[Spellyans] Disappearance of Cornish placenames from OS maps

Christian Semmens christian.semmens at gmail.com
Wed Jan 30 13:28:15 GMT 2013


I've paid a visit to Open Street Map and started to revert some names.
Landewednack is back replacing Church Cove. I've made a few more edits and
I'll use your book, Craig, to put more on as I get time.

Christian



On 30 January 2013 13:12, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:

> OS has a lot to answer for. I presume they are responsible for changing
> the name of my hamlet from Cooks to Cocks (we have no signs as people with
> a perverted sense of humour keep stealing them).
> Who, though altered Penwethers to Penweathers near County Hall?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>wrote:
>
>> First, let me say that the current 1:100,000 O.S. travel map of Cornwall
>> is a disgrace to cartography and, as you say, Ken, the Bartholomew maps
>> were vastly better (although still with the odd mistake like showing Zennor
>> Quoit in the wrong place).
>>
>> That Oliver chose to base his book on the names shown on the previous
>> edition of that OS map was, I think, a mistake because it contains a
>> disproportionate number of non-Cornish names.
>>
>> The disappearance of Landewednack is a mystery, especially when you
>> consider that this southernmost parish is itself "Landewednack".  It's even
>> absent on the current edition of the 1:25,000 map, being replaced by
>> "Church Cove", even though it's inland.
>>
>> Church Cove, as a coastal feature, is another modern name, and is absent
>> from the 1813 1st edition 1" OS map.  in 1851, the cove was "Perran Vose"
>> but later OS maps relocated the name to another cove to the north, now
>> "Parn Voose Cove" (that awful tautology again that the OS insists on -
>> Perran/Parn is for Por(th) an [Fos]).
>>
>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith:  "Gwennap Head" didn't appear until 1888, and no one
>> can work out the origin of this.  The Gwennap family is known in St Levan
>> parish but they don't seem to have been landowners at the headland.
>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith, in various spellings, appears on all maps prior to 1888.
>>  The OS does include the name on the current 1:25,000 map, but as a minor
>> name with no real indication as to which feature it represents.  "Gwennap
>> Head" is in a larger font.  Tol-Pedn-Penwith is missing from the current
>> 1:50,000 map, the quality of which has sadly diminished in recent years.
>>  The last few editions show the fogou of Pendeen Vau in entirely the wrong
>> place.
>>
>> Just to the E of Penberth Cove, the OS show an offshore reef as
>> "Gazells", with the nearby cove as "Le Scathe Cove".  (an) gasel, "the
>> armpit", is quite obviously a cove name, reflecting its indented shape.
>>  The Burnewhall estate map of 1770 shows that the OS has transposed the two
>> names, as it clearly marks the reef as "Lech Skath", (boat ledge).
>>
>> The OS infuriatingly alters spellings, too.  The hill they show as "Carn
>> Galver" - a spelling used by the National Trust, etc.  The authentic name
>> is "Carn Galva".  The OS clearly do not understand that even the inclusion
>> of that final R alters the traditional pronunciation (as, in Cornwall, we
>> pronounce final R.  In the Home Counties, they don't - there you will hear
>> "solicituh", not "solicitor").
>>
>> You'd never know that, at Botallack Cliffs, "De Narrow Zawn" (OS) is
>> Sawen Dynerow, "pennies chasm" - there having been a rich vein of tin
>> there.  Or that the nearby Loe Warren is simply "lowarn" (fox) - animal
>> names are commonly used for coastal rock features.  Gazick (an gasek - "the
>> mare") is evidently another rock name, but the OS now applies it to a cove.
>>
>> Gurnard's Head is a relatively modern English name: there is no
>> indication on any map that it was once Ynyal, "desolate".
>>
>> Cape Cornwall is another, coined by chart makers just prior to 1600.  The
>> Cornish name can only be found on earlier maps, such as Norden's from 1584.
>>  (Kilgoodh Ust - "goose-back at St Just" - a perfect description of its
>> very distinctive shape).
>>
>> I could go on….probably for the rest of the day!!  But work calls.
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2013 Gen 29, at 16:16, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>>
