[Spellyans] Falmouth

Ken MacKinnon ken at ferintosh.org
Wed Apr 30 11:14:33 IST 2014


Craig and colleagues,

 

I take the points re heyl and logh to represent ‘-mouth’ in place-names like
Falmouth and Plymouth.   The problem I have with heyl is that not all
‘X–mouth’ places stand upon actual estuaries as such.

 

Similarly with regard to logh many ‘X-mouth’ places do not stand upon
sea-loch or ria-type inlets.    Although both Falmouth and Plymouth do stand
on such water-features which could be called logh in Cornish, Logh Fala
would suggest Carrick Roads to me, rather than the town on its eastern
shoreline.   Similarly Logh Plym suggests Plymouth Sound.  If this were to
be adopted for the city, how could one distinguish them in Cornish, as in
e.g. ‘The City of Plymouth, standing as it does on Plymouth Sound 
’

 

Many ‘X-mouth’ place-names in Cornwall and Devon refer to places where the
stream or river enters the sea other than by an estuary or ria/sea-loch.   I
have noted that the Cornish place-name element ben often occurs in such
cases.   This is similar to Gaelic bun = (water-)foot in such place-names as
Bun na h-Abhainn (also an Isla malt whisky!) and Bun Abhainn Eadarra
(Bunavoneadar in Isle of Harris),  Bun an Dubh-abhainn (sic – Blackwaterfoot
in Isle of Arran).

 

And what about Widemouth, as in Widemouth Bay?   How would Cornish cope with
that one?

 

If a definite map of Cornwall in Cornish were to be produced, it seems to me
that such issues would first have to be satisfactorily resolved.   I have a
map produced by Estate Publications in 2002 ISBN 1 84192 184 X ‘Official
Tourist Map Cornwall Kernow’ (approved by Cornish Tourist Board and
‘southwesttourism’).   It gives place-names in Cornish for the majority of
Cornish towns and villages, and many other features. These are stated to
have been ‘ 
 researched by Cornish Language Council, Agan Tavas & Cornish
Heritage Ltd.’   I feel that the Cornish versions of many of the place-names
might well be debatable.

 

Many thanks for any further opinions or suggestions.  – an ken Ken

 

 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig
Weatherhill
Sent: 29 April 2014 19:26
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Falmouth

 

Sadly, the Signage Panel has already decided on <Aberfala> and <Aberplymm>
for Falmouth and Plymouth.  (And why -mm in the latter?  They'll say it
denotes that the preceding vowel is short, but Y in SWF is already short, so
it doesn't need to be shown by a geminate).

 

Leaving aside those cove names which may be <lo> "spoon", rather than
<logh>, I can only find <logh> applied to a single inland site:  TOLDAVAS,
Paul (Treloghdeves 1334), and there's no obvious pool there now and no
(c.1841) field name referring to one.  Loe Pool is not an inland lake as
such:  it's a former coastal ria.  The date of the bar separating it from
the sea is disputed. 

 

Prislow, Falmouth, if it contains <logh> at all, is likely to refer to
Swanpool - a similar formation to Loe Pool.

 

Boslow, Sancreed, contains <glow> "coal, charcoal".

 

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

On 2014 Ebr 29, at 18:42, Eddie Climo wrote:





Interestingly, Craig, in the Scottish Highlands (as you may well know, you
arch-toponymist, you!), 'Logh' can refer not only to a landlocked lake but
also to what in English is often termed a 'sea loch'. From what you're
saying, it would seem that K. 'logh' is similar to a Highland 'sea loch'.

 

And, I must say, I do like the sound of 'Logh Fala' and 'Logh Plym.' Not
only does it sound awfy Celtic (unlike the loathesome anglicisms 'Falmeth'
and 'Plymoth', no matter how one chooses to spell them), it would fair
scunner the Emskemynnyonn -- those wee cow'ring timorous beasties would aye
be cacking their breeks, so they would!

 

:-)


Eddie Climo


On 29 Apr 2014, at 18:25, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> wrote:

Heyl would be the wrong word, Jon.  Only Logh- will suffice for these.  See
my reply to Ken for details.

 

Craig

 

 

 

On 2014 Ebr 29, at 17:00, Jon Mills wrote:





Heyl Fal, Heyl Plym

Jon

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken MacKinnon

Sent: 04/29/14 04:55 PM

To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list'

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Falmouth

 

A gowetha -oll, 
 
I have followed this thread regarding Falmouth/Arwennak with interest. 
 
I have noted that 'aber' does not feature in traditional Cornish 
place-names.    The present-day 'Aberfala' and 'Aberplym' are of course 
neologisms, maybe needful ones. 
 
However how would one properly say 'mouth of the river Fal', and 'mouth of 
the River Plym' in modern Cornish? 
 
- an ken Ken 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Michael

Everson 
Sent: 29 April 2014 14:06 
To: Spellyans discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Falmouth 
 
On 28 Apr 2014, at 13:09, Jon Mills <j.mills at email.com> wrote: 
 
> Would it be correct to say that Arwennek is only a part or district of 
present day Falmouth. 
 
The same can be said for Baile Átha Cliath and Duibhlinn vis à vis Dublin. 
 
> If so, it might be better to use Falmeth for the whole of present day 
Falmouth. 
 
Or Falmoth. 
 
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ 
 
 
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_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
University of Kent
http://kent.academia.edu/JonMills
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