[Spellyans] Pronuncaiation

Janice Lobb janicelobb at gmail.com
Wed Jan 23 14:34:43 GMT 2013


I'm going to Tregedna. I've been twice before. It's very good-natured and
nobody criticises anyone else for their pronunciation - we just try very
hard to understand each other and to make ourselves understood - even if it
means that our conversations are not very intellectual! Most importantly we
talk in the language rather than about the language


On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Nicholas Williams
<njawilliams at gmail.com>wrote:

> Incidentally the word *freth* is used by many to mean 'fluent' in a
> language. This goes back to Nance and is not really legitimate, I think. I
> have collected the following examples of *freth* in the texts:
>
> *In vn stevya oll y eth bys yn pylat o Iustis vn ezow zozo yn **freth**yndelma a leuerys
> *‘Hurryingly they all went to Pilate who was a justice; a Jew
> emphatically spoke thus to him…’ PA 239ab
> *lyuyreugh whet pan theugh mar **freth** pyv a whyleugh* ‘say again,
> since you come so eagerly, who is it you seek’ PC 1115-16
> *otte lour kunys gyne whythyns lemmyn pup yn **freth** neb na whytho
> grens fannye* ‘here I have a lot of firewood; now let everyone blow
> assiduously. Let him who doesn’t blow fan’ PC 1241-43
> *syr doctors rys yv theugh whet bys ma fo gurys an dywet certan gynen
> laufurye rak an harlot a geus **freth* ‘sir doctors you must still, until
> the end be achieved, indeed travel with us, for the scoundrel talks glibly’
> PC 1829-32
> *myl weth a uyth an dyweth me a’n te re synt iouyn ha hakere es an
> dalleth rak henna tus ervys **freth** gor th’y wythe atermyn* ‘a thousand
> times worse, I swear by St Jovyn, and nastier than the beginning, therefore
> send alert armed men to guard him in time’ RD 348-52
> *duen scon in ban then meneth ha why covsugh arluth **freth** dotho agis
> galarov* ‘let us go up the mountain soon and you, vigorous lord, tell him
> your grief’ BM 2533-35
> *Gwayt bos war a’th lavarow, fatel rylly gorthyby, rag **fregh** ew eff *‘Take
> care of your words, how you will answer, for he is impetuous’ BK 555-57
> *Bethans mar **freth** del vynho, nu’m bues owne a gows orto gans gweras
> Christ, arluth nef *‘Let him be as insistent as he wishes, I am not
> afraid to speak to him with the help of Christ, Lord of heaven’ BK 558-60
> *pur welcum ough genan ny del on guer **freth** in casow* ‘you are very
> welcome here with us as we are effective men in battles’ BK 1363-64
> *Me ew myghtern in Island, maga **freth** avel turand, corf ankengy ha
> dylys* ‘I am king in Iceland, as impetuous as a tyrant, a grim and
> unrestrained man’ BK 1449-52
> *Fers of ha **freth**. Penagel a’m sorr gans cam, ef a’n gevyth tebal-lam*‘I am fierce and impetuous. Whoever angers me wrongly will get a nasty
> shock’ BK 1473-75
> *Der gras Christ a’gen pernas, me, Modreth, a lever **freth**: Arthur a
> vyth guarthevyas ha’y yskerans ef a feth* ‘By the grace of Christ who
> redeemed us, I Modred, speak emphatically: Arthur will be victorious and he
> will vainquish his foes’ BK 1486-89
> *Hail, arluth fers, **freth** gans cletha!* ‘Hail, fierce lord, vigorous
> with the sword!’ BK 1771-72
> *Hayl, arluth **freth** ha gallasak! *‘Hail, impetuous, powerful lord!’
> BK 1780-81
> *Kynth ewa **freth**, settyough e coyt (elhas, soweth!) in dan e doyt *‘Though
> he be bold, set it quick (alas and alack) under his plate’ BK 1821-24
> *Freth** y feth gweregys, mar peth rys dos the henna, ol the’th desyer*‘He will be vigorously helped, if it is necessary to come to that, all
> according to your desire’ BK 1846-48
> *Kyn fe mar **freth** du Halan an vlethan i’n kynsa deyth, me a gows war
> mab Malan ha ny’n sparya’, wor ow fayth!* ‘Though he be so bold at the
> Calends of the year, the first day, I will speak by the son of the Devil,
> that I shall not spare him, upon my faith!’ BK 1880-84
> *Lowena this, myghtern **freth**, gwerror fers ha galosak!* ‘Joy to you,
> bold king, a fierce and powerful warrior!’ BK 1996-97
> *The gyrryow **freth** in tyhogal a’th set in nans* ‘Your impudent words
> in truth will bring you down’ BK 2148-50
> *An trubut pan ve tochys, e worthyb o tyn ha **freth** hag ef garaw*‘When the tribute was discussed, his answer was sharp and impudent and he
> was grim’ BK 2264-64
> *Arthor Gornow, myghtern **freth**, a vyn orta syngy cas* ‘Arthur the
> Cornishman, a truculent king, will join battle with him’ BK 2502-03
> *Lowena thu’m arluth **freth**, gallosak drys tus an bys!* ‘Joy to my
> impetuous lord, powerful beyond all men in the world!’ BK 2554-55.
>
> Freth seems to mean 'assiduous, impetuous, eager, bold, impudent' rather
> than 'fluent'.
>
> I recently got an email about Tregedna in which it spoke of *tus nebes
> freth* i.e. fairly fluent people. Unfortunately *freth* doesn't mean