>> *A gowetha-oll,*
>> * *
>> *A point was recently made on Spellyans regarding the disappearance of
>> Cornish place-names from OS maps, and in particular Tol-Pedn-Penwith and
>> Landewednack.*
>> * *
>> *Tol-Pedn-Penwith is certainly present on the recently published
>> 1:25,000 series.   Tol-Pedn-Penwith is printed on  Explorer 7 Sheet, Land’s
>> End, Penzance and St. Ives (dated 1995) at GR 365 214 .  Later editions of
>> this sheet are numbered 102.  I would be grateful for information on more
>> recently updated editions.*
>> * *
>> *The place-name Landewednack is indeed absent from Sheet 103 The Lizard,
>> Falmouth & Helston (dated  1996) at GR 712 126.   Instead Landewednack
>> Church and village are named as ‘Church Cove’.   Again, I would be grateful
>> for information on the latest edition.*
>> * *
>> *Both names occur on the OS 50,000 First Series.  Sheet 203 Land’s End
>> and The Lizard have both names on my copy of the map, dated 1974.
>>  Landewednack is printed in upright type indicting a main village, as
>> compared with Lizard printed in sloping (italic) type, indicating a
>> subsidiary village.   I would be grateful to know what the situation is on
>> the most recently published edition.  *
>> * *
>> *Does ‘Church Cove’ as the name of the settlement around Landewednack
>> church have any actual currency?  Does anyone know what its inhabitants
>> actually call it today?   Does the local council  (now Cornwall Council)
>> refer to it as ‘Landewednack’ or ‘Church Cove’?    Is there a settlement
>> sign, and if so, what name does it carry?*
>> * *
>> *The old ‘Bart’s Half-Inch’ series (Sheet 1) featured both
>> Tol-Pedn-Penwith and Landewednack, and indeed a wealth of other
>> micro-toponymy.   So did its successor the National Map Series at 1:100,000
>> scale.  Bartholomews had discontinued this series by 2000, which was a
>> great loss and pity.    A map at this scale covering the whole county area
>> was extremely useful for all sorts of purposes, and the Ordnance Survey has
>> recently published a successor.*
>> * *
>> *This is the Travel Map at the same 1:100,000 scale, Sheet 1 Cornwall.
>> My copy is Edition D, dated 2006.   Neither Tol-Pedn-Penwith nor
>> Landewednack is featured, with much else missing from the county’s
>> micro-toponymy.  However Church Cove is featured, in a font signifying a
>> minor village.   All-in-all I estimate that the map carries about 620
>> place-names.  Relief is hinted at by slight hill-shading and layer
>> colouring but only for the 200, 600, and 1,000 feet contour intervals.
>> Tourist attractions are however copiously featured, and road statuses are
>> emphasised.  These are its chief virtues.   Otherwise it is
>> cartographically much inferior to its Bart’s predecessors.*
>> * *
>> *Someone with authority should be making waves about all of this.  The
>> OS are supposed to take cognisance of local usage.   If the inhabitants of
>> Landewednack have decided to call the village ‘Church Cove’ this would
>> explain the substitution, but I think it unlikely that they have done so.
>> *
>> * *
>> *In Wales the OS gives most of the more important names bilingually.
>> In Scotland the OS is beginning to do something similar In  the Gaelic
>> areas.   In the Western Isles the local authority Comhairle nan Eilean went
>> over to monolingual Gaelic for its direction and place signage, and the OS
>> followed suit.   More recently the council fainthearts reverted to
>> bilingual usage for these.  It will be interesting to see what OS does.
>> However in Scotland at least the OS does have some sort of public awareness
>> and makes an effort to communicate and consult with its public.   What
>> happens in Cornwall?*
>> * *
>> *A few years ago a map was produced on Spellyans with place names in
>> Cornish.   The cartography was of a good standard for its scale.    There
>> is a case to carry the process a stage or two further.   There would be a
>> good level of demand for such a map, and now an increasing number of
>> uses.   It would be a useful tool In the process of re-Cornicising
>> Cornwall’s place-names, and of establishing an authoritative and
>> readily-available source of place-names based upon  sound historical,
