[Spellyans] SWF review results.

Fri Mar 28 11:25:46 GMT 2014

I'll remember Golperan for next year
Jan

On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>wrote:

> Yes, it would, as it becomes unstressed, so becomes <degol>.
>
> There were some weird and wonderful ways of saying "St Piran's Day" this
> year.  Some were writing <Gool Peran>, some <Dy' Gool Pyran>, etc., but
> there's a simple traditional way of expressing this:  <Golperan>, e.g
> Golowan (gol-Jowan);  Goldsithney, originally Golsydhny (feast of St
> Sithney).
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 2014 Mer 28, at 05:36, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
> *Craig,*
>
> *Does that also apply to compound where a word with an <oo> sound gets
> compounded into another word – e.g. Degoel Enoder (St Enoder’s feast-day,
> shortly upon us) ?*
>
> -        *Ken*
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of *Craig
> Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 27 March 2014 18:29
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] SWF review results.
>
> It would, of course, shorten to <o> in plurals and derivatives (<gonyow>,
> <cosek>, etc.).
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 2014 Mer 27, at 17:38, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>
> *Craig, and friends,*
>
> *Yes I very much agree with oe – as in Goen Bren (Bodmin Moor).  I never
> felt at all at ease with oo – just a copy of an English graph.  On the OS
> maps this is often û in West Cornwall, which I also have accepted from long
> familiarity.*
>
> *Familiar too with Goenrounsen.   As a war evacuee in Summercourt I had a
> favourite ramble, down Crago Lane, past Goenrounsen to Rosewin, and back
> again!*
>
> -        *Ken*
>
>
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net<spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>
> ] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 27 March 2014 13:24
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] SWF review results.
>
> I've always said the same thing, Ken.   Surviving textual Cornish is
> limited and, therefore, we have to include place-name history in that
> category, although some disagree.
>
> After about 1600, we need to be careful, though.  Before that date, the
> records tend to be locally sourced: Pipe Rolls, Assize Rolls, etc., but
> after 1600, there is an ever-increasing amount of spelling from non-Cornish
> sources.  Many of these wrote what they THOUGHT they heard, not what they
> were actually being told by local people, hence some of the terrible
> mistakes on Tithe Maps c.1840, and the Ordnance Survey.  Just one example:
>  "Scarrabine" (St Endellion) is actually Roscarrek Bian.   How Boslowen
> ever became Bellowal (Paul) is a mystery!
>
> There is a move afoot to replace SWF <oo> with <oe>.  I find that I can't
> really disagree with this, or condemn it as a Kemmynism, for historical
> reasons.  The vast majority of the spellings of <goon> in Middle Cornish
> place-name history write <goen>.   One name, Goenrounsan (St Enoder)
> retains that spelling to this day.  <loes> and <coes> are often found, too.
>  For me <oo> is too Anglicised, but I'm sure some will disagree with me.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 2014 Mer 27, at 12:28, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>
>
> Craig,
>
> I have always felt that placenames are a valuable source for the revived
> language.  In that placenames are recorded in written documents, they are
> as valid an attestation as any other written source, and should feed into
> the principle of ‘total Corniah’.
>
> -        An ken Ken
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net<spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>
> ] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 25 March 2014 10:54
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] SWF review results.
>
> The short form <bygh> does exist, though but seems largely ignored by the
> revival.  It occurs in several place-names.
> One wonders what will happen in the SWF if current <byhan> becomes
> <byghan>.  What about the variant <bian>?  What happens to that?
> (I remain baffled why, of those two forms, one contains <y> and the other
> <i>, when the vowel is exactly the same length in both, and both should,
> under SWF rules, contain <i>).
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 2014 Mer 25, at 10:35, Nicholas Williams wrote:
>
>
>
>
> There is no justification for byghan anyway, since byghan is unattested in
> the texts. It occurs in PNN but toponymy is likely to maintain archaic
> forms. In PA beghan occurs twice. In other texts the commonest form is
> byan, byen. Tregear writes bean, Lhuyd bîan. The use of gh between
> syllables in UC was suggested by forms in PA, which was Nance's foundation
> text. PA writes arghans 'silver', vghelder, peghes, yrghys, nagha,
> fleghys, etc.
>
> On 25 Mar 2014, at 10:17, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>
>
>
> This is a step back into the dark ages. Not only does intervocalic ‹gh›
> prompt an unlikely pronunciation, it actually prompts mispronunciation as
> native English speakers who learn and speak Cornish prequently subsitute
> [k] for aspired [x] or [ɦ] ("arkans, mikturn" etc.). I have yet to hear
> KK-supporters pronounce, e.g. ‹byghan› 'small, little' as recommended by
> Ken George as [ˈbɪˑɦan]:
>
>
>
>
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