> 'fluent' and *tus* means
> 'men' not 'people'. The email also used the verb **gwellhe* of improving
> one's Cornish. *Gwellhe* is unattested. The word for 'to improve' in
> Cornish is *amendya*:
>
> *mar ny wreth **ymamendye** ef a wra tyn the punssye may leuerry ogh ellas
> * ‘if you do not improve, he will severely punish you, so that you will
> cry Oh, alas!’ OM 1526-28
> *hethe the’n dor my a’d pys scon ef a vyth **amendyys** my a’n scarf yn
> ta whare* ‘hand it down, I beg you; it will soon be set to right’ OM
> 2521-23
> *mara mynne **amendye** guel vye y thylyfrye hep drocoleth thyworthy’n*‘if he is willing to improve, it would be best for us to release him
> without harm from us’ PC 1862-64
> *ha mar ny fyn dynaghe y gow ha mercy crye hag **amendye** y treyson gans
> spern guregh y curene *‘and if he does not deny his lies and beg for
> mercy and amend his treason, crown him with thorns’ PC 2060-63
> *vnwyth a caffen hansell me a russa **amendie** *‘if I could only have
> breakfast, I should improve’ BM 110-11
> *yth ew gwris da aga rebukya, may hallans bos methek ha kemeras sham aga
> fawtys ha dre rebukys **amendia** aga lewde bewnans *‘it is well done to
> rebuke them, that they may be embarrassed and be ashamed of their faults
> and through rebukes amend their wicked life’ TH 29a
> *Christ re’th **amendya** der ras ha roy thys gwel esethva* ‘May Christ
> improve you by his grace and give you a better place to sit’ BK 396-97.
> *kebmys pehas es in byes gwrres gans tues heb **amendya** mathew dew an
> tas serrys bythquath gwyell mabe dean omma* ‘so much sin has been
> committed by men in the world without improvement, that God the Father is
> angry ever to have created manking here’ CW 2146-49
> *kemmys pehas es in beyse ha nyng es tam **amendya** mayth ew an tas dew
> serrys gans oll pobell an bys ma* ‘there is so much sin in the world and
> there is not a jot of improvement that God the Father with all the people
> of this world’ CW 2335-38
> *rag henna theth cregye me ny vannaf moy es kye na **mendya** ny venyn ny
> awoos theth gyrryau wastys* ‘therefore I will not believe you any more
> than a dog, nor will we improve for all your wasted words’ CW 2359-62
> *hag eddrag thothef yma bythquath mabe dean tha vos gwryes rag henna
> gwrewgh **amendya* ‘and he regrets that ever mankind was created,
> therefore improve’ CW 2339-41.
>
> Starting with Nance revivalists have been unhappy about borrowings from
> English in Cornish. This unhappiness, in my view, is unjustified. In the
> first place English borrowings have been in Cornish since the OC period,
> e.g. *robbior*, *lappior*, *redior*, *yurl*, *hule* 'owl', *herring*'herring' whence
> *hernen*. Indeed the presence of borrowings from Old English in OCV
> enabled Lhuyd to determine that the glossary was Cornish rather than Breton
> or Welsh. In the second place many borrowings go unnoticed, e.g. *trailya*'to turn',
> *sordya* 'to arouse', *dyghtya* 'to treat, to prepare', *gocky*'foolish'. In the third place ME borrowings are a distinctive feature of
> Middle Cornish from PA onwards. Here is the second stanza of PA
>
> Suel a vynno bos sylwys
> golsowens ow lauarow
> a ihesu del ve helheys
> war an bys avel carow
> Ragon menough *rebekis*
> ha *dyspresijs* yn harow
> yn growys gans kentrow *fastis*
> *peynys* bys pan ve marow
>
> There are four borrowed verbs in the second distich: *rebukya*, *dyspresya
> *, *fastya* and *painya*.
> Here is the first stanza of Origo Mundi:
>
> En tas a nef y'm gylwyr;
> *formyer* pup tra a vyt gvrys
> Onan ha try on yn gvyr
> en tas ha’n map ha’n spyrys
> ha hethyv me a *thesyr*
> dre ov *grath* dalleth an beys
> y lauaraf nef ha tyr
> bethens *formyys* orth ov brys
>
> *Formyer* 'creator', *desirya* 'to desire', *grath* (*grâss*) 'grace' and
> *formya* 'to create' are all borrowings from Middle English.
>
> Much revived Cornish looks so unlike real Cornish precisely because it
> avoids borrowings. Caradar understood this and used *mona* 'money', not *
> arhans*, which means 'silver'. He called a shop *shoppa*, not **gwerthjy*.
> He didn't as far as I am aware use **dewotty* but *tavern*, etc.
> If we are reviving a language without a continuous tradition of native
> speakers and without a sizeable community of people for whom Cornish is a
> first language, we should, I believe, revive the language as we find it,
> not as we would wish it to be. Otherwise we are conlanging.
>
> Nicholas
>
>
>
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:50, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
> *I think that garow / marow is an effective rhyming contrast.  I should
> have thought of garow as I have been having a discussion with Craig only
> today about this word.*
>
>
>
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