>> linguistic and toponymic research.   A map at 1:250,000 scale (the old
>> ‘quarter-inch’ to the mile) would enable a fulsome level of detail, without
>> being too unwieldy as to size.  It would have the further virtue that its
>> selection of place-names would be of similar scope to that of Oliver
>> Padel’s ‘A Popular Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names’ (1988), in which he
>> chose to feature the names on the OS 1:25,000 scale map of Cornwall, some
>> 1,000 or so in total. (It thus omits Landewednack itself but includes
>> Church Cove, as dating from 1888 and being named from ‘Landewednack church
>> above it’, i.e. as a coastal figure and not as a settlement name.)   A
>> further resource for mapping is the Institute’s Survey of Cornish
>> Place-names.*
>> * *
>> *I believe that Bart’s can still supply at reasonable rates base maps at
>> various scales of a very high cartographic standard for overprinting with
>> place-names and other features.  The results are aesthetically attractive
>> and highly representative.*
>> * *
>> *One of the currently available tourist maps of Cornwall is subtitled
>> Kernow and has some of its more important names given bilingually.
>> However there appears to be little consistency on the spelling conventions
>> used for them.   The appearance of Cornish versions of the names on this
>> map does not appear to have frightened the horses nor to have depressed
>> sales.*
>> * *
>> *A friend of mine, Roy Pedersen, brought out a Gaelic map of Scotland
>> some years ago, and this proved a best seller, running into numerous
>> reprints and editions, and spawning a succession of more detailed area
>> maps.   I would not expect a similar initiative for Cornish mapping to run
>> at a loss.   Such an initiative is long overdue and indeed essential if
>> authentic versions of Cornish place-names are to be popularised, in place
>> of made-up names and respellings in inappropriate and non-historic
>> orthographies.   Otherwise it is Gresham’s Law.*
>> * *
>> *Gorhemmynadow – an ken Ken*
>> * *
>> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of *Janice
>> Lobb
>> *Sent:* 26 January 2013 22:32
>> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
>> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] use usage etc****
>> ** **
>>
>> I don't use Dick's spelling for the same reason - but I find him an
>> invaluable guide to pronunciation****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
>> wrote:****
>>
>> It's confusing because Dick has spelt this word (and the language in
>> general) several different ways since he began to promote Late Cornish.**
>> **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> It's why I reluctantly gave up teaching Late Cornish in the 90s.  I'd
>> teach my students one thing and, three days later, Dick would change it
>> all.  We couldn't keep going like that.  All these years later and he's
>> still doing it!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Craig****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 2013 Gen 26, at 18:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:****
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Or do you mean ‹ûsya›? This would be /ˈɪʊzjɐ/ and I would write ‹ûs› for
>> the noun and leave it to the speaker whether s/he wants to say /ɪʊs/ or
>> /ɪʊz/. ****
>>
>> Dan****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Jan 26, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Janice Lobb wrote:****
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> would you end the word with s or ss?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Daniel Prohaska <
>> daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:****
>>
>> A very good question. For the SFW Review I'm proposing <û> as the graph
>> for this lexical set. My proposal thus has two vowels with a diacritic
>> marker: the afore mentioned <û> for /iu/ in loan words and <ü> for RMC /y/
>> ~ RLC /i/ (e.g. <tüs>).
>> Dan****
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26.01.2013, at 15:04, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > SWF has usyans
>> > Dick has (amongst other things) ius
>> > How can I achieve Dick's pronunciation with a spelling that is
>> compatible with SWF/KS?****
>>
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