
> in favour of KK. SWF/T, the traditional variant, is a depreciated and
> distinctly dowdy Cinderella, doomed to hide in the shadows for kooks and
> cranks to use if they want (OK, the metaphor has started to break down here
> as this sounds like Ciderella has a shady side!). Sadly, I doubt this
> Cinderalla will get to go to the ball. I think it likely that no-one will
> use SWF/T, as they are already wedded to their old variants or have a
> better option in KS.
>
> If this is the case, and we ratify the SWF in its KK style dominant form,
> then traditional spelling is on its way out. However I can see no mechanism
> for rejecting it if it fails to be fit for purpose, which I suspect will be
> the case. Then we are back to the old trenches, but this time with a
> bigger, well funded opponent that is firmly lined up with the old enemy,
> stylistically if not phonologically, but there will be time for that in the
> future.
>
> I suspect the battle for VA was a Pyrrhic victory. I don't doubt its
> necessity, I just think the ground lost to accommodate it was too much.
>
> Christian
>
>
> On 13 January 2013 20:39, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I do so agree. So, I would like a compromise solution that takes more
>> notice of the requirements of LC. To my mind the discussion regarding the
>> merits/demerits of KS/KK/UCR/UC completely sidelines LC. Or maybe I'm just
>> paranoid. KS comes closest but not close enough. Why do you suppose so many
>> LC speakers have fallen by the wayside?
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Chris Parkinson <brynbow at btinternet.com>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>> Nicholas writes that the trouble with using LC as the basis for the
>>> revival is that it cuts learners off from the bulk of Cornish literature.
>>> You could argue that using the scribal tradition, i.e. the written
>>> language, prevents learners from acquiring a fluent spoken language. Lhuyd
>>> has given us the main approximation we have to the spoken language when
>>> last used. Speech is primary in language, both historically and in L1
>>> learning. Literary forms normally come later in an educational setting. LC
>>> users, by following Lhuyd  to a large extent, follow this order of
>>> development. So what is needed is indeed an orthography which recognises
>>> the close relation between  written and spoken Cornish. Of course they are
>>> the same language! But LC users are finding that although both KS and
>>> SWFL make allowances for the written/spoken distinction they are not
>>> enough, and also there is still occasionally the suggestion that the
>>> primary spoken language is somehow sub-standard.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> *From:* Nicholas Williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 13, 2013 2:31 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] cledh etc
>>>
>>> Middle and Late Cornish are not different languages. Indeed some of the
>>> features which we associate with LC are found in the Passion Poem,
>>> e.g. genama 'with me', ve for me 'I', danon for danvon, ze wy for dhywgh
>>> why, etc.
>>> The trouble with using LC as the basis for the revival is that it cuts
>>> learners off from the bulk of Cornish literature.
>>> KS is designed to allow a variety of pronunciations, both Middle and
>>> Late, within the same system.
>>> The Creation of the World is the latest text to use something like the
>>> traditional orthography but is sufficiently
>>> late to be recognisable to the users of LC. That is why KS uses CW as
>>> its starting point.
>>>
>>> Nicholas
>>>
>>>  On 13 Jan 2013, at 13:51, Janice Lobb wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't this part of the problem? Some of you see this as contemporaneous
>>> with the scribes, while those of us who favour Modern Cornish see this as
>>> the time when the language was LAST spoken (which is presumably closer to
>>> what it would sound like now had it not died out). I don't care how
>>> consonants are written, I'll go along with traditional or Lhuydian graphs,
>>> but the vowels make me tear my hair out!
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
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-- 
Kevin 'Herbie' Blackburn
Sent from my WebMail
tel: 07791193602
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